HOF chances for Khris Middleton
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Re: HOF chances for Khris Middleton
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Re: HOF chances for Khris Middleton
Winsome Gerbil wrote:ANTETOKOUNBROS wrote:]Winsome Gerbil wrote:
Klay Thompson gets overrated all the time, to the point the comparison feels outrageous while it's really not, and yet at only 1 1/2 years older (and having missed a long stretch now, so he's at about the same number of games) he's a 5x All Star, 2x All NBAer, and 3x Champion who of course basks in glow of a dynastic team and gets major bumps for his association with and team defining chemistry with Steph Curry. In short, he mattered even if the overall package might not have been that special.
This idea, conveniently and inaccurately pushed, that somehow every championship team's #2 is a HOF has nothing to do with history. To the degree that many championship team's #2s are HOFers, its because they were HOFs before and without that title, and made it happen with their greatness. Unworthies didn't suddenly become HOFers because of a title. JKidd is not in the HOF because of the title he won with Dirk. There was only 1 HOF on that team that year, but there was an old guy who was going to make it too. Nobody from Hakeem's first run was a HOFer, and Drexler already was when he joined the team midseason the next year for title #2. The 2004 Pistons had to wait to even get Big Ben in, and they still haven't gotten Billups in, and they were, by Least standards, a semi-dynasty. There's basically no HOFers at all with Middleton's profile. Which is again why I say, at age 30, playing for a small market team, it will take the Bucks turning into a mini-dynasty to get just another good SG from his era the extra glow he needs to even be considered.
Jkidd was washed when he was in his championship stint with Mavs. He would have made it without.
Yeah, that was what I was trying to say. There was only 1 HOF playing at that level on that team by that time.
That title, Hakeem's titles, feel like the comparisons. But as far as borderline talents go the Spurs Parker/Manu duo might make some sense. Except, again, they did it year after year after year and filled up fingers with rings. That sort of thing can get guys in who wouldn't make it otherwise.
In no world was Manu a boarderline talent for the hall...the guy's so criminally underrated. He had injury issues, but when that guy was on the floor there aren't 20 better wings to ever touch the ball.
Re: HOF chances for Khris Middleton
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Re: HOF chances for Khris Middleton
righterwriter wrote:I don't see All-NBA as essential to make the HOF. He might not be a top-3 SF each year, but that doesn't exclude him from having a HOF resume.
I think if MIL wins another ring that his career could be seen as similar to Joe Dumars, a supporting guy who had big moments and collected a couple rings.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/dumarjo01.html
Dumars was a 6x allstar, 5x all defensive team, and he was a finals MVP (and he was better than Thomas, it wasn't some stupid iggy one). Point being...they aren't comparable. Dumars goes to the hall without ever playing in the finals.
Re: HOF chances for Khris Middleton
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Re: HOF chances for Khris Middleton
Shouldn't he make at least one All-NBA team before being a HOF candidate?
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Re: HOF chances for Khris Middleton
dockingsched wrote:Basketball Reference has him at a 0.3% chance
Kind of puts this question into perspective. 30 yr olds that have never even been on an all nba team tend to not have good odds at making it to the HOF.
I like that BBR has a HOF probability, but I don't understand it sometimes.
It has the other Isaiah Thomas of having more of a chance to make the HOF than Rudy Gobert, even though Gobert destroys him in career accomplishments.
Re: HOF chances for Khris Middleton
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Re: HOF chances for Khris Middleton
righterwriter wrote:Winsome Gerbil wrote:righterwriter wrote:I don't see All-NBA as essential to make the HOF. He might not be a top-3 SF each year, but that doesn't exclude him from having a HOF resume.
I think if MIL wins another ring that his career could be seen as similar to Joe Dumars, a supporting guy who had big moments and collected a couple rings.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/dumarjo01.html
..and was a 6x All Star, 3x All-NBA, 5x All Defense, and considered one of the best defensive players of his era?
Again, Middleton needs a LOT more to get in any serious conversation. There was not one person n the world who even remotely had him on a HOF radar 3 weeks ago, and scoring 1 more point than Bobby Portis while watching an all timer dump in 50 in a deciding Game 6 isn't going to come anywhere close to making up that ground. You can make arguments for half a dozen other SGs in the league being able to notch a chip as Giannis's wingman this year (doesn't mean they would have, but certainly have the talent). Being a distant second fiddle is just not that big a HOF calling card unless you can really sustain it year after year and rack up lower tier accolades.
Does Isiah Thomas (the Celtics version) get more HOF credit because he made All-NBA and two all-star games?
How about Kemba Walker, who put up big stats on bad teams to earn his All-NBA and four all-star teams?
Yes...the hall voters are very obvious and clear in for example Tmac making it as a first ballot hall guy that these absolutely 100% without question or debate are more valuable.
