Olajuwon vs Adetokunbo: Greatest Ethnic Nigerian Player Ever?

[BoatsNZones]

I think that the actions of the United States and its allies rightly characterize it as a terrorist state.

One last question: What nation in any semblance of power would you not characterize in this sense? Certainly not its enemies, that is for sure. It's a very corrupt world we live in.

That's a good question, but frankly I think it's an irrelevant one. A superpower conceiving of its enemies as 'terrorist states' is just another way of affirming its jus ad bellum; mere propaganda that anyone who cares about not being a hypocrite ought to see right through. Indeed, it's a corrupt world, so we shouldn't be so restrictive on who we consider terrorists.

I don't quite follow. Every nation has their own self interests at heart; super-power and otherwise (this is the case for all civilizations/tribes in history up to now, and all species to our knowledge at that). And between the world's two top super-powers, I am incredibly grateful I live in a world where the USA still holds enough power to balance the alternative (being aware that they are horrendous at times in their own right, I do think there is a balance here that is debatably as good as any super-power of the past).

I do appreciate the discourse but I think there is a politics forum here, so we can move it there if necessary.

[trickshot]

Two Yoruba Kings... Hakeem 'The Dream' Olajuwon & Giannis 'Greak Freak' Adetokunbo?

Read on Twitter

**NBA agents scrambling to google "how to find the "Yoruba tribe"**

Facts

Funfact is Oladipo and Adebayo are also from Hakeem's and Giannis tribe. Actually a big group in nigeria so one in every couple nigerian migrants will be from their tribe. Many african americans also have their ancestral roots from several tribes in the general region. On a speculative note, is probably not a coincidence either.

[HurricaneKid]

Hakeem is the better shooter, passer, defender and a more well rounded offensive player. Giannis has a long way to go before he catches up.

Others agreed but you cannot be serious about passer. Dream could pass the test as a big but Giannis is at an elite level.

Giannis was mediocre as a passer going in these playoffs, it was the Hawks and Suns series where he really showed improvement there. Still wouldnt call it quite elite, and we will see if he sustains it

Dream was never above 3.3 assists per 36 min. Giannis has been 6.5, 6.6, and 6.4 the last 3 years. Giannis routinely makes passes Dream never dreamed of.

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[Clay Davis]

One last question: What nation in any semblance of power would you not characterize in this sense? Certainly not its enemies, that is for sure. It's a very corrupt world we live in.

That's a good question, but frankly I think it's an irrelevant one. A superpower conceiving of its enemies as 'terrorist states' is just another way of affirming its jus ad bellum; mere propaganda that anyone who cares about not being a hypocrite ought to see right through. Indeed, it's a corrupt world, so we shouldn't be so restrictive on who we consider terrorists.

I don't quite follow. Every nation has their own self interests at heart; super-power and otherwise (this is the case for all civilizations in history, and all species to our knowledge at that). And between the world's two top super-powers, I am incredibly grateful I live in a world where the USA still holds enough power to balance the alternative.

I do appreciate the discourse but I think there is a politics forum here, so we can move it there if necessary.

I'm perhaps being a bit unclear, my apologies. I think that if you think that, yes, every nation has its own self interests at heart, and that achieving the height of power necessarily involves engaging in atrocities, it necessarily follows that the characterization of one country as being a terrorist state as opposed to another is a meaningless distinction; it is only useful insofar as one is maintaining a sense of sanctimony. It is fine to believe in the values that the U.S. holds, as they are indeed wonderful values, but it is another altogether to think that it always acts in accordance with these values when it often acts in opposition to what its civilians would truly believe without the operation of a powerful propaganda apparatus and that it is not, in actuality, on a very different plane than what it accuses its enemies of. Notice that this does not contradict esteeming the values that the U.S. holds onto (even if somewhat only in word) and being proud of the country for holding them.

I'm a proud Canadian, even though I acknowledge that this country was built upon genocide and, sadly, continues to perpetuate genocidal actions, both domestically and internationally. I am proud because I know that as a Canadian our country can do better, and believing we can do better means not being a hypocrite and having the personal belief that, as a citizen in a democratic country, change is possible. The existence of arson does not diminish the value of fire.

[TheDavinciCHODE]

I have no opinion on this matter.

However, I met a Nigerian med student while I was living in Manila, Philippines and we really hit it off. She had a booty that could bring bout world peace.

She had all these tattoos/black marks (almost like cuts or burns) around her torso and chest that were apparently some tribal mark or something cultural that she didn't feel like explaining to me. And when we were at home she'd walk around naked save for a belt made of blue beads.

God bless Nigeria.

I wonder what she's up to these days :/

I guess Giannis anyway.

[gmoney411]

Hakeem's best offensive years were 93-95 and his best defensive were 89-91. Giannis is a DPOY level guy today.

