Does Kobe Bryant have the 2 Greatest Titles in Laker history?

[laronprofit9]

The way these replies are in this thread you would think Kobe was a detriment to the 08-10 Lakers. They went to 3 finals and won 2 of them inspite of him.


Idk, but I think the Lakers probably don’t make it to the finals all three seasons between 2008 to 2010 without him. What do you think?:

2008 1st Round Playoffs Kobe Bryant vs Denver Nuggets

33.5 ppg 5.3 rpg 6.3 apg 50%fg 33%3P 74%FT

2008 2nd Round Playoffs Kobe Bryant vs Utah Jazz

33.2 ppg 7.0 rpg 7.2 apg 49%fg 21%3P 83%FT

2008 3rd Round Playoffs Kobe Bryant vs San Antonio Spurs

29.2 ppg 5.6 rpg 3.8 apg 53%fg 33%3P 91%FT

2009 3rd Round Playoffs Kobe Bryant vs Denver Nuggets

34.0 ppg 5.8 rpg 5.8 apg 48%fg 34%3P 93%FT

2009 NBA Finals Kobe Bryant vs Orlando Magic

32.4 ppg 5.6 rpg 7.4 apg 43%fg 36%3P 84%FT

2010 2nd Round Playoffs Kobe Bryant vs Utah Jazz

32.0 ppg 3.8 rpg 5.8 apg 52%fg 25%3P 87%FT

2010 3rd Round Playoffs Kobe Bryant vs Phoenix Suns

33.7ppg 7.2 rpg 8.3 apg 52%fg 43%3P 88%FT

[IgorK]

The KobePau Lakers were a great team. Monstrous size and skill in the frontcourt, Kobe unstoppable in the triangle. I'd argue that after Kevin Garnett's knee injury, those Lakers were clearly the best team in the league. Orlando was a very good team and the Lakers handled them. I don't look at the West as being crazy competitive during those years. Phoenix had faded (until a quick weird scrappy comeback in 2010), San Antonio was taking a mini-break from being good. The best teams (the ones the Lakers beat) were Billups/Melo Nuggets, The D-Will/Boozer Jazz, and then that scrappy comeback Steve Nash season Suns. Houston was supposed to be big competition, but McGrady and Yao barely even played together in the playoffs (Lakers beat them with both injured). I think those Lakers would be competitive against anyone in any year, they were a great team. But we can't pretend that they were whooping juggernauts on the way to their titles.

Damn that's a monster heap of disrespect to the top teams of those years. The Spurs, Nuggets, Blazers, Cavs, Celtics, and Magic would like to have a word with you outside, sir

[LakersLegacy]

Pau Gasol was a one time all-star before joining the Lakers. Let's not act like he was some superstar when he arrived. Kobe made Gasol, not the other way around.

Pau was a legit star before Kobe. He lead the Grizzlies to the playoffs 3 times in a stacked Western Conference.

He lead the Grizzles to 0-12, swept, swept, swept. But Pau did make 1 all-star team before coming to LA. Pau didn’t win a single play—off game until he became a Lakers. Pau had one of the worst all-time play-off records as winless in the play-offs, losing all 12 play-off games. And he was soft before he wasn’t in LA

[LakersLegacy]

It was an impressive to actually win championships without Shaq, after play-off starters Smush-Kwame-Luke we’re wasting the prime of Kobe’s career.

After Shaq rapped tell me how my ass taste to mock Kobe. After having to get your team to try as hard as you to win and get a Ayer like Pau. And then trying to get your teammate to get tougher by trucking him at the gold medal game of the 2008 Olympics. Pretty impressive for a 6-6 often injured and played through it guard to win more titles than the Goliath that is giant Shaq. Pretty impressive to carry the torch and be a basketball ambassador for decades. LeBron said on ABC the year he went to his first Finals that Kobe was the best in the game. Dirk said it. AI said it. Kobe gave LeBron shoes in highschool. They didn’t fit. LeBron still wore them. They are painted with the American flag on them. To win and carry the weight of having to outwork everyone. To lose after putting in that work. And then to keep going to win back to back championships is pretty epic.

The 2001 championship is also epic. For a pair of players to average 60+ points in the Finals while also being the closer was pretty epic. Magic’s starting at center is also epic. So is West finally winning after losing so much to the Celtics in 72 with Wilt.

The championships meant more with a life long Laker than the toon squad. But every championship is gravely appreciated. Milwaukee gets it right now. It taste sweeter when the guy has only ever played in your uniform. And overcame losing and kept putting in the work. Those championships are the most special. And they take the longest and are the hardest to win.

