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Bulls sign Alex Caruso - 4 years, $37 million

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Re: Bulls sign Alex Caruso - 4 years, $37 million 

Post#301 » by MGB8 » Wed Aug 4, 2021 3:48 pm

Jeffster81 wrote:Comparing Hinrich and Caruso is lazy.


Not fully. The defensive feet / in-opponents-chest style is similar. Offensively, completely different. Defensively, Caruso is more athletic and a touch taller/longer, but the perimeter defensive style is comparable.
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Re: Bulls sign Alex Caruso - 4 years, $37 million 

Post#302 » by GoBlue72391 » Thu Aug 5, 2021 4:14 pm

MGB8 wrote:
Jeffster81 wrote:Comparing Hinrich and Caruso is lazy.


Not fully. The defensive feet / in-opponents-chest style is similar. Offensively, completely different. Defensively, Caruso is more athletic and a touch taller/longer, but the perimeter defensive style is comparable.

I admit I haven't seen a ton of Caruso, but if he's even half the defender Kirk was then he'll be a huge addition.
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Re: Bulls sign Alex Caruso - 4 years, $37 million 

Post#303 » by HomoSapien » Thu Aug 5, 2021 6:45 pm

So some time has gone by, and as of today I still feel like we made a mistake picking Caruso over Theis. I don't love how our front-court depth is shaping up, especially on the defensive end. I think we're going to spend the entire season talking about how to find a defensive-minded 4. I'd like to know what exactly happened here. It was a good trade and he ended up signing with a bad team for a fairly cheap amount. To me that suggests that we probably didn't even make him an offer to come back.
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Re: Bulls sign Alex Caruso - 4 years, $37 million 

Post#304 » by Peelboy » Thu Aug 5, 2021 6:54 pm

HomoSapien wrote:So some time has gone by, and as of today I still feel like we made a mistake picking Caruso over Theis. I don't love how our front-court depth is shaping up, especially on the defensive end. I think we're going to spend the entire season talking about how to find a defensive-minded 4. I'd like to know what exactly happened here. It was a good trade and he ended up signing with a bad team for a fairly cheap amount. To me that suggests that we probably didn't even make him an offer to come back.

To me it's all dependent on the next steps. Seems in general that good 3&D wings (Caruso) are harder to find bargains on than defensive bigs. Feel like offensively challenged defender/rebounder guys can generally be found cheap (Tony Bradley). If you find maybe not a Theis but Theis-lite, then they made the right move IMO. Between MLE, Lauri, that seems likely.
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Re: Bulls sign Alex Caruso - 4 years, $37 million 

Post#305 » by HomoSapien » Thu Aug 5, 2021 6:58 pm

Peelboy wrote:
HomoSapien wrote:So some time has gone by, and as of today I still feel like we made a mistake picking Caruso over Theis. I don't love how our front-court depth is shaping up, especially on the defensive end. I think we're going to spend the entire season talking about how to find a defensive-minded 4. I'd like to know what exactly happened here. It was a good trade and he ended up signing with a bad team for a fairly cheap amount. To me that suggests that we probably didn't even make him an offer to come back.

To me it's all dependent on the next steps. Seems in general that good 3&D wings (Caruso) are harder to find bargains on than defensive bigs. Feel like offensively challenged defender/rebounder guys can generally be found cheap (Tony Bradley). If you find maybe not a Theis but Theis-lite, then they made the right move IMO. Between MLE, Lauri, that seems likely.


Caruso is more of a point guard/combo guard. I think he definitely helps, but his minutes are automatically capped due to Ball, Lonzo, and Coby all getting significant playing time. I guess you can look at is as Caruso and Bradley vs Theis + a minimum point guard but Theis seemed more important to me. Good defender, could actually hit the occasional three, brought some athleticism to the team, and could play small ball-five or be the four in a more traditional lineup. I really believe we're going to be questioning this all season long, but the off-season isn't over yet so let's see what happens.
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Re: Bulls sign Alex Caruso - 4 years, $37 million 

Post#306 » by Dresden » Thu Aug 5, 2021 7:00 pm

Theis had his limitations. Yes, he could provide a spark at times. But Caruso will too. I think their primary concern was perimeter defense. We got carved up too many time last year by opposing guards. Caruso will help with that, and he can hit a 3, and can handle the ball a little bit. Overall, he's likely to contribute more than Theis would have.

