Possible reasons for the Lowry S&T hold up (Powell, WCS from DAL for Dragic)

[canz55]

So one of the main selling points of the GTJ for Norm deal was GTJ's small cap hold which would allow the Raptors to be players in free agency.

There was no reason to deal Lowry for "pennies" on the dollar because worst case the Raptors would have cap flexibility if he walked

Now it's no big deal the Raptors are capped out and received fewer assets than they would have at the deadline because this FA class sucks?

Seems like this is just an attempt to justify poor asset management.

Which UFA did you want or thought the squad could use that we didn't end up getting because of our "poor asset management"?

I'm not being sarcastic either, I really want to know.

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If Lowry left for nothing you are players for all the UFAs (Holmes, Norm, Fournier, THJ, Dinwiddie, etc.)

You also have room to work a S&T for Ball, Collins, Graham, Oubre, etc. If you had traded Lowry at the deadline you could have even used some of those assets in any potential S&T deal.

If you don't like ANY of these options and want to pivot into a full rebuild, suddenly you are available as a trade partner in all of these convoluted multi team trades or for teams looking to lessen their luxury tax bill.

Respectflly, none of the RFA's you just mentioned were either available (in hindsight) and/or moved the needle for this team in any meaningful way.

I can understand maybe some people getting annoyed over losing out on Holmes but its fair to say that the Raps didn't want to give him the same amount of years that the Kings did. After that what you have leftover is a mixed bag of iffy players that don't configure in our long term plans.

[ATLTimekeeper]

If this is the pitch management is going to use to attract players this team is in truly dire straits. Players/agents have control of the league right now and if you think "Hey, they accommodated Kyle Lowry" is even a slight consideration for the top guys you're simply out of touch with how pro sports works. The Raptors won a championship and actually lost talent from that team instead of getting a mythical boost from championship culture.

Stars want to play with other stars, the only way the Raptors attract one from outside the organization is if they develop their own first.

And they develop their own by focussing on player development, which has been a staple from the beginning, and by paying their own, which keeps everyone happy. Happy stars recruit unhappy stars. If you understand that, and it seems like you do, you can probably wrap your head around the basic math here.

[aminiaturebuddha]

I'm fine with Dragic sticking around for the first part of the year. Let him be the first guard off the bench, score a bunch, put himself into the 6th Man of the Year conversation, and then flip him for a young asset or draft picks at the trade deadline. No problem with that at all.

And if that ends up being the case, the team is legitimately 2 deep at every position, and we wouldn't need to give any minutes right away to Banton or D. Johnson, and we can just let them do their thing in the G-League and develop there.

[Kingsway_fan]

Read on Twitter

I'm glad the Raptors don't have to take on any of the Mavs cast offs.

Absolutely, fk Dallas and no way raps waive him... raps need to think and act in what is the best interests of raps... i don't care about accommodating other players at our expense.... fkk this.

[Pooh_Jeter]

If this is the pitch management is going to use to attract players this team is in truly dire straits. Players/agents have control of the league right now and if you think "Hey, they accommodated Kyle Lowry" is even a slight consideration for the top guys you're simply out of touch with how pro sports works. The Raptors won a championship and actually lost talent from that team instead of getting a mythical boost from championship culture.

Stars want to play with other stars, the only way the Raptors attract one from outside the organization is if they develop their own first.

And they develop their own by focussing on player development, which has been a staple from the beginning, and by paying their own, which keeps everyone happy. Happy stars recruit unhappy stars. If you understand that, and it seems like you do, you can probably wrap your head around the basic math here.

The Raptors did everything in their power to keep Lowry happy and he didn't recruit a single player to Toronto and didn't even attempt to sway Kawhi in his decision. Instead, he joined his friend Jimmy Butler in Miami.

When you overpay guys who aren't stars and then end up capped out, suddenly you don't have room to accommodate a star.

Player development is certainly key, but all this warm and fuzzy stuff about keeping players happy isn't reality. These guys can get money from any team in the league, they want the ideal situation (location and star teammates) and frankly you're going to have to make every concession possible to keep them happy. That means not attempting to market yourself as some sort of moral compass when it comes to the CBA.

[Mr.Raptorsingh]

Has Dragic been traded yet

[NotMyKawhi]

Most Heat fans hate the trade and are really sad to see dragic go...

