Cade Cunningham

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Re: Cade Cunningham 

Post#401 » by CptCrunch » Tue Jul 20, 2021 9:07 pm

tmorgan wrote:It’s pretty much a done deal at this point. Those that (rightly) see Cade’s lack of explosiveness as a detriment to his future performance have made their points. I understand the doubt. Just remember how many truly elite players there have been that weren’t in any way exceptional athletes in terms of speed, leaping, and quickness. Starting with Bird… and Magic.

Feel for the game, vision. change of pace, posting up smaller guards, these are all real things. Cade does them. I honestly don’t know how Cade’s NBA career will unfold, as he’s a fairly unique player. But he’s definitely worthy of the top pick for a team like Detroit.


His negatives can be summarized in a 3 points.

1/ The main criticism isn't his lack of athleticism, average in the league at best, arguably below average compared to players based on the natural position of his body size. For a superstar, average athleticism is the exception, not the norm. This isn't a huge issue for skill based players.

2/ Questionable passing IQ/questionable decision making/overrated passing skills or some other similar framing, his assist to turnover ratio is tragic for any prospect trying to play point guard in the league.

3/ Cade doesn't elevate his team like a quality PF/point forward. There is no efficiency metrics that shows that Oklahoma State is worse with him on the bench (or better on the court). This could be lumped into point 2 because Cade's main draw is his ability to play the point forward for a 6'8" player. If this part of his game doesn't work out, there is really no reason to take him as a wing prospect over other players.

All of this boils down to the thesis that Cade will be a middling point forward who will basically fit into the mold of an oversized shooting wing (with a good shot) with some play making abilities. This while being a great outcome is not an outcome you want for a #1 prospect.
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Re: Cade Cunningham 

Post#402 » by tmorgan » Tue Jul 20, 2021 10:04 pm

CptCrunch wrote:
His negatives can be summarized in a 3 points.

1/ The main criticism isn't his lack of athleticism, average in the league at best, arguably below average compared to players based on the natural position of his body size. For a superstar, average athleticism is the exception, not the norm. This isn't a huge issue for skill based players.

2/ Questionable passing IQ/questionable decision making/overrated passing skills or some other similar framing, his assist to turnover ratio is tragic for any prospect trying to play point guard in the league.

3/ Cade doesn't elevate his team like a quality PF/point forward. There is no efficiency metrics that shows that Oklahoma State is worse with him on the bench (or better on the court). This could be lumped into point 2 because Cade's main draw is his ability to play the point forward for a 6'8" player. If this part of his game doesn't work out, there is really no reason to take him as a wing prospect over other players.

All of this boils down to the thesis that Cade will be a middling point forward who will basically fit into the mold of an oversized shooting wing (with a good shot) with some play making abilities. This while being a great outcome is not an outcome you want for a #1 prospect.



1) Nonsense. No, he’s nowhere near a freak athlete like Green, but average at best is a ridiculous statement. Relatively strong, relatively fast, solid hops, not a great first step while ball handling.

2) This one i can’t in any way prove, but get ready to watch his game elevate with other competent passers and shooters around him. We’ll just have to agree to disagree.

3) Utter nonsense and a total misuse of statistics. He missed three games, and other than a loss to Baylor, OKST played well without him, I’ll give you that. In the 27 games he did play, he logged just over 35 minutes a game, mostly sitting once the game was decided either way. There’s very little on/off data to suggest he didn’t elevate Oklahoma State, a team that generally lacked talent but ended up making the second round of the tournament.

I get it. He’s not LeBron. So many people pick apart Cade’s game against a blueprint of what they want him to be but isn’t. Those same folks seem to ignore what he actually is, a skilled scorer and willing distributor with length, vision, and leadership. He’s going to get stronger and better, too.
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Re: Cade Cunningham 

Post#403 » by Charm » Tue Jul 20, 2021 10:23 pm

Even in college Cade was the worst athlete on the floor often enough...in the NBA, that's gonna be the norm for him. It's not a death sentence obviously, but it's a weakness you have to account for. It's crazy to me that some people think he's an average athlete, let alone above-average, by NBA standards.
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Re: Cade Cunningham 

Post#404 » by CptCrunch » Tue Jul 20, 2021 10:53 pm

tmorgan wrote:There’s very little on/off data to suggest he didn’t elevate Oklahoma State, a team that generally lacked talent but ended up making the second round of the tournament.