I'm not sure Hakeem was better than Robinson for whatever's worth.

I'm not really sure what you are getting at by splitting out Hakeem's best years like that. In 86 he averaged 27 a game in the playoffs and led the Rockets to the finals. In 87 averaged 29 in the playoffs. In 88 he averaged 38 in the playoffs. It's not like Hakeem wasn't a really good playoff performer until 93. Hakeem actually averaged 4 more PPG in the playoffs than the regular season for his career and is 13th all time in playoffs ppg ahead of guys like Kobe, Shaq, Malone, and Dirk. He is one of the few rare players that actually had a higher FG% in the playoffs for his career than the regular season.

The unfortunate part of Hakeem's career is that the Rockets were a badly run franchise that put nobody around him and he fought with the team a lot in the early 90s. Rudy T came in and ran an offense that fit Hakeem and the rest is history.

Did you really brag up his 88 avg when he played 4 games and got knocked out of the playoffs 3-1 in the first round?

Dream's biggest issue is that from his yr 25 season through his yr 29 season he missed the playoffs (once) more than he even got to the deciding game of the first round (zero times; 3-12 overall in the playoffs) and he wasn't a very good teammate/leader during that time.

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If listing his playoff scoring averages from 86-88 is "bragging it up" then sure.

That's not his biggest issue. His lack of quality teammates was the biggest issue. Jordan was a bad leader and ball hog until Pippen and Phil showed up.

[BoatsNZones]

That's a good question, but frankly I think it's an irrelevant one. A superpower conceiving of its enemies as 'terrorist states' is just another way of affirming its jus ad bellum; mere propaganda that anyone who cares about not being a hypocrite ought to see right through. Indeed, it's a corrupt world, so we shouldn't be so restrictive on who we consider terrorists.

I don't quite follow. Every nation has their own self interests at heart; super-power and otherwise (this is the case for all civilizations in history, and all species to our knowledge at that). And between the world's two top super-powers, I am incredibly grateful I live in a world where the USA still holds enough power to balance the alternative.

I do appreciate the discourse but I think there is a politics forum here, so we can move it there if necessary.

I'm perhaps being a bit unclear, my apologies. I think that if you think that, yes, every nation has its own self interests at heart, and that achieving the height of power necessarily involves engaging in atrocities, it necessarily follows that the characterization of one country as being a terrorist state as opposed to another is a meaningless distinction; it is only useful insofar as one is maintaining a sense of sanctimony. It is fine to believe in the values that the U.S. holds, as they are indeed wonderful values, but it is another altogether to think that it always acts in accordance with these values when it often acts in opposition to what its civilians would truly believe without the operation of a powerful propaganda apparatus and that it is not, in actuality, on a very different plane than what it accuses its enemies of. Notice that this does not contradict esteeming the values that the U.S. holds onto (even if somewhat only in word) and being proud of the country for holding them.

I'm a proud Canadian, even though I acknowledge that this country was built upon genocide and, sadly, continues to perpetuate genocidal actions, both domestically and internationally. I am proud because I know that as a Canadian our country can do better, and believing we can do better means not being a hypocrite and having the personal belief that, as a citizen in a democratic country, change is possible. The existence of arson does not diminish the value of fire.

Nice post. To be clear, this discussion began simply with the presumption from a poster about an unfounded allegation re Hakeem. To which you argued that terrorism is debatable given that the USA has atrocities of their own on their hand. You used the term mutually exclusive, and ironically that is the perfect statement to sum up that portion of the argument. The two have nothing to do with one another, agreed?

I am personally a multi citizen (EU) who has lived oversees and take in a good deal of opposing media (often opposing propaganda), but let's just say I enjoy the fact that my comments here are not censored by the USA as they would be by another superpower. These are not fake freedoms, and frankly if anything I think the states go too far at times to attempt to adhere to everyone at all times (it's simply not reality clearly, but politicians would love you to think as much). Am I happy with the USA? Absolutely not. Do I think they can do better? Debatable, given their size and the construct of the world as it is. My apologies, as I am sadly a realist and have/do not see a nation who has or would at this point. Granted, here's hoping.

In summation: Hakeem > Giannis ; )

[HollowEarth]

This year, Giannis became the 3rd international player to win MVP and Finals MVP. I voted for Hakeem, but Giannis has a lot of career left. Hakeem hadn't won a title or even peaked at Giannis' age.

[Just_Bullz]

Hakeem was man......the man of big men.

Really have to put Giannis on hold for the time being until his career is over or if he continues to dominate and win more rings.

[Clay Davis]

I don't quite follow. Every nation has their own self interests at heart; super-power and otherwise (this is the case for all civilizations in history, and all species to our knowledge at that). And between the world's two top super-powers, I am incredibly grateful I live in a world where the USA still holds enough power to balance the alternative.