I think ppl underrate Dragic, he's tough as nails and played in a defensive system for a long time. I think he will fit perfectly.

[Brinbe]

Most Heat fans hate the trade and are really sad to see dragic go...

I think ppl underrate Dragic, he's tough as nails and played in a defensive system for a long time. I think he will fit perfectly.

Seriously, he's still so good. Obviously not the same player as in his prime but he will sometimes pull a move that reminds you of Phoenix Dragic.

He was their best player at times. In fact, he's like their Lowry.

Watch on YouTube

If the idea is that we want to see this team operate like we did last year plus a good C the whole way then we could do worse with replacing Lowry with Dragic plus two young developmental pieces we've lacked in Okpala and Precious.

If these guys develop then we're cooking and we trust that our player developmental team is pretty good, right?

They're betting that they can make the same sorts of leaps that Norm, OG, DeMar, JV, Jakob, Kyle, Fred, Pascal, etc made. Pretty much most (not all, tbf) of our guys got better, right?

Seems they also target a certain type of player mentally as well, right? That doesn't rest and generally strives internally to do better?

It sucks that this deal got held up but I can see why they did it. If Kyle is your GROAT, then you act accordingly. And they have. That will come back to us in the future.

Well imagine that with the caliber of prospect we have now?

[ATLTimekeeper]

The Raptors did everything in their power to keep Lowry happy and he didn't recruit a single player to Toronto and didn't even attempt to sway Kawhi in his decision. Instead, he joined his friend Jimmy Butler in Miami.

They didn't do everything in their power to keep Kyle happy. They traded his best friend and pissed him off But, since they gave him the correct good-bye now they can use that as a calling card and I'm sure he'll have good things to say.

When you overpay guys who aren't stars and then end up capped out, suddenly you don't have room to accommodate a star.

Sure you do, you just stick picks to the salary you don't want and make the trade. This literally happens everywhere this is done. This is a boogeyman.

Player development is certainly key, but all this warm and fuzzy stuff about keeping players happy isn't reality. These guys can get money from any team in the league, they want the ideal situation (location and star teammates) and frankly you're going to have to make every concession possible to keep them happy. That means not attempting to market yourself as some sort of moral compass when it comes to the CBA.

This is another incorrect take, and an insulting viewpoint of players. They're not all intent of taking every ounce for themselves.

[Skeezo]

That they had a decent sense that the offers would be about the same in the summer as they were in the winter, and that's true.

• Just curious... How do you know what the offers were? Ever since the deadline, yourself (along with others), have shouted down any person who said certain deals were on the table as purely "speculation" ... As a result, are you not only "speculating" that the offers are the same now as they were at the deadline?
• Secondly, how is taking on an EXTRA 19.5m dollars in Dragic, who could have been waived prior to free agency close to the same deal that was "speculated" at the deadline?

How does this benefit the Raptors? Well, for the first time in history a star leaves on a good note. In a league where we're competing with marquee destination teams that violate the CBA, we have to compete in a different way. We have to give credible selling points to talent that comes through here. Now, there's a Kyle Lowry standard.

• This really is some good sophistry, but sophistry nonetheless
• Regardless of how players have left, Damon, VC, Bosh, or DeRozan all RAVE about their time in Toronto.
• We are known as "White Vegas" and have been a Top 5 destination for visiting players for years for a variety of reasons... Mona Halem has established an entire career for herself around it. None of it has turned us into a no-tax haven or warm weather market for premier free agent target.
• Kyle leaving on a "good note," though nice, provides minimal additional punch to what we have already established as a city & organization.
• Also, just remember, it's the same ruthless guy in charge who traded DeRozan as who established this "Kyle Lowry" standard you're talking about. A player will remember what they want to remember about a city/organization.

You can complain about the Raptors consistently giving POs or overbidding and not using leverage to put the wood to their own players, but we now have the reputation as a team that you can get a contract with. We have the reputation of a team that is known for development.

• What do the two have to do with one another, can we not be thankful and critical of both?
• I can write a novel about my wife's actions that annoy me (and I'm sure vice-versa), but that doesn't take away my love for her, or the million other things she does amazing. I feel the same way about our Franchise and Organization
• Finally, when did we ever have a reputation of not paying players, or not being a place you couldn't get a contract from? Yogi Stewart would disagree.

[Skeezo]

Sure you do, you just stick picks to the salary you don't want and make the trade. This literally happens everywhere this is done. This is a boogeyman.

