Free Agency Thread

[SCTwins]

I feel like many are so desperate to raise our floor in the next week, that they don’t care about collapsing the ceiling - longterm. Other teams are getting stuff now, so they want something too - even in our worst way to get it, free agency.

I do not believe Lauri Markannen is now, or has ever been, even an average NBA defender. And even if he was, the player we put next to Towns needs to be, at a minimum, better than “average.”

The issue is more than the money with Markannen. It is paying that money for three or four years.

I think most people know what we need in a big man next to Towns. We need someone to compliment him, to build the team correctly so we can truly grow. We don’t need a guy who is a pale reflection of him, offensively and defensively. He helps us where we don’t need help, and hurts us where we do.

Edit: Ditto for Gallo.

100% agree.

Markannen and Gallo do nothing for me. They are better versions of Juancho offensively, but do nothing to help our defense. Not worth giving up any assets for.

And trading Beasley now (who would almost certainly be in the deals) would be stupid. His trade value is at it's lowest.

Why would his trade value be at it's lowest? I would have thought that was when charges were first brought against him. Now it's all pretty much resolved.

He played 37 games last season and just finished a jail sentence..

[Tjstangeland]

I agree with all of you but a player that your looking for doesn't exist for the wolves unless we give up major assets to aquire. We have two players to build around right now so we should build around those players right now.

Unless I'm missing someone the two best players left that we could aquire is Simmons or Lauri. I'm not looking to give the assets needed to obtain Simmons. Lauri is there for minimum assets that could make our team better now so why not do it? Lauri would be our starting 4, he would be better than juancho or vando. But again depends on how much we can get him for.

[Domejandro]

Wolves will have the capspace next summer to sign Aaron Gordon lol

Unless he is signing for twelve million a year, nope! Minnesota is pretty much strapped on signing anyone above around 13ish million dollars, unless they trade off Beasley.

[Domejandro]

I feel like many are so desperate to raise our floor in the next week, that they don’t care about collapsing the ceiling - longterm. Other teams are getting stuff now, so they want something too - even in our worst way to get it, free agency.

I do not believe Lauri Markannen is now, or has ever been, even an average NBA defender. And even if he was, the player we put next to Towns needs to be, at a minimum, better than “average.”

The issue is more than the money with Markannen. It is paying that money for three or four years.

I think most people know what we need in a big man next to Towns. We need someone to compliment him, to build the team correctly so we can truly grow. We don’t need a guy who is a pale reflection of him, offensively and defensively. He helps us where we don’t need help, and hurts us where we do.

Edit: Ditto for Gallo.

I am going to be honest, after months of arguing against players like Ben Simmon/other non-shooters because it "takes away Karl-Anthony Towns' mismatch as an offensive player," it's a little weird to turn around and shoot down a player like Lauri Markkanen. It feels like you want a magical player that is excellent on both ends of the court that makes the MLE.

Lauri is roughly average defensively, he has never been the defensive problem with that Chicago Bulls team. Would I prefer an elite defensive player? Sure, but I am going to blunt, we are not getting one that is not completely unplayable offensively. Markkanen would absolutely be an upgrade defensively over the likes of Juancho Hernangómez, Naz Reid, and Jake Layman. Because of the state of Minnesota's Power-Forward rotation, Lauri Markkanen is unfortunately a defensive upgrade, alongside a MASSIVE offensive one.

Regardless, Minnesota is already relatively strapped cap wise, they owe over $100MM next year (picking up Nowell, Edwards, and Reid, dumping Jarrett Culver and Juancho), and this number increases when you consider any other cap holds/bird rights. Frankly, Minnesota is not getting a better player than Lauri Markkanen with that amount of cap space, and we would run into the SAME exact talking about how a player is "too expensive" and "hurts flexibility". From my perspective, it legitimately feels like you are comfortable just kicking the can down the road in perpetuity over making any serious moves. I just don't think that is a serious way to field a winning team.

