Olajuwon vs Adetokunbo: Greatest Ethnic Nigerian Player Ever?

[_qubik]

Giannis has time to build more, Hakeem has more to show, and I would still pick him over Giannis

[gmoney411]

The same way it worked for everyone else. He was faster, quicker, had a better motor, etc...guys peak athletically at the latest by around 28 and most it's more like 26.

Defense isn't just about athleticism. Hakeem became a smarter defender with age. And it's not like we are talking about a 35 year old Hakeem that was on the decline.

He really didn't become a smarter defender, his defense was mostly due to his insane athletic ability. And he is still a human and at 30-31 he was slower and less athletic. His offensive game improved around this time as he became more aware of his teammates and rudy t implemented an offense to make passing easier for him.

I think this argument has reached it's conclusion if you don't think Hakeem became a smarter defender with age. If we are going solely based on the idea that he was less athletic so he was clearly a worse defender there is nothing else to talk about.

[dhsilv2]

Defense isn't just about athleticism. Hakeem became a smarter defender with age. And it's not like we are talking about a 35 year old Hakeem that was on the decline.

He really didn't become a smarter defender, his defense was mostly due to his insane athletic ability. And he is still a human and at 30-31 he was slower and less athletic. His offensive game improved around this time as he became more aware of his teammates and rudy t implemented an offense to make passing easier for him.

I think this argument has reached it's conclusion if you don't think Hakeem became a smarter defender with age. If we are going solely based on the idea that he was less athletic so he was clearly a worse defender there is nothing else to talk about.

I mean you can look at box metric and see the drop off in rebounding for example but he was just slower and it matters. Hakeem's defense was heavily based on his foot speed.

[gmoney411]

He really didn't become a smarter defender, his defense was mostly due to his insane athletic ability. And he is still a human and at 30-31 he was slower and less athletic. His offensive game improved around this time as he became more aware of his teammates and rudy t implemented an offense to make passing easier for him.

I think this argument has reached it's conclusion if you don't think Hakeem became a smarter defender with age. If we are going solely based on the idea that he was less athletic so he was clearly a worse defender there is nothing else to talk about.

I mean you can look at box metric and see the drop off in rebounding for example but he was just slower and it matters. Hakeem's defense was heavily based on his foot speed.

Hakeem averaged 13 rebounds in 93 and 12 rebounds in 94. The 5 years before that were 12/13/14/14/12. Defensive rebounds were 9.6 in 93 and 9.1 in 94. The 5 years before were 8.3/9.4/10.4/9.8/8.6. What exactly does that show me?

[DoctorX]

I think you're confusing ethnicity and race. Giannis' race is Nigerian. Ethnically he is more Greek than Nigerian, as ethnicity speaks to the social group that you grew up in and the customs and culture that you are familiar with.

He's a mix of Greek and Nigerian culture. His race is Nigerian but he still has parts of the Nigerian culture within him. Look at an Asian american who was born in this country but whose parents are from China. Sure they have the American culture within in them from going to school and growing up here but they also retain parts of their Chinese culture due to being exposed to their parents and family at home. It's always the second generation after the first born generation that becomes fully immersed in the culture of the country they are born into.

[dhsilv2]

I think this argument has reached it's conclusion if you don't think Hakeem became a smarter defender with age. If we are going solely based on the idea that he was less athletic so he was clearly a worse defender there is nothing else to talk about.

I mean you can look at box metric and see the drop off in rebounding for example but he was just slower and it matters. Hakeem's defense was heavily based on his foot speed.

Hakeem averaged 13 rebounds in 93 and 12 rebounds in 94. The 5 years before that were 12/13/14/14/12. Defensive rebounds were 9.6 in 93 and 9.1 in 94. The 5 years before were 8.3/9.4/10.4/9.8/8.6. What exactly does that show me?

89 - 27.2%
93- 25.9
94 - 23.3

[gmoney411]

I mean you can look at box metric and see the drop off in rebounding for example but he was just slower and it matters. Hakeem's defense was heavily based on his foot speed.