[azapikoa]

lol @ Kobe fanboys

[DoctorX]

Pau Gasol was a one time all-star before joining the Lakers. Let's not act like he was some superstar when he arrived. Kobe made Gasol, not the other way around.

Pau was a legit star before Kobe. He lead the Grizzlies to the playoffs 3 times in a stacked Western Conference.

He lead the Grizzles to 0-12, swept, swept, swept. But Pau did make 1 all-star team before coming to LA. Pau didn’t win a single play—off game until he became a Lakers. Pau had one of the worst all-time play-off records as winless in the play-offs, losing all 12 play-off games. And he was soft before he wasn’t in LA

He lost to '04 Spurs, '05 Suns, '06 Mavs. All 3 teams were title contenders and were the second best team in the playoffs the years Gasol face them. Suns and Mavs both won 60 plus games when they faced Gasol and the Spurs won 57 games. Really hard to get a win against those teams when your supporting cast is just Shane Battier,Mike Miller.

Kobe's track record without Gasol wasn't that good either. He missed the playoffs in '05. In '06 he got to face a watered down Suns team that didn't have Amare and still blew a 3-1 team. When he had to face the same Suns team that Gasol faced in '05 during the '07 playoffs he ended up only doing slightly better by winning 1 game against them and losing in 5.

I don't buy into that garbage that Kobe made Gasol better. Both needed each other to win games.

[Strepbacter]

West contenders have nearly never been weaker than 09/10 ( before this past season), add a kg injury to that and there’s your answer

Nah. The West was incredible from 08-10. It's not like LeBum playing historically weak competition in the East. And the Celtics wouldn't have beaten the 09 Lakers with or without KG.

[Strepbacter]

Pau titles when there's a very good argument you weren't even the best player on the team for the

This is why Pau is hilariously overrated. People really think he was anywhere near a top three player in the league lmao. He wasn't even top ten and was nowhere Bryant.

This is why I said Pau is getting extremely overrated. He wasn't even in the same universe as 2010 Kobe. One guy was a top three player in the world and the other was barely top ten lmao. There's a 2010 Kobe crushes him in ALL the impact metrics.

We're talking about a guy who is top 2-3 and MVP level vs a dude who barely in the top ten and barely in the top ten. Your "advanced stats" are 100% box-score derived and not a measure of impact.

Dude wasn't even close to 2010 Kobe. There's a reason Kobe DESTROYS him in all the impact metrics.


They weren't close at all. One was a top three player and the other was maybe in the top ten (I have him top ten in both years, but it's arguable). You have two guys whose impact comes almost entirely because of their offense and one of them is a much better scorer, a better passer, and a much better play-maker with a level of gravity that Pau isn't touching. PER, WS, and BPM are 100% box-score derived and aren't measures of impact. The impact metrics we DO have have Bryant crushing Pau across the board.



NPI 2010 (post-season included)

Bryant: 4.15

Gasol: 1.66

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/11181n4avq5wefk/AAAZ4muMkVh3aNDYIzq_NNHEa?dl=0&preview=2010.txt



PI 2010 (post-season included)

Bryant: 5.17

Gasol: 3.21

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/teutg7zvxudqnlw/AAAUkNkDUG0KWeewPZbnwS2ja?dl=0&preview=2010.txt



NPI Playoff RAPM (post-season only)

Bryant: #2 in the league

Gasol: #16 in the league

https://basketball-analytics.gitlab.io/rapm-data/season/2009-10/playoffs/



RS only:

Bryant: 5.6

Gasol: 1.4

https://sites.google.com/site/rapmstats/2010-rapm



CORP (Championship Odds Over Replacement Player)

2010 Kobe: +5.1

2010 Pau: +1.6

http://www.backpicks.com



In 2125 possesions with Kobe on and Pau off the Lakers were a +7.8 team

In 1277 possesions with Kobe off and Pau on the Lakers were a +0.7 team



RS on/off:

Kobe: +12.4

Pau: +3.5



PS on/off:

Kobe: +7.6

Gasol: +5.3



RS on/off (NBA.com)

Kobe: +11.0

Pau: +2.8



PS on/off (NBA.com)

Kobe: +7.8

Pau: +5.1



RAPTOR WAR +/- (heavily influenced by box-score) including postseason:

Kobe: +15.7 (#3 in the league)

Pau: Outside the top 12

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-our-raptor-metric-works/



Obviously these numbers aren't gospel, but we see a similar story in 2009 and 2008.