[KGdaBom]

100% agree.

Markannen and Gallo do nothing for me. They are better versions of Juancho offensively, but do nothing to help our defense. Not worth giving up any assets for.

And trading Beasley now (who would almost certainly be in the deals) would be stupid. His trade value is at it's lowest.

Why would his trade value be at it's lowest? I would have thought that was when charges were first brought against him. Now it's all pretty much resolved.

He played 37 games last season and just finished a jail sentence..[/quote]
Exactly. That's why his value would be much higher than before he finished his jail sentence.

[fattymcgee]

I know that’s not exciting, but we weren’t likely to find someone exciting in free agency. I feel our best path is through trade and internal development of our existing youth. We are still holding a mitt full of expiring contracts that will only become more valuable as we close in on the February deadline. I think we need to stay flexible and wait for some team to fall apart between now and then. Right now there may be as few as four teams in the league that are sellers and not buyers, so they get great prices. We need a major injury or a clubhouse fight that puts a good PF on the market.

And if I haven’t said it, I want that PF to be a good defender and an average three point shooter - I will sacrifice scoring to find a player that we can afford.

shrink,

What poster has talked about making an outright signing to solve the PF position? From what I've read, the discussion has hinged on S&T (Collins and Markkanen).

I wouldn't mind Millsap, though you've simply put a band-aid on a bigger wound. Rosas will once again have to go shopping.

Long-term, Markkanen's age fits the timeline. He'd grow alongside McDaniels and Towns. I accept he is not an ideal fit, but as others have said, he is an upgrade over the PF by committee used a season ago (and what appears to be the path forward).

As for having to send back a first round pick, tough pill to swallow. If the protections are lottery-based for a year or two, then turn into one or two seconds after, that's not a death knell -- should the Wolves falter, they still keep their pick.

The bigger issue for me would be paying Markkanen anything over $15M a year...

I think those are the issues that most of the people are having with getting Markanen. They don't hate him, but don't want to give up a 1st rounder, overpay, or give up Beasley.
I know you didn't mention Beasley but others have, but that trade would be a wash. The point would be gaining assets.

[KGdaBom]

I take it you guys are content on what we have and want to role with it. I don't think its good enough. no players want to play with us because we are the Timberwolves. A S&T is the only way we can improve this team. I don't like Simmons because he can't shoot and make free throws. He is a liability but people want to give multiple 1sy round picks for him why I don't know.

Lauri is not a liability on the offensive end and people who won't give up a protected 1st round pick plus some fillers to improve this team is wrong.

The difference between Simmons and Markkannen is that Simmons is good at basketball despite his FT% and distance shooting. I'm not in favor of giving up multiple FRPs for Simmons though.

[KGdaBom]

I take it you guys are content on what we have and want to role with it. I don't think its good enough. no players want to play with us because we are the Timberwolves. A S&T is the only way we can improve this team. I don't like Simmons because he can't shoot and make free throws. He is a liability but people want to give multiple 1sy round picks for him why I don't know.

Lauri is not a liability on the offensive end and people who won't give up a protected 1st round pick plus some fillers to improve this team is wrong.

The vast majority doesn't want to trade multiple 1st for Simmons either. We are not giving a 1st for him, okay?

What the hell. Still agreeing on everything. Who are you and what have you done with so money?

[SCTwins]

Why would his trade value be at it's lowest? I would have thought that was when charges were first brought against him. Now it's all pretty much resolved.

He played 37 games last season and just finished a jail sentence..[/quote]
Exactly. That's why his value would be much higher than before he finished his jail sentence.

Fair enough.

I think his value would be much higher if he plays well until the break. Maybe a contender will poach him out of desperation.

[KGdaBom]

He played 37 games last season and just finished a jail sentence..[/quote]
Exactly. That's why his value would be much higher than before he finished his jail sentence.

Fair enough.