Now take this same mentality & switch in favour for the Raptors who did have cap space... Now maybe, you can understand why taking on an additional 19.5m of salary into our cap space just to get Achuiwa, isn't really good value for a S&T of Lowry

[biblast]

Read on Twitter

I'm glad the Raptors don't have to take on any of the Mavs cast offs.

Absolutely, fk Dallas and no way raps waive him... raps need to think and act in what is the best interests of raps... i don't care about accommodating other players at our expense.... fkk this.

Ok so now what ? Wasting 3 days of FA to ultimately end up with Dragic on our roster ?? Not saying he's garbage by any means but if we really wanted him, there wouldn't be such a long hold up! This is BS!

I know some of ya'll will be quick to point out that we're getting something in return for Kyle but at what cost ??
I don't think our plan was to absorb Dragic $19M contract, get Precious Achiuwa and sign a bunch of international scrubs ???
I know Masai can do no wrong on this board and he's earned his reputation hence everyone is giving him a pass which is fine.
But I have to say that he's been a little bit off with some of the moves that he made since last year like the whole Ibaka/Gasol/Baynes debacle!

Admittedly, that are certain things beyond his control like Covid, Tampa relocation and of course FAs not wanting to play in Canada so I get all of that but still. I'll reserve final judgement after we get the details on the S&T and our final roster make up but so far this has been a frustrating FA to say the least!

[Ganjamayne]

Most Heat fans hate the trade and are really sad to see dragic go...

I think ppl underrate Dragic, he's tough as nails and played in a defensive system for a long time. I think he will fit perfectly.

Seriously, he's still so good. Obviously not the same player as in his prime but he will sometimes pull a move that reminds you of Phoenix Dragic.

He was their best player at times. In fact, he's like their Lowry.

Watch on YouTube

If the idea is that we want to see this team operate like we did last year plus a good C the whole way then we could do worse with replacing Lowry with Dragic plus two young developmental pieces we've lacked in Okpala and Precious.

If these guys develop then we're cooking and we trust that our player developmental team is pretty good, right?

They're betting that they can make the same sorts of leaps that Norm, OG, DeMar, JV, Jakob, Kyle, Fred, Pascal, etc made. Pretty much most (not all, tbf) of our guys got better, right?

Seems they also target a certain type of player mentally as well, right? That doesn't rest and generally strives internally to do better?

It sucks that this deal got held up but I can see why they did it. If Kyle is your GROAT, then you act accordingly. And they have. That will come back to us in the future.

Well imagine that with the caliber of prospect we have now?

I've really warmed up the idea of keeping him now lol. Worst case Ontario we can always trade him at the deadline.

[ATLTimekeeper]

Sure you do, you just stick picks to the salary you don't want and make the trade. This literally happens everywhere this is done. This is a boogeyman.

Now take this same mentality & switch in favour for the Raptors who did have cap space... Now maybe, you can understand why taking on an additional 19.5m of salary into our cap space just to get Achuiwa, isn't really good value for a S&T of Lowry

One is a general point, and the other is a specific situation. In general, you can attach picks to bad salary to make that salary go away. In this specific case, the Raptors were accommodating Lowry and getting something back in return. Not good value for Lowry, but good enough. You should be able to accept this.

[nonameguy]

I'm glad the Raptors don't have to take on any of the Mavs cast offs.

Absolutely, fk Dallas and no way raps waive him... raps need to think and act in what is the best interests of raps... i don't care about accommodating other players at our expense.... fkk this.

I know some of ya'll will be quick to point out that we're getting something in return for Kyle but at what cost ??
I don't think our plan was to absorb Dragic $19M contract, get Precious Achiuwa and sign a bunch of international scrubs ???
I know Masai can't do no wrong on this board and he's earned his reputation hence everyone is giving him a pass which is fine.
But I have to say that he's been a little bit off with some of the moves that he made since last year like the whole Ibaka/Gasol/Baynes debacle!

CAN do no wrong -- not can't. If he can't do no wrong, then he's doing everything wrong

[Skeezo]

Sure you do, you just stick picks to the salary you don't want and make the trade. This literally happens everywhere this is done. This is a boogeyman.

