Does Kobe Bryant have the 2 Greatest Titles in Laker history?

[Strepbacter]

The Lakers from 08-10 beat as many 50+ win teams as Magic did in his career. If he played weak comp, then what the hell does that say about Magic?

[Strepbacter]

The numbers you posted aren't relative to opponent.

Then post sources or something, because I couldn't find one place where the Lakers had those ratings.

And if you're "not interested in their tougher series", I'm sure you don't care about the teams they went up against either.

They're relative to opponent and weighted for games played. I'm not going to do your work for you, but yeah, they were much better on offense than defense from 08-10. That's a fact.

This not only sounds like absolute bull, considering I listed every series the Lakers played from 2008 to 2010 from BBREF, but also sounds entitled as all hell.

"Sources: trust me dude"

I already gave you the numbers for the regular season and postseason. I already explained to you that the postseason numbers are adjusted against opponent quality and weighted for games played. I don't really care if you believe me or not. They were much better on offense than defense from 08-10. Fact.

[TheRealKaboom]

Pau Gasol is quickly becoming the most underrated player on this forum.

More like the most overrated. Guy made one All-Star team in seven seasons before joining LA and now you've got a bunch of people claiming he was the best player on the Lakers from 08-10. It's utterly insane. Dude didn't receive a single MVP vote in his entire career lol.

Gasol made one allstar team because he was playing behind Duncan/KG/Dirk/Webber and even Brand. How the hell do you get any awards when he played in the golden era of PFs? That does not take away from how good he was.

Lakers were seen as a really stacked team where only the Celtics rivaled them. Bynum/Gasol/Odom was easily the best front court in the NBA.

We saw how Kobe was during the post Shaq and pre Gasol years. He even requested a trade and got booed loudly by his own hometown fans before he was gifted Gasol by Laker Legend Jerry West.

Kobe booed loudly by his own hometown fans?

Oh man, you must not be from SoCal.

[Franco]

They're relative to opponent and weighted for games played. I'm not going to do your work for you, but yeah, they were much better on offense than defense from 08-10. That's a fact.

This not only sounds like absolute bull, considering I listed every series the Lakers played from 2008 to 2010 from BBREF, but also sounds entitled as all hell.

"Sources: trust me dude"

I already gave you the numbers for the regular season and postseason. I already explained to you that the postseason numbers are adjusted against opponent quality and weighted for games played. I don't really care if you believe me or not. They were much better on offense than defense from 08-10. Fact.

So you were never interested in actual discussion, just on trying to pat yourself on the back. Well, at least that makes things easier for me, have fun buddy.

[mademan]

It's all relative. The 08-10 Lakers had the best or close 2nd best talent in the league to the C's over that span, and they ended up splitting with them (while winning 1 while they were injured).

But this is why i think all these guys legacy will grow with time. The best team (besides the C's 1 time) that those Kobe Lakers beat was probably the Carmelo Nuggets. Like, the Lakers werent a superteam, but it's not like they were going up against super teams.

[Strepbacter]

This not only sounds like absolute bull, considering I listed every series the Lakers played from 2008 to 2010 from BBREF, but also sounds entitled as all hell.

"Sources: trust me dude"

I already gave you the numbers for the regular season and postseason. I already explained to you that the postseason numbers are adjusted against opponent quality and weighted for games played. I don't really care if you believe me or not. They were much better on offense than defense from 08-10. Fact.

So you were never interested in actual discussion, just on trying to pat yourself on the back. Well, at least that makes things easier for me, have fun buddy.

No, I said they were far better on offense than defense, which they were. You decided to get into a silly semantics game and now you'll whining about nothing.

Take it easy buddy.

[og15]

Gasol made one allstar team because he was playing behind Duncan/KG/Dirk/Webber and even Brand. How the hell do you get any awards when he played in the golden era of PFs? That does not take away from how good he was.

Lakers were seen as a really stacked team where only the Celtics rivaled them. Bynum/Gasol/Odom was easily the best front court in the NBA.

We saw how Kobe was during the post Shaq and pre Gasol years. He even requested a trade and got booed loudly by his own hometown fans before he was gifted Gasol by Laker Legend Jerry West.

Again, the revisionist history is insane. Webber only made the playoffs during Gasol's first two seasons in the league. What was the excuse for '04, '05, and '07? Elton Brand???? lmao

Kobe got boo'ed opening night in '07-08. By the end of the game, the crowd was chanting MVP after Kobe almost spearheaded a crazy comeback against the Rockets. That was the end of the boos as Kobe would have a Gasol-less Lakers competing for the #1 seed before the trade was made.

Sure, take Webber out there for those years but that still leaves Duncan/KG/Dirk all in their primes (who most have in their top 25 players of all time). Brand had some MVP calibre years with the Clippers so I wouldn't laugh at him either.