I think his value would be much higher if he plays well until the break. Maybe a contender will poach him out of desperation.

If he plays at LeBron James level his value will go through the roof. Of course his value goes up as he plays well. If he plays poorly his value will go down.

[shrink]

Why would his trade value be at it's lowest? I would have thought that was when charges were first brought against him. Now it's all pretty much resolved.

He played 37 games last season and just finished a jail sentence..[/quote]
Exactly. That's why his value would be much higher than before he finished his jail sentence.

i can understand your point SC, and I’ve heard it expressed by posters from other teams that have talked about the PR hit of adding Beasley (who’s in jail now). That is certainly an issue, but the NBA has always looked the other way for major crimes when a player can help them.

I tend to agree here with KGdaBom. The way I see it, Rosas gave Beasley that contract like a week after the incident. I am on record saying that I thought he should have fought harder on the deal because of the risk it represented, but the contract has turned out to be a good one.

When Rosas offered that guaranteed salary, he took on the risk of:

1. Beasley missing games from jail time
2. Beasley missing games from NBA suspension
3. Beasley’s issues being a problem for the team (focusing on his own problems)
4. Beasley being able to repeat his 20 PPG, 40% 3P performance from the end of the previous season.

As it turned out, Beasley has passed all those hurdles now. He has served his punishments, he’s kept his nose clean for a year, everyone says he’s been a good teammate and hard worker, and when he played he continued to play well.

GM’s (moreso than message board posters) always assess risk. It’s part of their job, as they predict all the different scenarios in the future. Beasley is a much less risky player on that contract now, so I think his trade value has improved.

[shrink]

I feel like many are so desperate to raise our floor in the next week, that they don’t care about collapsing the ceiling - longterm. Other teams are getting stuff now, so they want something too - even in our worst way to get it, free agency.

I do not believe Lauri Markannen is now, or has ever been, even an average NBA defender. And even if he was, the player we put next to Towns needs to be, at a minimum, better than “average.”

The issue is more than the money with Markannen. It is paying that money for three or four years.

I think most people know what we need in a big man next to Towns. We need someone to compliment him, to build the team correctly so we can truly grow. We don’t need a guy who is a pale reflection of him, offensively and defensively. He helps us where we don’t need help, and hurts us where we do.

Edit: Ditto for Gallo.

I am going to be honest, after months of arguing against players like Ben Simmon/other non-shooters because it "takes away Karl-Anthony Towns' mismatch as an offensive player," it's a little weird to turn around and shoot down a player like Lauri Markkanen. It feels like you want a magical player that is excellent on both ends of the court that makes the MLE..

If feels like you are intentionally, extremely, misrepresenting my position, since in the very next post, I literally wrote

And if I haven’t said it, I want that PF to be a good defender and an average three point shooter - I will sacrifice scoring to find a player that we can afford.

I also disagree with you that Markannen is a defensive upgrade over Vanderbilt or McDaniels. If you believe Markannen is even an average defender, I suggest you read this

https://pippenainteasy.com/2020/06/16/chicago-bulls-3-areas-where-lauri-markkanen-needs-to-improve-the-most/4/

[Domejandro]

I feel like many are so desperate to raise our floor in the next week, that they don’t care about collapsing the ceiling - longterm. Other teams are getting stuff now, so they want something too - even in our worst way to get it, free agency.

I do not believe Lauri Markannen is now, or has ever been, even an average NBA defender. And even if he was, the player we put next to Towns needs to be, at a minimum, better than “average.”

The issue is more than the money with Markannen. It is paying that money for three or four years.

I think most people know what we need in a big man next to Towns. We need someone to compliment him, to build the team correctly so we can truly grow. We don’t need a guy who is a pale reflection of him, offensively and defensively. He helps us where we don’t need help, and hurts us where we do.

Edit: Ditto for Gallo.