It all depends, too, on who we end up bringing in to help the frontcourt. Let's see what AK does there, before judging this trade on it's own merits.
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Re: Bulls sign Alex Caruso - 4 years, $37 million 

Post#307 » by GoBlue72391 » Thu Aug 5, 2021 7:00 pm

HomoSapien wrote:So some time has gone by, and as of today I still feel like we made a mistake picking Caruso over Theis. I don't love how our front-court depth is shaping up, especially on the defensive end. I think we're going to spend the entire season talking about how to find a defensive-minded 4. I'd like to know what exactly happened here. It was a good trade and he ended up signing with a bad team for a fairly cheap amount. To me that suggests that we probably didn't even make him an offer to come back.

Yeah, I would agree with that, but the fact that Caruso is apparently one of the best point of attack defenders in the league makes the decision to sign him hard to argue with considering that was arguably our biggest weakness last season. Considering we may still have our MLE and we had Theis's early Bird rights, it seems like we would have been able to acquire Caruso and keep Theis which would have been ideal. Given the reasonable contract Theis signed I can only assume we didn't prioritize keeping him for whatever reason or he simply didn't want to stay in Chicago.
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Re: Bulls sign Alex Caruso - 4 years, $37 million 

Post#308 » by GoBlue72391 » Thu Aug 5, 2021 7:04 pm

HomoSapien wrote:
Peelboy wrote:
HomoSapien wrote:So some time has gone by, and as of today I still feel like we made a mistake picking Caruso over Theis. I don't love how our front-court depth is shaping up, especially on the defensive end. I think we're going to spend the entire season talking about how to find a defensive-minded 4. I'd like to know what exactly happened here. It was a good trade and he ended up signing with a bad team for a fairly cheap amount. To me that suggests that we probably didn't even make him an offer to come back.

To me it's all dependent on the next steps. Seems in general that good 3&D wings (Caruso) are harder to find bargains on than defensive bigs. Feel like offensively challenged defender/rebounder guys can generally be found cheap (Tony Bradley). If you find maybe not a Theis but Theis-lite, then they made the right move IMO. Between MLE, Lauri, that seems likely.


Caruso is more of a point guard/combo guard. I think he definitely helps, but his minutes are automatically capped due to Ball, Lonzo, and Coby all getting significant playing time. I guess you can look at is as Caruso and Bradley vs Theis + a minimum point guard but Theis seemed more important to me. Good defender, could actually hit the occasional three, brought some athleticism to the team, and could play small ball-five or be the four in a more traditional lineup. I really believe we're going to be questioning this all season long, but the off-season isn't over yet so let's see what happens.

I think Caruso is likely a 15-16 MPG guy as it stands right now, and $9.5M is a pretty steep price to pay for a bit player like that, but I could also see him eating away at Coby's minutes eventually depending on how he performs after returning from injury and the fact that we'll likely end up needing Caruso's defense more than Coby's scoring given our plethora of other scoring options.
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Re: Bulls sign Alex Caruso - 4 years, $37 million 

Post#309 » by MGB8 » Thu Aug 5, 2021 7:08 pm

HomoSapien wrote:
Peelboy wrote:
HomoSapien wrote:So some time has gone by, and as of today I still feel like we made a mistake picking Caruso over Theis. I don't love how our front-court depth is shaping up, especially on the defensive end. I think we're going to spend the entire season talking about how to find a defensive-minded 4. I'd like to know what exactly happened here. It was a good trade and he ended up signing with a bad team for a fairly cheap amount. To me that suggests that we probably didn't even make him an offer to come back.

