The Big SF Debate - Kuminga vs Barnes vs Okeke

[Skin]

The Kuminga vs Barnes thread has been very popular here and the forum is largely split in half. That said, how would you compare them to Chuma Okeke (yes, he's switchable), but should also have a legitimate right of his own to claim the starting SF spot?

Jonathan Kuminga (unofficial) - 6'8, 210, 7'0
Scottie Barnes - 6'8, 225, 7'2.75
Chuma Okeke - 6'7, 227, 7'0

Below you will find a Score Card for each player. Please give a score 1-10 for each category. I just chose 10 categories just to make it easy to see what they'd get out of a 100 point perfect score.

Jonathan Kuminga - Total Score:
Character/BBIQ:
Fluidity/Athleticism:
Handle:
Scoring:
3PT Shooting:
Rebounding:
Passing:
Defense:
Floor:
Ceiling:

Scottie Barnes - Total Score
Character/BBIQ:
Fluidity/Athleticism:
Handle:
Scoring:
3PT Shooting:
Rebounding:
Passing:
Defense:
Floor:
Ceiling:

Chuma Okeke - Total Score
Character/BBIQ:
Fluidity/Athleticism:
Handle:
Scoring:
3PT Shooting:
Rebounding:
Passing:
Defense:
Floor:
Ceiling:


If you just wanna discuss, that's fine too!

[drsd]

Given that Okeke played PF all year and Isaac is projected to be the SF, we will see.

[Dub_Sax]

Given that Okeke played PF all year and Isaac is projected to be the SF, we will see.

I have to laugh when I see quotes like this because most ppl on the board wanted to trade AG because HE could not play SF next to Isaac at PF!

Sent from my SM-G955U using RealGM mobile app

[drsd]

Given that Okeke played PF all year and Isaac is projected to be the SF, we will see.

I have to laugh when I see quotes like this because most ppl on the board wanted to trade AG because HE could not play SF next to Isaac at PF!

Okeke played almost exclusively at PF, and this thread is about that.


..

[SOUL]

In essence it doesn't really matter if they're starting together. Isaac will guard certain sorts of players, Okeke ones that he's more fit for. Okeke offensively is definitely more of a SF because he has better vision and plays less like a big man.

[Skin]

Given that Okeke played PF all year and Isaac is projected to be the SF, we will see.

OK, let's make some corrections, but also put things into perspective. Chuma did get time at SF, so your statement is not accurate. Secondly, his lane to playing time emerged because Isaac was hurt, Gordon, Aminu and Birch were all traded and Otto Porter came on board. The options to put players at PF were slim. It was also slim at SF, so Chuma got playing time at BOTH positions. Clifford said so himself. It's a matter of him expanding his game and getting better over time.

https://orlandomagicdaily.com/2021/03/27/orlando-magic-rookie-chuma-okeke-is-finding-his-confidence-and-comfort/

Clifford has repeatedly said players grow best when they are put in positions where they can succeed and contribute to winning. That is the guiding light of his philosophy.

Clifford wanted to keep Okeke’s role simple at the power forward position, giving him set responsibilities to master. But he has had to play Okeke at small forward — 63-percent of his minutes at power forward and 33-percent of his minutes at small forward, according to Basketball-Reference — more than he would like.

That may have slowed the addition of these small moments into big moments like that last two games. Simplifying and focusing Okeke’s role might well have helped him find a bit of a breakthrough.

“One of the things that has hurt him is he had to play for a stretch there at a position he never even practiced at,” Clifford said after Friday’s game. “He’s back to playing what he is now. I think he can play the 3 as he gets older. This is allowing him to play one position and concentrate on those things and those details. Some games he has had to play two positions and that can be very difficult.”

As for Isaac's impact. If they are on the floor at the same time, it could either be with Chuma at SF and Isaac at PF or Chuma at PF and Isaac as a small ball C. I REALLY don't want to see Isaac at SF where his knees are more prone to give out on him.

[Knightro]

I like Okeke, but he's a bit of a tweener.