I am going to be honest, after months of arguing against players like Ben Simmon/other non-shooters because it "takes away Karl-Anthony Towns' mismatch as an offensive player," it's a little weird to turn around and shoot down a player like Lauri Markkanen. It feels like you want a magical player that is excellent on both ends of the court that makes the MLE..

If feels like you are intentionally misrepresenting my position, since in the very next post, I literally wrote

And if I haven’t said it, I want that PF to be a good defender and an average three point shooter - I will sacrifice scoring to find a player that we can afford.

That was very mild hyperbole, I stand by my entire post.

Let's look at 2022 options at the big men positions.

Power-Forwards
--------

Spoiler:

Al-Farouq Aminu (UFA): Dude is washed
Kyle Anderson (UFA): More of a Small-Forward, not a major defensive presence. Solid player.
Marvin Bagley III (RFA): Poor defensive player. Motor concerns.
Miles Bridges (RFA): Bad defensive player, more of a Small-Forward.
Chris Boucher (UFA): Could be a target, might be out of Minnesota's price point.
Robert Covington (UFA): Has declined, more of a Small-Forward. Could be a target.
Aaron Gordon (UFA): Good target (despite his play in Denver). Likely going to make more than Minnesota can offer.
Dorian Finney-Smith (UFA): Combo-Forward, but this is a pretty solid target.
Anthony Gill (RFA): Not a starter.
Montrezl Harrell: Net-negative defensive player.
Danuel House (UFA): Small-Forward, no rim protection.
Chandler Hutchison (RFA): Not a defensive presence. Not a starter.
Joe Ingles (UFA): Combo-forward. Awesome player, but not a defensive threat, any more. Declining.
Jaren Jackson Jr. (RFA): Excellent fit, but outside of Minnesota's price range. Perpetually injured.
Derrick Jones Jr. (UFA): Wing player, weak shooter. Poor defense.
Jake Layman (UFA): Wing player, but we have Bird-Rights.
Kevon Looney (UFA): Maybe a stopgap target, but doesn't have range.
Daniel Oturu (RFA): Nonfactor offensively, not a starter at all.
Eric Paschall (RFA): Bad defensive player with limited range. Small-Forward.
Jabari Parker (UFA): Awful defensively
Michael Porter Jr. (RFA): Likely out of Minnesota's price range. Bad defender, but could improve.
Taurean Prince (UFA): Small-Forward, but we have Bird Rights.
Anthony Tolliver (UFA): We get the Timbertrolls back, so maybe a serious target.
T.J. Warren (UFA): Bad defensive player, great offensive player. Will he bounce back from his injury?
Thaddeus Young (UFA): Maybe a stopgap fit? Doesn't really shoot from behind the arc any more.

Centers
--------

Spoiler:

Deandre Ayton (RFA): Staying with Phoenix, zero shot.
Mo Bamba (RFA): Interesting prospect that just can't put it together. Questionable fit next to Towns.
Aron Baynes (UFA): Frightening injury status. Good player, otherwise.
Bol Bol (RFA): Disaster.
Thomas Bryant (UFA): I really like Thomas Bryant, but he is not a defensive player.
Wendell Carter Jr. (RFA): Potential fit, even if not ideal defensively.
Nicolas Claxton (RFA): Nonfactor offensively
Willie Cauley-Stein (UFA): Nonfactor offensively
Marc Gasol (UFA): Pretty washed, he is not signing with Minnesota.
Serge Ibaka (UFA): Pretty washed, he is not signing with Minnesota.
Damian Jones (UFA): Nonfactor offensively.
Jusuf Nurkić (UFA): Nonshooter, always injured. Good defender, but not mobile as a perimeter defensive player.
Jahlil Okafor (UFA): Not a starting-caliber player, no range.
Mitchell Robinson (RFA): Flashes of good defense, but zero offensive threat.
Tristan Thompson (UFA): Nonshooter, mediocre defensive player.
Jonas Valančiūnas (UFA): Great player, but not a major defensive presence. Outside of Minnesota's price range.
Robert Williams (RFA): Nonfactor offensively

Serious Targets:
Chris Boucher (cost?), Robert Covington (SF), Dorian Finney-Smith, Aaron Gordon (cost?), and Thaddeus Young (stopgap)

Those are the five players that are starting quality (kind of, with Young) that fit the criteria you are looking for. 3+D Power-Forwards/Centers are a serious luxury.