Now take this same mentality & switch in favour for the Raptors who did have cap space... Now maybe, you can understand why taking on an additional 19.5m of salary into our cap space just to get Achuiwa, isn't really good value for a S&T of Lowry

One is a general point, and the other is a specific situation. In general, you can attach picks to bad salary to make that salary go away. In this specific case, the Raptors were accommodating Lowry and getting something back in return. Not good value for Lowry, but good enough. You should be able to accept this.

Dude, it's **** value and you know it... Let's not parse words... The Raptors literally are taking on a 19.5m contract that NOBODY in the league wants, including a team that needs a PG and has a star countryman of Dragic's playing for it... The Raptors legitimately S&T Kyle Lowry & all of their cap space (17m) for the rights to Achuiwa... As, I keep saying, he better be a Monster because the Raptors paid handsomely for him.

[Asif16]

When the deadline for this.

[canz55]

Most Heat fans hate the trade and are really sad to see dragic go...

I think ppl underrate Dragic, he's tough as nails and played in a defensive system for a long time. I think he will fit perfectly.

Seriously, he's still so good. Obviously not the same player as in his prime but he will sometimes pull a move that reminds you of Phoenix Dragic.

He was their best player at times. In fact, he's like their Lowry.

Watch on YouTube

If the idea is that we want to see this team operate like we did last year plus a good C the whole way then we could do worse with replacing Lowry with Dragic plus two young developmental pieces we've lacked in Okpala and Precious.

If these guys develop then we're cooking and we trust that our player developmental team is pretty good, right?

They're betting that they can make the same sorts of leaps that Norm, OG, DeMar, JV, Jakob, Kyle, Fred, Pascal, etc made. Pretty much most (not all, tbf) of our guys got better, right?

Seems they also target a certain type of player mentally as well, right? That doesn't rest and generally strives internally to do better?

It sucks that this deal got held up but I can see why they did it. If Kyle is your GROAT, then you act accordingly. And they have. That will come back to us in the future.

Well imagine that with the caliber of prospect we have now?

I've really warmed up the idea of keeping him now lol. Worst case Ontario we can always trade him at the deadline.

I see what you did there

[douggood]

what cap space people are pining over. the 17 mil cap space we limbo into?

lets see what players signed for more than mle and less than $17

devonte graham rfa (s&t) for 4 year 47
holmes 4yr 55
derrick rose 3 year 43
doug mcdermmit 3 yr 42
kelly olynyk 3yr 37

[ATLTimekeeper]

• Just curious... How do you know what the offers were? Ever since the deadline, yourself (along with others), have shouted down any person who said certain deals were on the table as purely "speculation" ... As a result, are you not only "speculating" that the offers are the same now as they were at the deadline?
• Secondly, how is taking on an EXTRA 19.5m dollars in Dragic, who could have been waived prior to free agency close to the same deal that was "speculated" at the deadline?

I'm speculating that the offers were about the same, yes. It's close to the same whether Dragic represents cap or not. I personally think he's worth more to the Raptors or another team than just being waived and replaced by what the FA market had to offer, but none of this is franchise altering stuff.

• This really is some good sophistry, but sophistry nonetheless
• Regardless of how players have left, Damon, VC, Bosh, or DeRozan all RAVE about their time in Toronto.
• We are known as "White Vegas" and have been a Top 5 destination for visiting players for years for a variety of reasons... Mona Halem has established an entire career for herself around it. None of it has turned us into a no-tax haven or warm weather market for premier free agent target.
• Kyle leaving on a "good note," though nice, provides minimal additional punch to what we have already established as a city & organization.
• Also, just remember, it's the same ruthless guy in charge who traded DeRozan as who established this "Kyle Lowry" standard you're talking about. A player will remember what they want to remember about a city/organization.

Those players you mentioned aren't raving about management or ownership. The city is not up for debate, it's inflexible, but the organization is. You've confused these things here. As for Masai's ruthlessness, I don't see it as ruthless. He lied to DeMar's face to protect the trade talks. That's a difficult position, but it wasn't meant to be a cold-hearted one, and they've since mended fences.

• What do the two have to do with one another, can we not be thankful and critical of both?
• I can write a novel about my wife's actions that annoy me (and I'm sure vice-versa), but that doesn't take away my love for her, or the million other things she does amazing. I feel the same way about our Franchise and Organization
• Finally, when did we ever have a reputation of not paying players, or not being a place you couldn't get a contract from? Yogi Stewart would disagree.

You do you