Hakeem averaged 13 rebounds in 93 and 12 rebounds in 94. The 5 years before that were 12/13/14/14/12. Defensive rebounds were 9.6 in 93 and 9.1 in 94. The 5 years before were 8.3/9.4/10.4/9.8/8.6. What exactly does that show me?

89 - 27.2%
93- 25.9
94 - 23.3

So a 1.3% difference in rebounding is supposed to show that Hakeem was a worse defender? How about his second and third best DWS seasons came in 93 and 94? Does that not matter?

[70sFan]

Good lord...when Hakeem was a better defender (late 80's) he was a black hole on offense who barely ever even tried to pass, let alone was good at it. By the time his passing game to the point it was a SERIOUS weakness...his defense wasn't at Giannis's current level. Hakeem was never a better passer.

I already addressed the passing part earlier in this thread and you are right. Not really sure what you are talking about when it comes to defense though. Dream was still a great defender in the 90s and won DPOY back to back in 93 & 94.

The DPOY award is one of the worst awards in sports in terms of getting it right. Dream should have won multiple awards in the late 80's, but by 93 and 94 Dream's defense had come down to earth. he was still great, but he wasn't nearly as good as he'd been before.

Giannis now or Hakeem 94 or 95 are pretty darn similar and if anything I might give a small edge to Giannis but splitting hairs. ~89 Hakeem....that was a clear better defender.

I think that Hakeem started to decline defensively in 1994 season (though he was still absolutely amazing in that year), I wouldn't say that he was notably worse in 1993 though. His defensive peak to me is 1989-93 period.

[dhsilv2]

Hakeem averaged 13 rebounds in 93 and 12 rebounds in 94. The 5 years before that were 12/13/14/14/12. Defensive rebounds were 9.6 in 93 and 9.1 in 94. The 5 years before were 8.3/9.4/10.4/9.8/8.6. What exactly does that show me?

89 - 27.2%
93- 25.9
94 - 23.3

So a 1.3% difference in rebounding is supposed to show that Hakeem was a worse defender? How about his second and third best DWS seasons came in 93 and 94? Does that not matter?

no, that's DWS....

[dhsilv2]

I already addressed the passing part earlier in this thread and you are right. Not really sure what you are talking about when it comes to defense though. Dream was still a great defender in the 90s and won DPOY back to back in 93 & 94.

The DPOY award is one of the worst awards in sports in terms of getting it right. Dream should have won multiple awards in the late 80's, but by 93 and 94 Dream's defense had come down to earth. he was still great, but he wasn't nearly as good as he'd been before.

Giannis now or Hakeem 94 or 95 are pretty darn similar and if anything I might give a small edge to Giannis but splitting hairs. ~89 Hakeem....that was a clear better defender.

I think that Hakeem started to decline defensively in 1994 season (though he was still absolutely amazing in that year), I wouldn't say that he was notably worse in 1993 though. His defensive peak to me is 1989-93 period.

I don't have a problem giving him 93, that was by far his best season. 94 and 95 was a clear start to his decline and then after 96 he was falling off by leaps and bounds.

[gmoney411]

I already addressed the passing part earlier in this thread and you are right. Not really sure what you are talking about when it comes to defense though. Dream was still a great defender in the 90s and won DPOY back to back in 93 & 94.

The DPOY award is one of the worst awards in sports in terms of getting it right. Dream should have won multiple awards in the late 80's, but by 93 and 94 Dream's defense had come down to earth. he was still great, but he wasn't nearly as good as he'd been before.

Giannis now or Hakeem 94 or 95 are pretty darn similar and if anything I might give a small edge to Giannis but splitting hairs. ~89 Hakeem....that was a clear better defender.

I think that Hakeem started to decline defensively in 1994 season (though he was still absolutely amazing in that year), I wouldn't say that he was notably worse in 1993 though. His defensive peak to me is 1989-93 period.