To me it's all dependent on the next steps. Seems in general that good 3&D wings (Caruso) are harder to find bargains on than defensive bigs. Feel like offensively challenged defender/rebounder guys can generally be found cheap (Tony Bradley). If you find maybe not a Theis but Theis-lite, then they made the right move IMO. Between MLE, Lauri, that seems likely.


Caruso is more of a point guard/combo guard. I think he definitely helps, but his minutes are automatically capped due to Ball, Lonzo, and Coby all getting significant playing time. I guess you can look at is as Caruso and Bradley vs Theis + a minimum point guard but Theis seemed more important to me. Good defender, could actually hit the occasional three, brought some athleticism to the team, and could play small ball-five or be the four in a more traditional lineup. I really believe we're going to be questioning this all season long, but the off-season isn't over yet so let's see what happens.


I tend to agree, but the offseason isn't over yet.

Birch is likely to go back to Toronto but would be a Theis like player - can play 4 or 5, can block some shots, can hit an occasional 3 (29% on 1.6 per game for TO last season). Boucher would be an even better version.

Not nearly as establihsed, but with some upside - 25 year old Cameron Oliver, who played 22 minutes per game for 4 games for Houston at the end of the season, put up ~ 11/5 with 1 block and 31% from 3 on 3.3 attempts per game. 3 seasons ago (18-19), still 25 year old Bruno Caboclo in 23 minutes per game put up ~8/4.5/1blk with 37% from 3 on 3.8 3 attempts per game (but then 19-20 and 20-21 were virtual DNPs, went to Europe, supposedly considering coming back).

And, who knows, maybe the flashes of effort and feet on defense we saw from Lauri aren't mirages and he stays and shines, accepting a lesser role (I have my doubts, but who knows).
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Re: Bulls sign Alex Caruso - 4 years, $37 million 

Post#310 » by StunnerKO » Thu Aug 5, 2021 7:26 pm

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Re: Bulls sign Alex Caruso - 4 years, $37 million 

Post#311 » by waffle » Thu Aug 5, 2021 7:35 pm

If we could slow down the point of attack our 4/5's, whomever they are, are going to look better. We were a freaking RUNWAY at times on the perimeter. Vuc, not a great defender and not the quickest dude, was left out to dry. And Lauri, bless his little finnish heart, may be the worst player on switches I have ever seen. Dear god....

ALL I WANTED the off season was a guard or 2 to push the ball and defend the perimeter. We got that and more.

I think we'll manage at the 4/5. I think we'll find a rotation that works.
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Re: Bulls sign Alex Caruso - 4 years, $37 million 

Post#312 » by Peelboy » Thu Aug 5, 2021 8:10 pm

HomoSapien wrote:
Peelboy wrote:
HomoSapien wrote:So some time has gone by, and as of today I still feel like we made a mistake picking Caruso over Theis. I don't love how our front-court depth is shaping up, especially on the defensive end. I think we're going to spend the entire season talking about how to find a defensive-minded 4. I'd like to know what exactly happened here. It was a good trade and he ended up signing with a bad team for a fairly cheap amount. To me that suggests that we probably didn't even make him an offer to come back.

To me it's all dependent on the next steps. Seems in general that good 3&D wings (Caruso) are harder to find bargains on than defensive bigs. Feel like offensively challenged defender/rebounder guys can generally be found cheap (Tony Bradley). If you find maybe not a Theis but Theis-lite, then they made the right move IMO. Between MLE, Lauri, that seems likely.


Caruso is more of a point guard/combo guard. I think he definitely helps, but his minutes are automatically capped due to Ball, Lonzo, and Coby all getting significant playing time. I guess you can look at is as Caruso and Bradley vs Theis + a minimum point guard but Theis seemed more important to me. Good defender, could actually hit the occasional three, brought some athleticism to the team, and could play small ball-five or be the four in a more traditional lineup. I really believe we're going to be questioning this all season long, but the off-season isn't over yet so let's see what happens.