I do appreciate the discourse but I think there is a politics forum here, so we can move it there if necessary.

I'm perhaps being a bit unclear, my apologies. I think that if you think that, yes, every nation has its own self interests at heart, and that achieving the height of power necessarily involves engaging in atrocities, it necessarily follows that the characterization of one country as being a terrorist state as opposed to another is a meaningless distinction; it is only useful insofar as one is maintaining a sense of sanctimony. It is fine to believe in the values that the U.S. holds, as they are indeed wonderful values, but it is another altogether to think that it always acts in accordance with these values when it often acts in opposition to what its civilians would truly believe without the operation of a powerful propaganda apparatus and that it is not, in actuality, on a very different plane than what it accuses its enemies of. Notice that this does not contradict esteeming the values that the U.S. holds onto (even if somewhat only in word) and being proud of the country for holding them.

I'm a proud Canadian, even though I acknowledge that this country was built upon genocide and, sadly, continues to perpetuate genocidal actions, both domestically and internationally. I am proud because I know that as a Canadian our country can do better, and believing we can do better means not being a hypocrite and having the personal belief that, as a citizen in a democratic country, change is possible. The existence of arson does not diminish the value of fire.

Nice post. To be clear, this discussion began simply with the presumption from a poster about an unfounded allegation re Hakeem. To which you argued that terrorism is debatable given that the USA has atrocities of their own on their hand. You used the term mutually exclusive, and ironically that is the perfect statement to sum up that portion of the argument. The two have nothing to do with one another, agreed?

I am personally a multi citizen (EU) who has lived oversees and take in a good deal of opposing media (often opposing propaganda), but let's just say I enjoy the fact that my comments here are not censored by the USA as they would be by another superpower. These are not fake freedoms, and frankly if anything I think the states go too far at times to attempt to adhere to everyone at all times (it's simply not reality clearly, but politicians would love you to think as much). Am I happy with the USA? Absolutely not. Do I think they can do better? Debatable, given their size and the construct of the world as it is. My apologies, as I am sadly a realist and have/do not see a nation who has or would at this point. Granted, here's hoping.

In summation: Hakeem > Giannis ; )

Thank you for the measured response. My understanding was that the poster was saying Hakeem's patriotism isn't mutually exclusive with funding terrorism in the context of providing support for terrorist organizations such as Hamas and Al-Qaeda (some would argue Hamas isn't a terrorist organization, but let's put that aside for the time being). I argued that anyone's patriotic feelings regarding the USA are not mutually exclusive with providing material support for terrorism or engaging in apologetics with regards to its terrorist activity. In any case, being patriotic is not exclusive with being cognizant of one's state's terrorist activities, so yes, I agree that one's stance regarding the state engaging or not engaging in terrorist activities is potentially harmonious with being patriotic.

I am sure that there are some respects in which the US could do better without surrendering their material superiority, though admittedly this in regards to domestic policy (such as providing better education for some of its citizens), but I'm sure it's also the case that much of its black marks were in some sense necessary. Things are so multi-dimensional that it's impossible to put a single spin on things.

Historically, the aim towards values we cherish has always involved some measure of hypocrisy; ancient Rome saw itself as the candle-bearers of democratic progress but did not afford democratic participation to women, slaves, and immigrants. I'm sure such restrictions were necessary at one time. Perhaps the next iteration of a democratic society founded upon providing liberties to all will be even more progressive and materially successful than the US, as the US is in relation to the Roman Republic.

So I share your pessimism and cynicism, but only because I see progress as iterative

And yes, Hakeem > Giannis. Hakeem > Shaq, Kobe, for that matter

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[HurricaneKid]

I'm not really sure what you are getting at by splitting out Hakeem's best years like that. In 86 he averaged 27 a game in the playoffs and led the Rockets to the finals. In 87 averaged 29 in the playoffs. In 88 he averaged 38 in the playoffs. It's not like Hakeem wasn't a really good playoff performer until 93. Hakeem actually averaged 4 more PPG in the playoffs than the regular season for his career and is 13th all time in playoffs ppg ahead of guys like Kobe, Shaq, Malone, and Dirk. He is one of the few rare players that actually had a higher FG% in the playoffs for his career than the regular season.

The unfortunate part of Hakeem's career is that the Rockets were a badly run franchise that put nobody around him and he fought with the team a lot in the early 90s. Rudy T came in and ran an offense that fit Hakeem and the rest is history.

Did you really brag up his 88 avg when he played 4 games and got knocked out of the playoffs 3-1 in the first round?

Dream's biggest issue is that from his yr 25 season through his yr 29 season he missed the playoffs (once) more than he even got to the deciding game of the first round (zero times; 3-12 overall in the playoffs) and he wasn't a very good teammate/leader during that time.