Re: HOF chances for Khris Middleton
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Re: HOF chances for Khris Middleton
Nate505 wrote:Shouldn't he make at least one All-NBA team before being a HOF candidate?
It's pretty normal but given the size of the league and talent level, I don't think that should be a requirement at all. That's why allstar teams are a better tool, the standards of the hall aren't as high as making an all nba team. That said 8-10 WS is generally where you'd want to be to think of a season as a "hall of fame season" and Khris just misses even 8 which was me dropping the standard for the lower minutes of today.
Re: HOF chances for Khris Middleton
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Re: HOF chances for Khris Middleton
IAMZOOTED2 wrote:skones wrote:IAMZOOTED2 wrote:
there's a case to be made that the ball should have been in Jrue's hands. Not sure, they were both mad inconsistent.
There isn't a case to be made that the ball should have been in Jrue's hands. I just don't think you watched many of the Bucks playoff games. Middleton hit shot after shot after shot in HUGE moments throughout the championship run. He'd wholly earned the ball.
I disagree, but that's cool. Are you saying then, that you consider the Bucks' pecking order to be Giannis, Khris, and then Jrue?
I don't consider it to be. It is, and you're wrong. Like I said. I don't think you watched. Middleton torched Miami. Then in a rough Brooklyn series on the road, he gutted them at home. Then he single handedly won us the Atlanta series with multiple flamethrowing outbursts. Particularly his dominance in games 3 and 6. Then he became one of 25 players or so in NBA history to score 40 in a finals game in a very tight game 4 to fully grab momentum back from Phoenix. This stuff isn't up for debate or disagreement. This stuff happened. Anyone who thinks Jrue deserved to have the ball in his hands after all of that? As I said, they're wrong.
Re: HOF chances for Khris Middleton
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Re: HOF chances for Khris Middleton
Is this a joke? So I guess Brook Lopez (who has nearly as many all star appearances as Middleton) is a HOFer? Apparently too many posters have grown up in the "everyone deserves a trophy" era.
And before anyone says the HOF has very loose standards. There are roughly 350-500 NBA players that play a year. So far the basketball HOF has inducted around 190 players. A few get in that maybe shouldn't have deserved it, but there has probably been at least 20k that have played in the NBA/ABA since its inception. So the induction rate is 1%.
And before anyone says the HOF has very loose standards. There are roughly 350-500 NBA players that play a year. So far the basketball HOF has inducted around 190 players. A few get in that maybe shouldn't have deserved it, but there has probably been at least 20k that have played in the NBA/ABA since its inception. So the induction rate is 1%.
Re: HOF chances for Khris Middleton
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Re: HOF chances for Khris Middleton
Nate505 wrote:dockingsched wrote:Basketball Reference has him at a 0.3% chance
Kind of puts this question into perspective. 30 yr olds that have never even been on an all nba team tend to not have good odds at making it to the HOF.
I like that BBR has a HOF probability, but I don't understand it sometimes.
It has the other Isaiah Thomas of having more of a chance to make the HOF than Rudy Gobert, even though Gobert destroys him in career accomplishments.
In terms of their calculation defense doesn't matter which makes perfect sense as the hall voters CLEARLY don't care about it.
That said the gap between them is basically nothing. It's basically saying on their current body of work, ain't happening. Their gap however is likely as silly as it sounds based on height. The height adjustment makes sense if you look at who's in but Thomas is freaky short and Gobert freaky tall...
Re: HOF chances for Khris Middleton
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Re: HOF chances for Khris Middleton
SOA wrote:Is this a joke? So I guess Brook Lopez (who has nearly as many all star appearances as Middleton) is a HOFer? Apparently too many posters have grown up in the "everyone deserves a trophy" era.
And before anyone says the HOF has very loose standards. There are roughly 350-500 NBA players that play a year. So far the basketball HOF has inducted around 190 players. A few get in that maybe shouldn't have deserved it, but there has probably been at least 20k that have played in the NBA/ABA since its inception. So the induction rate is 1%.
I think the number of guys to play in the league is smaller than you realize
Re: HOF chances for Khris Middleton
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Re: HOF chances for Khris Middleton
dhsilv2 wrote:SOA wrote:Is this a joke? So I guess Brook Lopez (who has nearly as many all star appearances as Middleton) is a HOFer? Apparently too many posters have grown up in the "everyone deserves a trophy" era.
And before anyone says the HOF has very loose standards. There are roughly 350-500 NBA players that play a year. So far the basketball HOF has inducted around 190 players. A few get in that maybe shouldn't have deserved it, but there has probably been at least 20k that have played in the NBA/ABA since its inception. So the induction rate is 1%.
I think the number of guys to play in the league is smaller than you realize
Every year 60 new players are drafted in the NBA. The number that has played in the NBA is a lot larger than you think. Now, the list that have a 5+ year career is a shorter list.