Also, feel free to check out Ginobili's and Parker's resumes, which might make you think they weren't that good because they didn't make many allstar teams too.

Things like All-Star teams have to be cited with context of course. Gasol in the East in those same seasons would have been an All-Star every season, but does that make him a better player than he was? Injuries also factored into some of his lack of All-Star selection clout.

Bosh was a 5 time All-Star before playing with LeBron and Wade, if he was playing in the West and not on a high winning team, he would have had how many before joining Miami? Two? Would that make him an in inferior player.

I saw a comparison of Gasol to West based on the pts/rebs/ast slashes. David West was a solid player, borderline All-Star guy, but not a perennial All-Star or a guy who would be the second best player on a championship team. If we just go by slashes, 09-10, Monta Ellis: 26/4/5, Wade: 27/5/7. Now we have to add context, right? For Pau and West. Gasol had more size, superior passer, better shot creator and back to the basket player, could be used interchangeably at PF/C more so than West, superior rim protector. West was a better long mid-range shooter. Before being a Lakers Gasol had a career 56.6 TS%, West's high as a Hornet in 09-10 was 56.0%.

So while the slashes say one thing, their different specific abilities suggest these are not exactly the same level of players, even though West was good. Just like Al Jefferson could match some superior players in slash lines, but not close in impact.

The Lakers had a very good team, and as always, how good your team and you supporting cast needs to be is always relative to whom your opponents are, these things don't happen in a vacuum. No, Gasol was not better than Kobe, lol, doesn't mean he never had more impact in singular games or even in a series.

[Strepbacter]

It's all relative. The 08-10 Lakers had the best or close 2nd best talent in the league to the C's over that span, and they ended up splitting with them (while winning 1 while they were injured).

But this is why i think all these guys legacy will grow with time. The best team (besides the C's 1 time) that those Kobe Lakers beat was probably the Carmelo Nuggets. Like, the Lakers werent a superteam, but it's not like they were going up against super teams.

Except the 08 Lakers weren't the second most talented team in the league. Not after the Bynum injury. The 09 Lakers were, but they were one of the best teams ever. It's not like they underachieved. In fact, they were better than the sum of their parts

And I'm pretty sure the best team they beat in 09 was a 59 win team/6.5 SRS Magic team that was #1 in DRTG and a had a defensive rating that was 6.5 points better than league average (a top twenty mark in the history of the league). Oh, and had the DPOY and a top five player on it.

They also beat a 56 win/6.9 SRS Jazz team in 08. And a 56 win/5 SRS Spurs team in the next round. Couple of other teams in 2010 were also probably better than that 09 Nuggets team.

[ceiling raiser]

It's all relative. The 08-10 Lakers had the best or close 2nd best talent in the league to the C's over that span, and they ended up splitting with them (while winning 1 while they were injured).

But this is why i think all these guys legacy will grow with time. The best team (besides the C's 1 time) that those Kobe Lakers beat was probably the Carmelo Nuggets. Like, the Lakers werent a superteam, but it's not like they were going up against super teams.

Except the 08 Lakers weren't the second most talented team in the league. Not after the Bynum injury. The 09 Lakers were, but they were one of the best teams ever. It's not like they underachieved. In fact, they were better than the sum of their parts

And I'm pretty sure the best team they beat in 09 was a 59 win team/6.5 SRS Magic team that was #1 in DRTG and a had a defensive rating that was 6.5 points better than league average (a top twenty mark in the history of the league). Oh, and had the DPOY and a top five player on it.

They also beat a 56 win/6.9 SRS Jazz team in 08. And a 56 win/5 SRS Spurs team in the next round. Couple of other teams in 2010 were also probably better than that 09 Nuggets team.

With an aging Bowen/Finely and Manu missing the entire playoffs.

[mademan]

It's all relative. The 08-10 Lakers had the best or close 2nd best talent in the league to the C's over that span, and they ended up splitting with them (while winning 1 while they were injured).

But this is why i think all these guys legacy will grow with time. The best team (besides the C's 1 time) that those Kobe Lakers beat was probably the Carmelo Nuggets. Like, the Lakers werent a superteam, but it's not like they were going up against super teams.

Except the 08 Lakers weren't the second most talented team in the league. Not after the Bynum injury. The 09 Lakers were, but they were one of the best teams ever. It's not like they underachieved. In fact, they were better than the sum of their parts

And I'm pretty sure the best team they beat in 09 was a 59 win team/6.5 SRS Magic team that was #1 in DRTG and a had a defensive rating that was 6.5 points better than league average (a top twenty mark in the history of the league). Oh, and had the DPOY and a top five player on it.