This I agree with. And a lot of that had to do with him playing 41 minutes a game and carrying a heavier offensive load in 94.

[rate_]

Kareem Abdul Jabbar is also Yoruba

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[gmoney411]

89 - 27.2%
93- 25.9
94 - 23.3

So a 1.3% difference in rebounding is supposed to show that Hakeem was a worse defender? How about his second and third best DWS seasons came in 93 and 94? Does that not matter?

no, that's DWS....

But we are talking about defense. Why doesn't a stat about his defensive impact matter? Why rely on rebounding percentage? Keeping in mind that in 94 Hakeem played 41 minutes a game and took on more of an offensive load. There is no way his defensive numbers wouldn't dip in that situation.

[70sFan]

The DPOY award is one of the worst awards in sports in terms of getting it right. Dream should have won multiple awards in the late 80's, but by 93 and 94 Dream's defense had come down to earth. he was still great, but he wasn't nearly as good as he'd been before.

Giannis now or Hakeem 94 or 95 are pretty darn similar and if anything I might give a small edge to Giannis but splitting hairs. ~89 Hakeem....that was a clear better defender.

I think that Hakeem started to decline defensively in 1994 season (though he was still absolutely amazing in that year), I wouldn't say that he was notably worse in 1993 though. His defensive peak to me is 1989-93 period.

I don't have a problem giving him 93, that was by far his best season. 94 and 95 was a clear start to his decline and then after 96 he was falling off by leaps and bounds.

Yeah, I think that in 1994 his mobility started to decline (he became less consistent with his usually amazing movement), but his effort was still there and it was still absolutely ATG defensive season. In 1995 his motor declined pretty significantly and this is the year when I think he fell off with his defensive impact.

[BenoUdrihFTL]

Not yet for Giannis.

But this, and the other threads I am letting die down, will feed into my eventual planned thread on how high on the all time lists do you think Giannis could reach? Hakeem is normally ranked about #9-10, so if you are seriously arguing that Giannis could pass him, you are talking about a top 10 all time player.

And of course longevity is never guaranteed -- think how dramatically the story and sentiment would differ right now if the knee injury vs. Atlanta had been a torn ACL after all. Then his team gets swept out, Giannis is never a champion, and he's out for the next year with no absolute guarantee of being the same guy. Injuries are impossible to account for.

There was a thread from March asking which current players have the best chance of finishing top 10 alltime. I went with Giannis and it's looking like a decent pick (although he still has more work to do imo):

I think Giannis is currently best positioned to crack top 10. He already has the b2b MVPs and a DPOY (supported by insane stats), so from an individual standpoint, he's got the RS dominance with the award hardware and #s to show for it, now just imagine if he's able to win a ring or two with MIL. I assume the ring(s) would come with FMVP(s), so then add that up and he's suddenly top 10 credentialed

There's a few current top 10 guys who were at a similar point to where Giannis is now; where they were dominating the regular season and just needed the FMVPs (and the individual PS dominance which comes with that) to move into that top 10 territory. Giannis is 26yo with 2 MVPs and one DPOY, now compare that with other guys' resumes when they first started accululating rings:

Jordan: 27yo, 2 MVPs, 1 DPOY
LeBron: 27yo, 3 MVPs
Shaq: 27yo, 1 MVP
Olajuwon: 31yo, 1 MVP, 2 DPOY

So at this point, the question for Giannis essentially becomes: what are the chances an improved, playoff-dominant Giannis grabs a few rings over the next 5 or so years? I like Giannis in this poll because he's already done a lot of the work in getting top 10 qualified (RS individual awards/dominance), and he still has the time (only 26yo) and opportunity (on a capable Bucks team) to improve his game and take that next step to PS dominance. He also has the chance to build a longevity argument if he continues to stay healthy. Compare that to:

- Both Curry and Durant are already 32yo and still haven't cracked consensus top 20, so I doubt there's enough time or opportunity for top 10. Injuries have already adversely impacted longevity, and fair or not, the superteam argument has already been applied by the court of public opinion to diminish their last 3 rings

- Harden is 31yo and we know any FMVPs with the Brooklyn superteam will likewise be significantly diminished

- The rest (Luka, Zion, Embiid, Jokic) are still waiting to get started on the RS hardware component that Giannis already has

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2059893&p=89365134&hilit=Giannis#p89365134

[dhsilv2]

So a 1.3% difference in rebounding is supposed to show that Hakeem was a worse defender? How about his second and third best DWS seasons came in 93 and 94? Does that not matter?

no, that's DWS....