Re: HOF chances for Khris Middleton
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Re: HOF chances for Khris Middleton
When 5 ppg players are getting in, Middleton is a shoo in
Re: HOF chances for Khris Middleton
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Re: HOF chances for Khris Middleton
SOA wrote:dhsilv2 wrote:SOA wrote:Is this a joke? So I guess Brook Lopez (who has nearly as many all star appearances as Middleton) is a HOFer? Apparently too many posters have grown up in the "everyone deserves a trophy" era.
And before anyone says the HOF has very loose standards. There are roughly 350-500 NBA players that play a year. So far the basketball HOF has inducted around 190 players. A few get in that maybe shouldn't have deserved it, but there has probably been at least 20k that have played in the NBA/ABA since its inception. So the induction rate is 1%.
I think the number of guys to play in the league is smaller than you realize
Every year 60 new players are drafted in the NBA. The number that has played in the NBA is a lot larger than you think. Now, the list that have a 5+ year career is a shorter list.
I've got 3952 players from 47 till 2015. Who am I missing? It's possible there's a minute filter or something but I don't THINK that data set has one as I've done team analysis with that data and it's matched back to data sets in basketball reference.
And 60 guys might get drafted but play? Maybe 50 play but there weren't 30 teams for the majority of NBA history.
Spoiler:
Re: HOF chances for Khris Middleton
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Re: HOF chances for Khris Middleton
He's in for sure.
Tommy Heinsohn wrote:The game is not over until they look you in the face and start crying.
RIP The_Hater
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Re: HOF chances for Khris Middleton
big fat 0 to 0.1%. he needs to carry the team and get at least all nba, dpoy, fmvp.
Doncic will be goat. Lauri will be his sidekick.
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Re: HOF chances for Khris Middleton
Better chance than he had last season, but he still had a long way to go likely.
Getting screwed out of a well deserved all-league spot in 2020 didn’t help either.
Getting screwed out of a well deserved all-league spot in 2020 didn’t help either.
AthensBucks wrote:Lowry is done.
Nurse is below average at best.
Masai is overrated.
I dont get how so many people believe in the raptors,they have zero to chance to win it all.
April 14th, 2019.
Re: HOF chances for Khris Middleton
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Re: HOF chances for Khris Middleton
DroseReturnChi wrote:big fat 0 to 0.1%. he needs to carry the team and get at least all nba, dpoy, fmvp.
The hall of fame is chalk full of players who were the 2nd or 3rd best players, and all stars, on contenders/champions. Carrying a team isn’t a HOF requirement.
But only 2 all star games and 16.8 ppg career average leave him miles away anyways.
AthensBucks wrote:Lowry is done.
Nurse is below average at best.
Masai is overrated.
I dont get how so many people believe in the raptors,they have zero to chance to win it all.
April 14th, 2019.
Re: HOF chances for Khris Middleton
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Re: HOF chances for Khris Middleton
dhsilv2 wrote:SOA wrote:dhsilv2 wrote:
I think the number of guys to play in the league is smaller than you realize
Every year 60 new players are drafted in the NBA. The number that has played in the NBA is a lot larger than you think. Now, the list that have a 5+ year career is a shorter list.
I've got 3952 players from 47 till 2015. Who am I missing? It's possible there's a minute filter or something but I don't THINK that data set has one as I've done team analysis with that data and it's matched back to data sets in basketball reference.
And 60 guys might get drafted but play? Maybe 50 play but there weren't 30 teams for the majority of NBA history.
Spoiler:
According to a Reddit user, as of 2020, there has been roughly 4500 that have played in the NBA. But I am not sure if that is taking into account guys who are 10 days who never officially got into a game. That might push it to 5k, not around 20k like I thought. Even with only 5 k though…..
That means that the basketball hall of fame has inducted 4% of people that have played in the NBA. And that’s not even including the European leagues as well.
Re: HOF chances for Khris Middleton
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Re: HOF chances for Khris Middleton
The_Hater wrote:DroseReturnChi wrote:big fat 0 to 0.1%. he needs to carry the team and get at least all nba, dpoy, fmvp.
The hall of fame is chalk full of players who were the 2nd or 3rd best players, and all stars, on contenders/champions. Carrying a team isn’t a HOF requirement.
But only 2 all star games and 16.8 ppg career average leave him miles away anyways.
yeah and guess what theres championships every yr. no ones going to nominate random 2/3rd options which can amount to hundreds after several decades. Even giannis wasnt considered a true number 1 and more of number 2. These scrubs are usual championship 3rd/4th and im being very generous. HOF belongs to mvp level players who havent won anything and even there will be a lot of those guys considering Jokic got one and embiid too likely.
Doncic will be goat. Lauri will be his sidekick.