PI 2009

Kobe: +6.2

Pau: +3.1

https://sites.google.com/site/rapmstats/rapm



In 424 minutes with Kobe on and Pau off they had a +8.1 net rating

In 464 minutes with Kobe on and Pau off they had a -1.81 net rating



RS On/Off (basketball-ref)

Kobe: +11.4

Pau: +4.5

Kobe was the far better player and his impact obliterates Pau. "Yeah, he was the far better and more impactful player.



This was Pau's resume before he joined LA:



This was Pau's resume in six seasons before he joined LA.



1 All-Star team

0 All-NBA teams

0 MVP votes

Made post-season three times, swept in all three appearances

Not even regarded as top five at his own position

Consensus top 20-25 type in the league



These were his RAPM numbers:

2002: -0.3 (256)

2003: -0.8 (254)

2004: -0.2 (153)

2005: 1.4 (61)

2006: 1.3 (64)

2007: 0 (140



04-05 Memphis Grizzlies:



27-26 with Pau Gasol

18-11 without Pau Gasol


"Very good argument" lmao.

It's insane how people this nonsense. Pau better than a top three player in the world.

[Jimmy Recard]

West contenders have nearly never been weaker than 09/10 ( before this past season), add a kg injury to that and there’s your answer

Nah. The West was incredible from 08-10. It's not like LeBum playing historically weak competition in the East. And the Celtics wouldn't have beaten the 09 Lakers with or without KG.

You’re basing this on what exactly? I’d argue the 09 Celtics were even better than the 08 before KG got hurt.

[MambaVenom24]

@Strepbacter solid research but its going to be ignored by the haters.

I was responding to another thread about greatness and circumstances and I started venting about Lamar Odom and his inconsistency and mental issues that eventually derailed him from the mavericks during the season after the trade and eventually out of nba and on tmz news that he was almost dead from a drug overdose and it was when posting there that it hit me. Kobe's cast for his last 2 rings is always viewed as out of this world frontcourt domination juggernaut and I was on that train too, until I started venting about Lamar (I had this thread in the back of my mind I admit).

It's always said in these forums that hey Lebron carried x bums to the nba finals which is true to some extent, but I am looking at the 2008-2010 Lakers and we have:
- Pau, criminally overrated by the anti kobe crowd (HE DA REAL MP3 OF FINALS BOOOO !!!), criminally underrated by some laker fans and in a vacuum I would take Irving and Wade over him in terms of magnitude, he is second tier behind them
- Bynum , Odom both out off the league in short time after they left the lakers
- Metta World Peace, Panda's friend or Ron Artest ( do I even need to make an argument for this guy mental health? )
- the rest off the role players, Farmar, Fisher , Radmanovic, Shannon Brown (he actually caught a lot of minutes), Mbenga, Vujacic, I am sure I miss some, but you get the point

What Pau achieved before Kobe was said before, after D'Antoni debacle he didn't had much success either. Bynum and Odom one was the mocking subject off the forum with the bowling injury and the other out off the league in no time. Look at what the supporting cast of Kobe achieved without him and then you realize hey, Kobe carried a lot of headcases to the promised land and made them tick and fall in line . When the disease of "more" touched the Lakers at the end they got their collective asses kicked and swept by Dirk in a similarly Detroit fashion.

If i was comparing the frontcourt and replacing with other players, it would be as if Kobe won with lets say a Bosh (the in the paint version not the Miami perimeter player - because Lebron needed to lane to be open) to replace Pau and I would put Roy Hibbert or Larry Sanders for Andrew Bynum, rest off the cast would remain similar and I am not going to start replacing all, but you get my point hopefully.

I don't expect this to change the opinion of anyone, but I find it funny that revisiting this 11 years later I can say that those rings look much more impressive to me now than they did back then.

- quick edit, Ariza I can say had a good vibe after the Laker runs and carried some momentum as a player

[Slim Charlez]

West contenders have nearly never been weaker than 09/10 ( before this past season), add a kg injury to that and there’s your answer

Nah. The West was incredible from 08-10. It's not like LeBum playing historically weak competition in the East. And the Celtics wouldn't have beaten the 09 Lakers with or without KG.

[Doranku]

West contenders have nearly never been weaker than 09/10 ( before this past season), add a kg injury to that and there’s your answer

Nah. The West was incredible from 08-10. It's not like LeBum playing historically weak competition in the East. And the Celtics wouldn't have beaten the 09 Lakers with or without KG.

You’re basing this on what exactly? I’d argue the 09 Celtics were even better than the 08 before KG got hurt.