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If listing his playoff scoring averages from 86-88 is "bragging it up" then sure.

That's not his biggest issue. His lack of quality teammates was the biggest issue. Jordan was a bad leader and ball hog until Pippen and Phil showed up.

Now we are just playing chicken and egg.

In 88 they brought in Sleepy Floyd who was avg 21.2 a game after having been an all star the previous year, Joe Barry Carroll who had avg 21 the previous year in his all star season, and Purvis Short who was a solid player (traded for Sampson).

They still had vets World B Free and Cedric Maxwell (admittedly both on their last legs), a 1st team all D stopper in Rodney McCray and young Buck Williams and Otis Thorpe.

That's just not the terrible cast you suggest. But Dream was shredding the team, demanding a trade, etc.

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[HMFFL]

I watched Olajuwon and always held him to a high regards, but I believe Giannis will end up being the better player. Giannis is still evolving, developing, and once he improves his range more he will be unstoppable.

I expect Giannis to win more championships. Everything depends on him staying healthy and continuing to have the mindset & confidence we see from him.



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[Mirotic12]

Peak Olajuwon was an absolutely amazing player. Current Giannis isn't within miles of that level as a player.

[Perseus1966]

I think giannis feels more greek than nigerian

[dhsilv2]

Others agreed but you cannot be serious about passer. Dream could pass the test as a big but Giannis is at an elite level.

Giannis was mediocre as a passer going in these playoffs, it was the Hawks and Suns series where he really showed improvement there. Still wouldnt call it quite elite, and we will see if he sustains it

Dream was never above 3.3 assists per 36 min. Giannis has been 6.5, 6.6, and 6.4 the last 3 years. Giannis routinely makes passes Dream never dreamed of.

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I'm fairly certain dream has never dreamed of passing.

[FlatearthZorro]

Peak Olajuwon was an absolutely amazing player. Current Giannis isn't within miles of that level as a player.

Pretty much. I like Giannis, he's one of the better competitors in the game, he's motivated and hard working, but skill wise, he's not close to Hakeem. Giannis' skillset is pretty much reliant on his athletic ability, length and strength. Giannis made the leap when he gained weight and started pushing people around.

[chrisab123]

Hakeem at his peak was easily in the top 10 greatest players of all time. At his peak. Giannis is awesome but he's not that.

[KG Leonard]

I think giannis feels more greek than nigerian

Why do you think that??
The Greek law,state didn't give him citizenship until he was 18-19 drafted to the NBA,he got help from US senator that owned part of Bucks. They didn't want him despite he was born in Athens, kids from the poor neighbourhood he grew up in was called immigrant trash.

Of course he would be more loyal to his parents culture specially when Greece didn't want him until he became NBA player.....

[gmoney411]

Did you really brag up his 88 avg when he played 4 games and got knocked out of the playoffs 3-1 in the first round?

Dream's biggest issue is that from his yr 25 season through his yr 29 season he missed the playoffs (once) more than he even got to the deciding game of the first round (zero times; 3-12 overall in the playoffs) and he wasn't a very good teammate/leader during that time.

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If listing his playoff scoring averages from 86-88 is "bragging it up" then sure.

That's not his biggest issue. His lack of quality teammates was the biggest issue. Jordan was a bad leader and ball hog until Pippen and Phil showed up.

Now we are just playing chicken and egg.

In 88 they brought in Sleepy Floyd who was avg 21.2 a game after having been an all star the previous year, Joe Barry Carroll who had avg 21 the previous year in his all star season, and Purvis Short who was a solid player (traded for Sampson).

They still had vets World B Free and Cedric Maxwell (admittedly both on their last legs), a 1st team all D stopper in Rodney McCray and young Buck Williams and Otis Thorpe.

That's just not the terrible cast you suggest. But Dream was shredding the team, demanding a trade, etc.

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Interesting how you chose Floyd's ppg for the year he was traded and Carroll's ppg for the previous year. Floyd played 15 seasons and made on all star team. Caroll played 12 seasons and made one all star team. The next year Carroll was traded again and he did basically nothing for the rest of his career. I am not going to talk bad about Sleepy though. He was one of my favorite players as a kid. But he wasn't an all star level teammate.

You are listing solid NBA players but no consistent all star level players. And the players you are listing are spread out over different rosters and didn't all play together. Dream wasn't the best teammate but neither was Jordan, Shaq, LeBron, etc. The difference is all of those guys got hall of fame teammates in their mid 20s. Dream didn't get one until the age of 32 when Drexler showed up.

[sisibilio]

Folks can claim that the only reason Dream won was because Jordan retired but winning with Mad Max and Otis Thorpe as your #2 and #3 is no small task.

Both fantastic players but Hakeems game had so much more polish so I’ll pick him at this point.

Mad Max was a heck of a talent, just a lil too mad sometimes.