This may be part of the difference of opinion, but I envision the Bulls going with a lot of 3-guard lineups, swinging DeMar to 4 (or keeping PW there and sitting DeMar), with Zach/Lonzo moving up. That opens up time for Caruso. Coby is a huge ? because of the injury and time he'll take to get back in basketball shape plus the fact that he's currently at best bench offense. I tihnk he's likely the one getting squeezed not Caruso. I envision minutes shaking out something like this in a somewhat positionless rotation:

PG/SG/SF: Zach(34), Lonzo (34), DeMar(23), Caruso(25), Coby(20), PW(5),Ayo(3)
PF: PW(30), DeMar(7), Bradley(5), ???(6)
C: Vuc(32), Bradley (10), ???(6)

The wildcard in all of this is Lauri. If he returns or brings back a currently useful big, that upends the rotations, pushing everyone else down and squeezing Caruso/Coby/Ayo. But at this specific point in time, I think Coby is situational in the minds of the FO and may be best used as an asset in trade to someone who's interested in trying to continue to develop him as a lead guard rather than an off-guard/bench scorer.
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Re: Bulls sign Alex Caruso - 4 years, $37 million 

Post#313 » by Jeffster81 » Thu Aug 5, 2021 9:35 pm

HomoSapien wrote:So some time has gone by, and as of today I still feel like we made a mistake picking Caruso over Theis. I don't love how our front-court depth is shaping up, especially on the defensive end. I think we're going to spend the entire season talking about how to find a defensive-minded 4. I'd like to know what exactly happened here. It was a good trade and he ended up signing with a bad team for a fairly cheap amount. To me that suggests that we probably didn't even make him an offer to come back.


I am going to wait and see what the end product is before I make that decision of picking Caruso over Theis was a mistake or not.
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Re: Bulls sign Alex Caruso - 4 years, $37 million 

Post#314 » by sco » Thu Aug 5, 2021 9:46 pm

Jeffster81 wrote:
HomoSapien wrote:So some time has gone by, and as of today I still feel like we made a mistake picking Caruso over Theis. I don't love how our front-court depth is shaping up, especially on the defensive end. I think we're going to spend the entire season talking about how to find a defensive-minded 4. I'd like to know what exactly happened here. It was a good trade and he ended up signing with a bad team for a fairly cheap amount. To me that suggests that we probably didn't even make him an offer to come back.


I am going to wait and see what the end product is before I make that decision of picking Caruso over Theis was a mistake or not.

I think Theis would have been the better choice if we didn't have designs on Derozan. With Pat moving over to PF, a lot of those PF minutes, where Theis would be valuable (when Vuc is playing), wouldn't be there anymore. Also, I think the Bulls were planning on keeping Thad at that point, which would have further reduced available Theis minutes. Theis, purely as a rim protecting C is less valuable, as a number of guys can fill that role more cheaply around the league...his extra value was his PF rim protection.
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Re: Bulls sign Alex Caruso - 4 years, $37 million 

Post#315 » by Dan Z » Thu Aug 5, 2021 11:35 pm

GoBlue72391 wrote:
HomoSapien wrote:So some time has gone by, and as of today I still feel like we made a mistake picking Caruso over Theis. I don't love how our front-court depth is shaping up, especially on the defensive end. I think we're going to spend the entire season talking about how to find a defensive-minded 4. I'd like to know what exactly happened here. It was a good trade and he ended up signing with a bad team for a fairly cheap amount. To me that suggests that we probably didn't even make him an offer to come back.

Yeah, I would agree with that, but the fact that Caruso is apparently one of the best point of attack defenders in the league makes the decision to sign him hard to argue with considering that was arguably our biggest weakness last season. Considering we may still have our MLE and we had Theis's early Bird rights, it seems like we would have been able to acquire Caruso and keep Theis which would have been ideal. Given the reasonable contract Theis signed I can only assume we didn't prioritize keeping him for whatever reason or he simply didn't want to stay in Chicago.