Lakers beat them in both games in the regular season before KG's injury. A 9 point win at home and an OT win in Boston w/o Bynum. The '09 Lakers were much better than the '08 team. They won 65 games for a reason. Once Ariza found his groove with the team and Bynum was able to stay healthy, the team reached another level from what we saw in the '08 playoffs. Pau was also considerably better in '09 as well once he had a chance to play with the team for a full season.

[Lala870]

i forgot how many people hate kobe lmao

For good reason. He's basically leGM before lebron became LeGM.

- Complains and says he wont play for the hornets upon getting drafted and says he only has a list of 3 teams he will play for
- Has a tough guy act acting like he wasn't raised as a spoiled kid in Italy with his dad playing in the league. He has as much street cred as klay or steph
- Tries to copy MJ's on court demeanor at every turn including copying his speech early in his career
- Continues to cry and complain blaming shaq for the reason he's not winning a title every year
- Sexual assault chargers and admits to cheating on his wife
- Demands multiple trades during his time in LA
- Cries and Jerry West sends Pau to the Lakers in a move similar to LeGM signing AD.
- Media forces a retirement tour down everyone's throats making every current player fondle the mans n%$%#

The list goes on

[ikedog34]

Healthy rockets squad dusts that team before they face Orlando.

[Lala870]

Healthy rockets squad dusts that team before they face Orlando.

Yao had em 100%

[TheGOATRises007]

People have to be joking if they think the west wasn't incredible in 2008.

It was completely stacked.

[heezyo2o]

Loved those 09-10 Laker teams, but I'd rank the shaq/kobe titles above those. The 2000-2002 Lakers had a huge 1-2, but also faced much stiffer competition in the west during that run. Maybe I'm forgetting someone, but other than the celtics, I don't think the 09-10 Lakers had much trouble in those playoff runs

edit: Oh that denver series in 09 was great. Maybe the 2nd best team that year

[Pennebaker]

The 50s 70s, and 80s Laker teams were all bonafide superteams featuring 3-5 hall of famers each. The Shaq-Kobe Lakers featured possibly the greatest duo in Nba history. The 2020 Lakers was the bubble season.

So that leaves the '09/'10 Lakers teams. These rosters are by far the least stacked title teams in Laker history. They are the only Laker teams not to feature multiple superstars and ATGs. They also faced some of the stiffest competition in Laker history. Out of the 8 playoff series they won 7 were against 50 win teams. They capped it off with a win over a Celtics superteam featuring 4 Hall of Famers.

Considering he wasn't playing with other superstars and ATGs, given the competition he faced, plus the fact he beat a Celtics superteam...can we say that Kobe Bryant has the 2 greatest championships in Lakers history?

The 50-32 Celtics from 2010 were not the same team as the 66-16 Celtics from 2008.

And unfortunately for Kobe when the Lakers finally did beat the Celtics Pau Gasol was their best player.

The 2009 Orlando Magic and the 2010 Boston Celtics are historically underwhelming finals opponents.

[Sedale Threatt]

Loved those 09-10 Laker teams, but I'd rank the shaq/kobe titles above those. The 2000-2002 Lakers had a huge 1-2, but also faced much stiffer competition in the west during that run. Maybe I'm forgetting someone, but other than the celtics, I don't think the 09-10 Lakers had much trouble in those playoff runs

edit: Oh that denver series in 09 was great. Maybe the 2nd best team that year

In terms of pure enjoyment, 2001 was probably my favorite playoffs in 34 years as a Lakers fan, and there's a ton of candidates. Living in San Antonio while they utterly mopped the floor with the Spurs, their toughest and best competition, was too satisfying to put into words. Even without that, beating a team of that caliber by a MOV of roughly 30 is probably the most impressive single series performance we've ever had in our entire history. We made them quit, and that's not something too many other teams have ever done to the Spurs during the Duncan era, if any.

[Dupp]

Nah. The West was incredible from 08-10. It's not like LeBum playing historically weak competition in the East. And the Celtics wouldn't have beaten the 09 Lakers with or without KG.

You’re basing this on what exactly? I’d argue the 09 Celtics were even better than the 08 before KG got hurt.

Lakers beat them in both games in the regular season before KG's injury. A 9 point win at home and an OT win in Boston w/o Bynum. The '09 Lakers were much better than the '08 team. They won 65 games for a reason. Once Ariza found his groove with the team and Bynum was able to stay healthy, the team reached another level from what we saw in the '08 playoffs. Pau was also considerably better in '09 as well once he had a chance to play with the team for a full season.

Took the 2010 Lakers 7 games and a whole lot of ref help in game 7 to beat Celtics with kg on one leg. If KG never got injured they likely 3 peat.