The data shows otherwise, unless you are asking me to prove a negative which cannot be done. Until you have lift some data somewhere, you are simply arguing from 'feels', that is fine since you are a Pistons fan and they are determined to take Cade #1 in the draft. But as an objective observer, I'm just stating my view here that Cade is not the clear cut #1 prospect in the draft and taking him #1 would be a monumental mistake.

From Hooplens

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I'm gonna state it again. There is no evidence that anyone has been able to produce that Cade makes an outsized a positive impact, statistically in any way, to his team success. College on/off data is very noisy, but there is literally no positive signal in the data. Cade's college based stats and advanced stats are exceptionally pedestrian for a #1 pick.
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Re: Cade Cunningham 

Post#405 » by Yuri Vaultin » Tue Jul 20, 2021 11:00 pm

Charm wrote:Even in college Cade was the worst athlete on the floor often enough...

That's just pure hyperbole.
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Re: Cade Cunningham 

Post#406 » by Charm » Tue Jul 20, 2021 11:16 pm

Yuri Vaultin wrote:
Charm wrote:Even in college Cade was the worst athlete on the floor often enough...

That's just pure hyperbole.


Well, he was certainly one of the worst athletes on his team...so whenever they played an athletic opponent, he often stood out in a bad way athletically.
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Re: Cade Cunningham 

Post#407 » by Big J » Tue Jul 20, 2021 11:18 pm

Yuri Vaultin wrote:
Charm wrote:Even in college Cade was the worst athlete on the floor often enough...

That's just pure hyperbole.


It's not, I've watched the tapes. He got by on size and shooting in college.
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Re: Cade Cunningham 

Post#408 » by clyde21 » Tue Jul 20, 2021 11:33 pm

Big J wrote:
Yuri Vaultin wrote:
Charm wrote:Even in college Cade was the worst athlete on the floor often enough...

That's just pure hyperbole.


It's not, I've watched the tapes. He got by on size and shooting in college.


size and shooting? totally not translatable. :lol:
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Re: Cade Cunningham 

Post#409 » by tmorgan » Wed Jul 21, 2021 12:45 am

Actually. there’s plenty positive from that table. The team couldn’t shoot threes (outside of Cade) to save their collective lives. 28% when he’s off the floor? Ouch. Yes, Cade took a lot of contested 2’s and didn’t convert well, the product of a team that struggled mightily to create a shot with him on the bench. FT rate? Better. PPP? Better. FT%? Better.

How can you possibly look at that chart and say there isn’t a shred of evidence that Cade helped his team’s offense? It makes me think you don’t understand the actual chart.
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Re: Cade Cunningham 

Post#410 » by tmorgan » Wed Jul 21, 2021 12:49 am

I’ll wrap up my end of this. I promise to be back, eating crow, if Cade doesn’t translate into an All Star level player. I hope those that think he’s a bad choice at #1 are back for a meal later as well if things turn out as I see them.
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Re: Cade Cunningham 

Post#411 » by Big J » Wed Jul 21, 2021 1:53 am

tmorgan wrote:I’ll wrap up my end of this. I promise to be back, eating crow, if Cade doesn’t translate into an All Star level player. I hope those that think he’s a bad choice at #1 are back for a meal later as well if things turn out as I see them.


I'll eat crow, hell I'll eat chicken **** if Cade ends up being the best player from this draft. For the record I think he'll be a great glue guy, a number one he ain't.
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Re: Cade Cunningham 

Post#412 » by bkseven » Wed Jul 21, 2021 6:56 am

Charm wrote:
Yuri Vaultin wrote:
Charm wrote:Even in college Cade was the worst athlete on the floor often enough...

That's just pure hyperbole.


Well, he was certainly one of the worst athletes on his team...so whenever they played an athletic opponent, he often stood out in a bad way athletically.



Hilarious. Go from “worst” to “one of the worst” within a matter of next post. :lol:
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Re: Cade Cunningham 

Post#413 » by bkseven » Wed Jul 21, 2021 6:59 am

Big J wrote:
tmorgan wrote:I’ll wrap up my end of this. I promise to be back, eating crow, if Cade doesn’t translate into an All Star level player. I hope those that think he’s a bad choice at #1 are back for a meal later as well if things turn out as I see them.


I'll eat crow, hell I'll eat chicken **** if Cade ends up being the best player from this draft. For the record I think he'll be a great glue guy, a number one he ain't.