But we are talking about defense. Why doesn't a stat about his defensive impact matter? Why rely on rebounding percentage? Keeping in mind that in 94 Hakeem played 41 minutes a game and took on more of an offensive load. There is no way his defensive numbers wouldn't dip in that situation.

DWS is just a bad metric. It's not the worst thing on earth but it's pretty bad. But even to your point...his DWS is up because he played more minutes...

As for offensive load, Hakeem's usage went up slightly 93 to 94...not enough to explain it. Similarly his minutes went up by 1.5 per game. Bigger load, yes. Drastic? I'm not sure.

[Capn'O]

With Giannis' finals performance and playoff performance generally, this is a legitimate conversation. Comparable to Hakeem's 1995 performance against Shaq and is having a similarly dominant run.

Giannis just kicked in the the door to get into this discussion.

[gmoney411]

no, that's DWS....

But we are talking about defense. Why doesn't a stat about his defensive impact matter? Why rely on rebounding percentage? Keeping in mind that in 94 Hakeem played 41 minutes a game and took on more of an offensive load. There is no way his defensive numbers wouldn't dip in that situation.

DWS is just a bad metric. It's not the worst thing on earth but it's pretty bad. But even to your point...his DWS is up because he played more minutes...

As for offensive load, Hakeem's usage went up slightly 93 to 94...not enough to explain it. Similarly his minutes went up by 1.5 per game. Bigger load, yes. Drastic? I'm not sure.

1.5 minutes up from the previous season and 4 minutes up from the 89 season. At the total was 41 minutes a game. 41 minutes a game is insane. Nobody plays 41 minutes a game for 80 games at the age of 31 in their 10th season. The dip was going to happen.

But in summary, the idea that Hakeem was a defensive beast mostly in the 80s is wrong. In the first 5 seasons of the 90s (90-94), Hakeem was hands down the best defensive player in the league. A decline began in 94 but he was still a great defender and the best defender in the league that year and deserved the DPOY.

[dhsilv2]

But we are talking about defense. Why doesn't a stat about his defensive impact matter? Why rely on rebounding percentage? Keeping in mind that in 94 Hakeem played 41 minutes a game and took on more of an offensive load. There is no way his defensive numbers wouldn't dip in that situation.

DWS is just a bad metric. It's not the worst thing on earth but it's pretty bad. But even to your point...his DWS is up because he played more minutes...

As for offensive load, Hakeem's usage went up slightly 93 to 94...not enough to explain it. Similarly his minutes went up by 1.5 per game. Bigger load, yes. Drastic? I'm not sure.

1.5 minutes up from the previous season and 4 minutes up from the 89 season. At the total was 41 minutes a game. 41 minutes a game is insane. Nobody plays 41 minutes a game for 80 games at the age of 31 in their 10th season. The dip was going to happen.

But in summary, the idea that Hakeem was a defensive beast mostly in the 80s is wrong. In the first 5 seasons of the 90s (90-94), Hakeem was hands down the best defensive player in the league. A decline began in 94 but he was still a great defender and the best defender in the league that year and deserved the DPOY.

Hakeem's best offensive years were 93-95 and his best defensive were 89-91. Giannis is a DPOY level guy today.

I'm not sure Hakeem was better than Robinson for whatever's worth.

[rapstarter]

If we are talking greatness, I don't think it's particularly close right now, but obviously Giannis still has a lot of years left in him to catch up.