They also beat a 56 win/6.9 SRS Jazz team in 08. And a 56 win/5 SRS Spurs team in the next round. Couple of other teams in 2010 were also probably better than that 09 Nuggets team.

I hate using SRS over top talent. A Melo led team should not beat a Kobe led team given equal talent supporting cast, and it wasnt even equal as the Lakers had the better support. Ditto for the Magic/Dwight. Using SRS ill lead to you to believe a team like 2018 Raptors were amazing or that this years Jazz were. Theyre RS squads who falter cause their top end talent isnt great in the playoffs.

And if the 08 Lakers werent the 2nd most talented team in the league, i honestly wonder who was. Pau Gasol/Odom as your 2nd and 3rd vs the other top teams at the time (Cavs had Mo will/Ilgauskas, Jazz had Kirilenko/Boozer, 08 spurs at the end of their run was probably best comp in the West, edit: nvm didnt lose manu, believed the other guy). And who really cares if Dwight's the DPOY if the Lakers 2nd best player outplays him in the finals?

You really think Lakers werent 2nd most talented team? Top end talent wise, their 2nd/3rd options were easily the best amongst the non-Celtics teams.

[MrPerfect1]

The 50s 70s, and 80s Laker teams were all bonafide superteams featuring 3-5 hall of famers each. The Shaq-Kobe Lakers featured possibly the greatest duo in Nba history. The 2020 Lakers was the bubble season.

So that leaves the '09/'10 Lakers teams. These rosters are by far the least stacked title teams in Laker history. They are the only Laker teams not to feature multiple superstars and ATGs. They also faced some of the stiffest competition in Laker history. Out of the 8 playoff series they won 7 were against 50 win teams. They capped it off with a win over a Celtics superteam featuring 4 Hall of Famers.

Considering he wasn't playing with other superstars and ATGs, given the competition he faced, plus the fact he beat a Celtics superteam...can we say that Kobe Bryant has the 2 greatest championships in Lakers history?

The stiffest competition in Lakers history?

They were down 1-0 to the Rockets when Yao went down an injury. They played 7 games with a shite rockets team lead by Ron Artest. And the Celtics were the odds on title favorites before KG got hurt.

The Celtics WITHOUT KG took the Magic to 7 games, who ended up going to face the Lakers. And that series was closer than it appears with 2 games coming down to the wire.

They were so lucky to win that 2009 title with Yao and KG injuries. Dude, you know that stupid posts like this by fan boys are what give fuel to Kobe haters right?

Please. They had a +8 differential against the Rockets.

That series wasn't even close. At all. And the Celtics weren't beating them with or without KG.

The 09 Lakers were one of the best teams of all-time.

Kobe haters have to some of the most ignorant people in sports.

The 09 Lakers are nowhere in the Greatest Teams discussions. Heck, there are numerous past Lakers teams that would roll them, much less factoring in the rest of the NBA

[Strepbacter]

It's all relative. The 08-10 Lakers had the best or close 2nd best talent in the league to the C's over that span, and they ended up splitting with them (while winning 1 while they were injured).

But this is why i think all these guys legacy will grow with time. The best team (besides the C's 1 time) that those Kobe Lakers beat was probably the Carmelo Nuggets. Like, the Lakers werent a superteam, but it's not like they were going up against super teams.

Except the 08 Lakers weren't the second most talented team in the league. Not after the Bynum injury. The 09 Lakers were, but they were one of the best teams ever. It's not like they underachieved. In fact, they were better than the sum of their parts

And I'm pretty sure the best team they beat in 09 was a 59 win team/6.5 SRS Magic team that was #1 in DRTG and a had a defensive rating that was 6.5 points better than league average (a top twenty mark in the history of the league). Oh, and had the DPOY and a top five player on it.

They also beat a 56 win/6.9 SRS Jazz team in 08. And a 56 win/5 SRS Spurs team in the next round. Couple of other teams in 2010 were also probably better than that 09 Nuggets team.

With an aging Bowen/Finely and Manu missing the entire playoffs.

Manu didn't miss the entire playoffs. What are you talking about?

[Strepbacter]

It's all relative. The 08-10 Lakers had the best or close 2nd best talent in the league to the C's over that span, and they ended up splitting with them (while winning 1 while they were injured).

But this is why i think all these guys legacy will grow with time. The best team (besides the C's 1 time) that those Kobe Lakers beat was probably the Carmelo Nuggets. Like, the Lakers werent a superteam, but it's not like they were going up against super teams.

Except the 08 Lakers weren't the second most talented team in the league. Not after the Bynum injury. The 09 Lakers were, but they were one of the best teams ever. It's not like they underachieved. In fact, they were better than the sum of their parts

And I'm pretty sure the best team they beat in 09 was a 59 win team/6.5 SRS Magic team that was #1 in DRTG and a had a defensive rating that was 6.5 points better than league average (a top twenty mark in the history of the league). Oh, and had the DPOY and a top five player on it.