There may be a wing shortage, but there shouldn’t be a shortage of chicken ****. :)
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Re: Cade Cunningham 

Post#414 » by bkseven » Wed Jul 21, 2021 7:10 am

CptCrunch wrote:
tmorgan wrote:It’s pretty much a done deal at this point. Those that (rightly) see Cade’s lack of explosiveness as a detriment to his future performance have made their points. I understand the doubt. Just remember how many truly elite players there have been that weren’t in any way exceptional athletes in terms of speed, leaping, and quickness. Starting with Bird… and Magic.

Feel for the game, vision. change of pace, posting up smaller guards, these are all real things. Cade does them. I honestly don’t know how Cade’s NBA career will unfold, as he’s a fairly unique player. But he’s definitely worthy of the top pick for a team like Detroit.


His negatives can be summarized in a 3 points.

1/ The main criticism isn't his lack of athleticism, average in the league at best, arguably below average compared to players based on the natural position of his body size. For a superstar, average athleticism is the exception, not the norm. This isn't a huge issue for skill based players.

2/ Questionable passing IQ/questionable decision making/overrated passing skills or some other similar framing, his assist to turnover ratio is tragic for any prospect trying to play point guard in the league.

3/ Cade doesn't elevate his team like a quality PF/point forward. There is no efficiency metrics that shows that Oklahoma State is worse with him on the bench (or better on the court). This could be lumped into point 2 because Cade's main draw is his ability to play the point forward for a 6'8" player. If this part of his game doesn't work out, there is really no reason to take him as a wing prospect over other players.

All of this boils down to the thesis that Cade will be a middling point forward who will basically fit into the mold of an oversized shooting wing (with a good shot) with some play making abilities. This while being a great outcome is not an outcome you want for a #1 prospect.


1. List out the nba superstar with elite athleticism vs non elite. “Not the norm.”

2. You do know you can’t get an assist if the player you pass to misses the shot right?

3. You contradicted your own point in the second line :lol: :lol:
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Re: Cade Cunningham 

Post#415 » by bkseven » Wed Jul 21, 2021 7:13 am

Big J wrote:
Yuri Vaultin wrote:
Charm wrote:Even in college Cade was the worst athlete on the floor often enough...

That's just pure hyperbole.


It's not, I've watched the tapes. He got by on size and shooting in college.


Damn I’d hate to be able to get by in college by “shooting.” I mean that’s not an important skill at all.
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Re: Cade Cunningham 

Post#416 » by God Squad » Wed Jul 21, 2021 7:48 am

Cade Cunningham hasn't stepped onto any NBA court and already he's so polarizing to some fans. Far more than the Jalens and Mobley.
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Re: Cade Cunningham 

Post#417 » by Charm » Wed Jul 21, 2021 1:12 pm

bkseven wrote:
Charm wrote:
Yuri Vaultin wrote:That's just pure hyperbole.


Well, he was certainly one of the worst athletes on his team...so whenever they played an athletic opponent, he often stood out in a bad way athletically.



Hilarious. Go from “worst” to “one of the worst” within a matter of next post. :lol:


The entire team isn't on the floor at the same time, genius.
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Re: Cade Cunningham 

Post#418 » by Big J » Wed Jul 21, 2021 2:14 pm

clyde21 wrote:
Big J wrote:
Yuri Vaultin wrote:That's just pure hyperbole.


It's not, I've watched the tapes. He got by on size and shooting in college.


size and shooting? totally not translatable. :lol:


A lot of guys in the NBA have size and shooting. That doesn’t make you worthy of the number 1 pick. In addition to his poor athleticism, Cades IQ is terrible. He doesn’t have what it takes upstairs to be a franchise guy. The best I can see him being is a good stats bad team guy.
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Re: Cade Cunningham 

Post#419 » by King Ken » Wed Jul 21, 2021 3:16 pm

clyde21 wrote:
Big J wrote:
Yuri Vaultin wrote:That's just pure hyperbole.


It's not, I've watched the tapes. He got by on size and shooting in college.


size and shooting? totally not translatable. :lol:

LMAO, Cade is a big and can shoot for any hooper on any level, him saying he's getting by off of that is not really a knock
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Re: Cade Cunningham 

Post#420 » by Big J » Wed Jul 21, 2021 3:47 pm

King Ken wrote:
clyde21 wrote:
Big J wrote:
It's not, I've watched the tapes. He got by on size and shooting in college.


size and shooting? totally not translatable. :lol:

LMAO, Cade is a big and can shoot for any hooper on any level, him saying he's getting by off of that is not really a knock


Adam Morrison also had size and shooting. You need more than that.

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