He's not nearly a good enough rebounder to hold up as a starting PF on a good team, but I'm not convinced he has the wing skills to be a starting SF on a good team either.

Seems like a solid 20-25 MPG backup SF/PF on a good team.

[Skin]

I like Okeke, but he's a bit of a tweener.

He's not nearly a good enough rebounder to hold up as a starting PF on a good team, but I'm not convinced he has the wing skills to be a starting SF on a good team either.

Seems like a solid 20-25 MPG backup SF/PF on a good team.

I think that's a fair point, but is that not a same concern for you with Barnes?

[tiderulz]

I like Okeke, but he's a bit of a tweener.

He's not nearly a good enough rebounder to hold up as a starting PF on a good team, but I'm not convinced he has the wing skills to be a starting SF on a good team either.

Seems like a solid 20-25 MPG backup SF/PF on a good team.

does he have more or less wing skills than Mikal Bridges?

[fendilim]

If you mean between the 3, who has the most star potential? I would say Kuminga. IF he develops his shooting. Its not guaranteed, but it is an easier path to be a star if you are a scorer.

Okeke and Barnes arent really shot creators. And shot creators are really those who become stars, UNLESS you are elite at something, which Barnes and Okeke aren’t elite at anything, but solid at something.

[pepe1991]

This isn't really "debate".

Barnes has been power forward whole his career. Even if you find his tapes when he was 15,16,17 years old, he always played like big. All U17, U18, U 19 USA teams , he was "big". That's why i simply can't understand so much hype about his "playmaking". It's just false marketing. His passing comes from him curling off screen, getting ball high , facing up opponent to dump ball to cutters or with back to basket finding corner shooters.

Okeke played 2/3 of his min at PF. Him and Wendell had lot of struggles tho, they couldn't rebound ball at all.
I simply did not see enough in Okeke where i would be too bothered by his position, to me he will be bench player until he proves he is capable of being more.

Kuminga as rookie if he lands on some other , not-Orlando team, will probably spend whole rookie year and even next year at PF. He simply does not have basketball skills to play SF today and only way how implement him into basketball team and give him some purpose is putting him at PF -dunker spot where he will de little bit of screening, waiting until his man overcommits to help and leak into dunks and layups.
At SF he will be just buried into standing in corner for sake of "spacing" despite him having no jumpshot to make anybody pay.


Regardless of who Magic take, Barnes or Kuminga, starting SF will once again be bandage on bullet hole. As it has been for ages now.


tiderulz mentioned Mikal Bridges being SF despite not really having skills for one, and it's kind a true.
However, Suns have unique adventage over other teams as they have 2 great ballhandlers + Payne, and there simply isn't situation where they need their SF to be doing too much on-ball work. In general, Mikal is fine player but somebody will be Otto - Portering him, throwing crazy money on player that esencially isn't anything more but very good shooter who isn't terrible defender.

For same reasons Jae Crowder works for them and worked for Celtics, but in same time he was kind a horrible in Utah and Memphis.

[KillMonger]

This is easy to me, neither of them would start over Okeke in my eyes....Chuma showed enough offensively and not only is he a capable defender he is also a SMART player....IQ is high

[drsd]

I like Okeke, but he's a bit of a tweener.

He's not nearly a good enough rebounder to hold up as a starting PF on a good team, but I'm not convinced he has the wing skills to be a starting SF on a good team either.

Seems like a solid 20-25 MPG backup SF/PF on a good team.

And back to the "Big SF Debate", Kuminga and Banes are also Tweeners, and for me, none in the good sense. All three look like really good backup players. At #5, I am a hard-no on Barnes and Kuminga. And as the Magic has Okeke already, I am a soft-no on both at #8.

..