They also beat a 56 win/6.9 SRS Jazz team in 08. And a 56 win/5 SRS Spurs team in the next round. Couple of other teams in 2010 were also probably better than that 09 Nuggets team.

I hate using SRS over top talent.

Yeah, that's silly. A team goes way beyond their top three.

And SRS is a much better indicator of team strength than whatever you're going with, though it's hardly perfect. The 08 Lakers were no more talented than several other teams. Good thing they had the best player in the world.

He's the guy that put them over the top.

[Stannis]

I really don't think the 2008-2011 Lakers were that bad as some believe.

Those teams were coached to perfection. Yeah, they had lot of guys that look whack on paper. But they did their jobs.

It reminds of the Phil Jackson's 2nd repeat with the Bulls. A top heavy team for sure. But the veterans and role players did their job and it well. And their careers were a sharp downhill right after.

[ceiling raiser]

Except the 08 Lakers weren't the second most talented team in the league. Not after the Bynum injury. The 09 Lakers were, but they were one of the best teams ever. It's not like they underachieved. In fact, they were better than the sum of their parts

And I'm pretty sure the best team they beat in 09 was a 59 win team/6.5 SRS Magic team that was #1 in DRTG and a had a defensive rating that was 6.5 points better than league average (a top twenty mark in the history of the league). Oh, and had the DPOY and a top five player on it.

They also beat a 56 win/6.9 SRS Jazz team in 08. And a 56 win/5 SRS Spurs team in the next round. Couple of other teams in 2010 were also probably better than that 09 Nuggets team.

With an aging Bowen/Finely and Manu missing the entire playoffs.

Manu didn't miss the entire playoffs. What are you talking about?

I thought you were talking about 09. Why would the 08 Spurs they beat en route to a Finals whiplashing be relevant?

[Strepbacter]

With an aging Bowen/Finely and Manu missing the entire playoffs.

Manu didn't miss the entire playoffs. What are you talking about?

I thought you were talking about 09. Why would the 08 Spurs they beat en route to a Finals whiplashing be relevant?

Read the post I was responding to. Carefully. I'm sure you'll get there... eventually.

[Cabbage bulls]

Lolol I think this thread was made to throw shade at Pau in order to get Hellcrooner triggered

[mademan]

Except the 08 Lakers weren't the second most talented team in the league. Not after the Bynum injury. The 09 Lakers were, but they were one of the best teams ever. It's not like they underachieved. In fact, they were better than the sum of their parts

And I'm pretty sure the best team they beat in 09 was a 59 win team/6.5 SRS Magic team that was #1 in DRTG and a had a defensive rating that was 6.5 points better than league average (a top twenty mark in the history of the league). Oh, and had the DPOY and a top five player on it.

They also beat a 56 win/6.9 SRS Jazz team in 08. And a 56 win/5 SRS Spurs team in the next round. Couple of other teams in 2010 were also probably better than that 09 Nuggets team.

I hate using SRS over top talent.

Yeah, that's silly. A team goes way beyond their top three.

And SRS is a much better indicator of team strength than whatever you're going with, though it's hardly perfect. The 08 Lakers were no more talented than several other teams. Good thing they had the best player in the world.

He's the guy that put them over the top.

Sure. 2018 Lebron was absolutely insane for beating a historic SRS team in the Raptors with Kevin Love and George Hill as his next best teammates. Or Paul George is a monster for carrying the Clippers over the Jazz this year after Kawhi went down. We should be talking about those as some of the greatest upsets of all time. There's a reason we dont. We can tell the difference between a RS squad and a playoff one

[Winsome Gerbil]

smh

Trapped between Kobe stans and Pau stans I think I'll just step back.

Pau was overrated as a 'superstar" -- he never was. But he was absolutely a borderline All Star guy with a ton of talent, just couched in that old school Euro lack of assertiveness thing.

And Kobe/Pau/Bynum/Odom, with oh, by the way, PHIL JACKSON, with some key roleplayers like Derek Fisher, Trevor Ariza, Metta etc. were a pretty damn glittering stack of talent at the time.

[Strepbacter]

I hate using SRS over top talent.

Yeah, that's silly. A team goes way beyond their top three.

And SRS is a much better indicator of team strength than whatever you're going with, though it's hardly perfect. The 08 Lakers were no more talented than several other teams. Good thing they had the best player in the world.

He's the guy that put them over the top.

We can tell the difference between a RS squad and a playoff one

And none of this changes the fact that SRS is by far the best metric we have for evaluating team strength. That does not make it perfect or anything like that. They still played and beat several teams that were superior to the 09 Nuggets. Period.