[King Malta]

Last thing I wanted to say about Markannen

I haven’t kept up too well on the Bulls, but by adding DeRozan and Lonzo Ball to LaVine, the Bulls are clearly going to act as an over-the-cap team. I know they are asking for a 1st round pick for Markannen, but if he got signed by another team, they not only lose him for nothing, but they lose his matching salary for other deals. This would be a big loss, since they want to have their payroll stay close to the lux as they try to win now to impress LaVine. In previous situations like these, we have even seen the team with the player give up a small asset, in order to keep that matching salary through a TPE. Do the Knicks, Pistons and Mavs still have cap space to sign him outright?

Anyway, my point is that the Bulls don’t want Markannen, and don’t want to lose that matching salary, so even fairly paid expirings might be a better option for them. If they feel Lauri is going to be overpaid in Year 2 (and 3 and 4), they may prefer an expiring. This is similar to our deal last year with Rubio and James Johnson - OKC preferred turning the multi year deal into an expiring, even if they gave up the better player.

So I am saying it would not shock me to see a deal with some combination of Juancho, Okogie, Layman or even Culver for Markannen - with no additional incentive! And even then, I am still so concerned about his lack of fit for multiple years that I would turn that deal down too, if Markannen wants to get paid what he has been demanding.

Hm, it's actually an interesting hypothetical.

I've not been on the Lauri train at all. I don't want another stretch forward who can't play defense at the Wolves....however, if we were able to get him for such a meh package and he ended up something like a 3 x 45 deal, I think I would seriously consider the option. He's not the greatest fit at all but he is definitely a clear talent upgrade, and if he doesn't work out the deal becomes an expiring after next season.

[shrink]

I am going to be honest, after months of arguing against players like Ben Simmon/other non-shooters because it "takes away Karl-Anthony Towns' mismatch as an offensive player," it's a little weird to turn around and shoot down a player like Lauri Markkanen. It feels like you want a magical player that is excellent on both ends of the court that makes the MLE..

If feels like you are intentionally misrepresenting my position, since in the very next post, I literally wrote

And if I haven’t said it, I want that PF to be a good defender and an average three point shooter - I will sacrifice scoring to find a player that we can afford.

That was very mild hyperbole, I stand by my entire post. .

Your argument is that since I think Simmons horrible shooting detracts from KAT’s match up abilities, that I should be in favor of a three point shooting PF, regardless of his defense? Next to Towns, of all people?

Unbelievable,

I mean, I literally,do not believe anyone could honestly argue this. Or accuse other people of this position.

[old school 34]

If feels like you are intentionally misrepresenting my position, since in the very next post, I literally wrote

That was very mild hyperbole, I stand by my entire post. .

Your argument is that since I think Simmons horrible shooting detracts from KAT’s match up abilities, that I should be in favor of a three point shooting PF, regardless of his defense? Next to Towns, of all people?

Unbelievable,

I mean, I literally,do not believe anyone could honestly argue this. Or accuse other people of this position.

Two fairly extreme ends....I get & not to get too deep into it specifically, Shrink you were pretty anti Gordon as well, correct?

And not disagreeing with some of your concerns & that's Rosas conundrum...when do you take a PF that isn't obvious match & trust coaching & development to make it work?

Does he really want all his expirings to just expire...that won't end well (FA in MN doesn't work)....& if you're going to use the expirings...whose the young player that your pairing with those expirings &/or draft picks to get the type of player that's a more obvious fit....the concern that I'm starting to have is I'm not sure I even see that guy coming around on the market still by say trade deadline?