[cedric76]

Okeke will be a MIP candidate

[Sammyzc+1]

I can definitely agree with cedric76 on that. The guy plays very intelligently and has physical skills as well. PLUS, he was coming off a major injury last season and STILL showed alot of positives

[Skybox]

Kuminga will be the leading scorer on this team next year-if we choose him. It may be ugly, selfish, inefficient basketball but he is the only one of the three who has the scorer mentality. This will be a really interesting debate among the FO/Mosley about whether Kuminga can be "tamed" to bring his (potential) versatility to the forefront and not just shoot or drive every time he gets the ball. As much as we've needed that kind of wing, it's now somewhat unsettling to be facing that option...Okeke is everything you want in a 4th or 5th option or even 6th man. A fantastic team player on both ends, who can do everything but nothing at an elite level.

I really don't know what the picture is with Barnes/Isaac/MCW-Bamba...fearsome length and pressure defense without real front court offense? Lose as much as possible to kick the can down the road and draft that transcendent wing next year? I don't like it. Time and again it's evident that today's NBA requires opening up the floor with shooting from more than just your guards and defense will only get you so far on its own...would our offense consist of Barnes stealing the ball and dunking 20x per game?

My favorite vision is that the FO deduces that Giddey really CAN shoot and defend well enough and that a guy like him (with Mosley) changes our whole offensive scheme with Utah/Lamelo type ball movement and open shots that miraculously make all of our guys good shooters. Okeke would totally buy into that system as well.

My point is that the new Coach's system and FO vision settles the debate. They're very different players.

[Skybox]

Kuminga will be the leading scorer on this team next year-if we choose him. It may be ugly, selfish, inefficient basketball but he is the only one of the three who has the scorer mentality. This will be a really interesting debate among the FO/Mosley about whether Kuminga can be "tamed" to bring his (potential) versatility to the forefront and not just shoot or drive every time he gets the ball. As much as we've needed that kind of wing, it's now somewhat unsettling to be facing that option...Okeke is everything you want in a 4th or 5th option or even 6th man. A fantastic team player on both ends, who can do everything but nothing at an elite level.

I really don't know what the picture is with Barnes/Isaac/WCJ-Bamba...fearsome length and pressure defense without real front court offense? Lose as much as possible to kick the can down the road and draft that transcendent wing next year? I don't like it. Time and again it's evident that today's NBA requires opening up the floor with shooting from more than just your guards and defense will only get you so far on its own...would our offense consist of Barnes stealing the ball and dunking 20x per game?

My favorite vision is that the FO deduces that Giddey really CAN shoot and defend well enough and that a guy like him (with Mosley) changes our whole offensive scheme with Utah/Lamelo type ball movement and open shots that miraculously make all of our guys good shooters. Okeke would totally buy into that system as well.

My point is that the new Coach's system and FO vision settles the debate. They're very different players.

[basketballRob]

We have Isaac, Chuma, and Ross, all can play some SF. Most of the players that are available to us this year are wings. It's kind of tricky figuring out how everyone can get minutes.

[VFX]

What this debate is really about in my opinion comes down to logical roster construction. I’ve been saying this for… I don’t know… The last 4 seasons.

No 3 player combination of Okeke/ Isaac / Barnes / Kuminga make sense on a basketball court together. Why? Because they individually don’t provide enough offense and Orlando’s back court isn’t talented enough to shoulder their lack of floor spacing. Not many back courts would be, apart from Curry/Klay or Lillard/McCollum.

The response to this criticism has lately been “who cares we’ll figure it all out later after we get the talent”. I disagree with that notion simply because you have to put players in the best chance to highlight their strengths and succeed. Flipping young prospects rarely gets you the same return as making a good selection or trading your pick.

[drsd]

Kuminga will be the leading scorer on this team next year-if we choose him. It may be ugly, selfish, inefficient basketball but he is the only one of the three who has the scorer mentality.

Of returning players, Orlando's highest ppg scorer is Ross at 15.6. It is hard to see where scoring will come from from the starters, and if Mr. #5 starts, such a rookie could lead this team in scoring.

That said, I am not sure Kuminga starts if drafted. Would you have him over Okeke? Okeke is the better player right now and this is not straight forward.

(( I also see Mr. #8 as a bench player next season ))