Won't Lonzo help with that?
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Re: Bulls sign Alex Caruso - 4 years, $37 million 

Post#316 » by Michael Jackson » Fri Aug 6, 2021 1:23 am

Dresden wrote:Theis had his limitations. Yes, he could provide a spark at times. But Caruso will too. I think their primary concern was perimeter defense. We got carved up too many time last year by opposing guards. Caruso will help with that, and he can hit a 3, and can handle the ball a little bit. Overall, he's likely to contribute more than Theis would have.

It all depends, too, on who we end up bringing in to help the frontcourt. Let's see what AK does there, before judging this trade on it's own merits.



I agree, they won't do the same thing but I think they will have similar impact on the court as you mentioned
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Re: Bulls sign Alex Caruso - 4 years, $37 million 

Post#317 » by Michael Jackson » Fri Aug 6, 2021 1:27 am

Jeffster81 wrote:
HomoSapien wrote:So some time has gone by, and as of today I still feel like we made a mistake picking Caruso over Theis. I don't love how our front-court depth is shaping up, especially on the defensive end. I think we're going to spend the entire season talking about how to find a defensive-minded 4. I'd like to know what exactly happened here. It was a good trade and he ended up signing with a bad team for a fairly cheap amount. To me that suggests that we probably didn't even make him an offer to come back.


I am going to wait and see what the end product is before I make that decision of picking Caruso over Theis was a mistake or not.



Fully agree. I also think that finding that defensive minded 4 is an easier hole to plug than the skill set Caruso brings. That being said I would have loved to keep Theis but in AK's plan he never seemed to be long term so I assume he has something else in mind.
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Re: Bulls sign Alex Caruso - 4 years, $37 million 

Post#318 » by nomorezorro » Fri Aug 6, 2021 1:39 am

Dan Z wrote:
GoBlue72391 wrote:Yeah, I would agree with that, but the fact that Caruso is apparently one of the best point of attack defenders in the league makes the decision to sign him hard to argue with considering that was arguably our biggest weakness last season. Considering we may still have our MLE and we had Theis's early Bird rights, it seems like we would have been able to acquire Caruso and keep Theis which would have been ideal. Given the reasonable contract Theis signed I can only assume we didn't prioritize keeping him for whatever reason or he simply didn't want to stay in Chicago.


Won't Lonzo help with that?


he's an upgrade over coby (who wouldn't be), but lonzo is more of a team defender than a shutdown man-to-man guy

in any case it doesn't hurt to have multiple plus defenders when derozan/coby/lavine all figure into the rotation and vucevic needs all the help he can get
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Re: Bulls sign Alex Caruso - 4 years, $37 million 

Post#319 » by Grodoboldo » Fri Aug 6, 2021 2:04 pm

Read on Twitter


@kmedved: Caruso grades as the best non-big man defender in the time-decayed RAPM which DARKO uses as a training data for DPM. I don't have confidence in how that'll translate to a very different environment in Chicago (context!), but that's somewhat eye popping for me. https://t.co/pKDSOxWBd3
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Re: Bulls sign Alex Caruso - 4 years, $37 million 

Post#320 » by kodo » Sat Aug 7, 2021 2:35 am

Agreed I'm also unhappy with the Theis situation, although I'm 100% pro Caruso. There was no reason to choose.
I remember reading the issue was the # of years and his age. We didn't even give Derozan 4 years.

I suspect the events unfolded this way:
1. AKME plans on a starting 5 of Lonzo, Lavine, Derozan, Thad-Theis, Vucevic
2. SAS & CHI agree to a Lauri S&T for Markkanen
3. Theis gets offered a 4 year deal, longer than what AK wanted. They let him go.
4. Lauri's agent refuses to sign w. SAS
5. SAS & CHI still cobble something together but send Thad out instead of Lauri

So in the end we lose both Thad & Theis and end up still having Lauri.
The original Lonzo-Lavine-Derozan-Thad/Theis-Vucevic lineup would have been very solid.

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