If that doesn't work...you really only have Jaden gaining like 50 lbs & becoming a much stronger rebounder...drafting a guy & developing him...or Vando finds his shot?

Not that I'm pro-Lauri....but there almost has to be a price point that the Wolves take that shot...even if it means 3 yr contract.

Sent from my SM-G973U using RealGM mobile app

[Domejandro]

If feels like you are intentionally misrepresenting my position, since in the very next post, I literally wrote

That was very mild hyperbole, I stand by my entire post. .

Your argument is that since I think Simmons horrible shooting detracts from KAT’s match up abilities, that I should be in favor of a three point shooting PF, regardless of his defense? Next to Towns, of all people?

Unbelievable,

I mean, I literally,do not believe anyone could honestly argue this. Or accuse other people of this position.

Pretty impressive how you managed to circumnavigate the entire point of two larger posts, but you do you.

[shrink]

Two fairly extreme ends....I get & not to get too deep into it specifically, Shrink you were pretty anti Gordon as well, correct?

And not disagreeing with some of your concerns & that's Rosas conundrum...when do you take a PF that isn't obvious match & trust coaching & development to make it work?

Does he really want all his expirings to just expire...that won't end well (FA in MN doesn't work)....& if you're going to use the expirings...whose the young player that your pairing with those expirings &/or draft picks to get the type of player that's a more obvious fit....the concern that I'm starting to have is I'm not sure I even see that guy coming around on the market still by say trade deadline?

If that doesn't work...you really only have Jaden gaining like 50 lbs & becoming a much stronger rebounder...drafting a guy & developing him...or Vando finds his shot?

Not that I'm pro-Lauri....but there almost has to be a price point that the Wolves take that shot...even if it means 3 yr contract

I’ll try to give a sentence or two, but you know how I love to talk!

- Aaron Gordon as a player wouldn’t have been a bad fit, especially back when we were okay with undersized PF’s. He’s a good defender, and a good enough three point shooter to keep defenses honest. I worried about his price tag, both in what ORL wanted in trade for their “Star.” I also worry about his commitment to basketball, and if he’d be happy being the fourth/fifth option in MIN. Like with Lauri, MIN has limited resources, and we can’t afford to pay for overlap in areas we are already good at.

- if we are looking at coaching and developing, I hope we bring back Vanderbilt. His defensive base is what we are more in need of, and he would be a cheaper risk if our coaching and development failed. What do you think he ends up with? I agree on the weight issue with McDaniels, and I prefer we develop him as a SF, but we need to find the minutes.

- Lastly, keep in mind that expirings grow in value as we approach the trade deadline. The initial team has already paid two thirds of the contract, and it’s easier for fans/GMs to accept a financial deal for lesser quality players when they’ve lost hope in February, vs the optimism of August. In addition, we can’t see the sellers yet because most haven’t emerged - right now, maybe 26 teams believe they are going to make the playoffs, or at least the play in tournament. I agree with you - Rosas can’t afford to just let the expirings expire.

[LibertyPrime]

Any European PF's hitting the market this off season? Time to finally bring over Henk Norel?

[WindyCityBorn]

I agree with all of you but a player that your looking for doesn't exist for the wolves unless we give up major assets to aquire. We have two players to build around right now so we should build around those players right now.

Unless I'm missing someone the two best players left that we could aquire is Simmons or Lauri. I'm not looking to give the assets needed to obtain Simmons. Lauri is there for minimum assets that could make our team better now so why not do it? Lauri would be our starting 4, he would be better than juancho or vando. But again depends on how much we can get him for.

Wouldn’t be so sure about that minimum assets part. Bulls are not going to do him any favors after he refused go to San Antonio. Certainly won’t be taking any worthless players or bad contracts back.