The too early Suggs vs. Barnes thread

Mikistan · Post #121 » by **Mikistan** » Tue Aug 10, 2021 1:43 pm

Barnes isn't a ball stopper that's hugeeeee

Sandman88 · Post #122 » by **Sandman88** » Tue Aug 10, 2021 1:46 pm

We never needed suggs. Flynn betta

Harold_and_Kumar · Post #123 » by **Harold_and_Kumar** » Tue Aug 10, 2021 1:47 pm

My thoughts are a bit more philosophical than just Barnes vs. Suggs, but it applies pretty well.

I really believe in Bobby and Masai's approach to multi-faceted wings/point forwards with length who play, and want to play good defense. If you believe they also have a strong head on their shoulders to develop, they're naturally going to have a far greater impact on the game than any guard will.

If you're thinking about the top 10 or so players in the NBA, I'd argue only two are guards - Curry and Harden. Curry may be the greatest shooter of all time, and Harden is likely the best ever high usage, efficient scorer of all time. I don't think Suggs has the potential to be a Curry or Harden, and so he's probably going to peak at multiple all-star and never crack a top-10 NBA players list. Which is fine, and will make for a solid pick at 4 or 5.

Alternatively in Barnes you have a big who may be able to dominate a game by breaking down the defense with his passing, offensive rebounding, perimeter defense, shot blocking, and on the fast break - all at 6'9". Essentially, the Raptors are gambling on his ability to make shots at a respectable level. If he can do that you can see him as a better passing Kawhi-lite at his floor. If he's shooting at a Giannis level, even then he's still a productive player that can do multiple things that will contribute to winning, kind of like an Andrei Kirilenko. If he learns to shoot at an above-average level from 3 and people need to guard him from there, he is likely to be a top 5-10 player in the NBA at some point in his career, with everything else he brings.

Personally, I think Suggs is the riskier pick because he has a lower ceiling, and I'd argue a lower floor as well. He's just closer to his prime floor right now than Barnes is. I see Suggs having a Kemba-like career arc where he starts his career more NBA-ready, but plateaus quicker and sustains, whereas I see Barnes taking longer to ascend, but having a much higher peak, much like Giannis or Kawhi.

visionquest · Post #124 » by **visionquest** » Tue Aug 10, 2021 1:49 pm

Suggs has a sweet shot. I thought the pundits said he couldnt shoot.

Sandman88 · Post #125 » by **Sandman88** » Tue Aug 10, 2021 1:49 pm

Team Scottie all day err day

sbsat · Post #126 » by **sbsat** » Tue Aug 10, 2021 1:53 pm

visionquest wrote:Suggs has a sweet shot. I thought the pundits said he couldnt shoot.

its one game.

his %'s in college were not impressive

Raps1103 · Post #127 » by **Raps1103** » Tue Aug 10, 2021 1:53 pm

arbsn wrote:Suggs is an insanely good player. I’m a huge fan of him regardless of us not picking him.

We will almost certainly regret taking him this year. Maybe not in 5 years. I think he was a no brainer pick and Masai and co decided to be cute. Time will tell.

…. Yea, that’s what happened .. it wasn’t cuz they truly believed that Barnes was the better prospect ( has many did, some even thinking Barnes could go top 2) it was BECAUSE THEY WANTED TO BE CUTE :lol:

Psubs · Post #128 » by **Psubs** » Tue Aug 10, 2021 1:59 pm

Sandman88 wrote:We never needed suggs. Flynn betta

This exactly. Trent can put up 40. His defense might be slightly worse than Suggs but was obtained for expiring Powell.

Suggs is likely a healthier Brandon Roy. Barnes ceiling is higher on defense and offense.

Madvillainy2004 · Post #129 » by **Madvillainy2004** » Tue Aug 10, 2021 2:11 pm

kanahda ballz wrote:
Raptors Realtor wrote:Hopefully it's not the Drummond/T-Ross debate all over again... However, my guess is this one will be magnified/debated way more.

Nine years on and even that debate is still going on.

Earlier on in their careers Drummond was way ahead of T Ross.

Now I'd say they are about even....with T Ross possibly passing Drummond (especially if Terrence ends up on a contender soon).

I'd say Drummond has been exposed as a losing player (like he always has been) and Ross while more of a microwave bench scorer can contribute to winning basketball. Drummond may have the all star appearances but he's barely hanging onto to a NBA career atm and has worn out his welcome in 3 franchises in 3 years.

OhCanada1091 · Post #130 » by **OhCanada1091** » Tue Aug 10, 2021 2:11 pm

Harold_and_Kumar wrote:My thoughts are a bit more philosophical than just Barnes vs. Suggs, but it applies pretty well.

I really believe in Bobby and Masai's approach to multi-faceted wings/point forwards with length who play, and want to play good defense. If you believe they also have a strong head on their shoulders to develop, they're naturally going to have a far greater impact on the game than any guard will.

If you're thinking about the top 10 or so players in the NBA, I'd argue only two are guards - Curry and Harden. Curry may be the greatest shooter of all time, and Harden is likely the best ever high usage, efficient scorer of all time. I don't think Suggs has the potential to be a Curry or Harden, and so he's probably going to peak at multiple all-star and never crack a top-10 NBA players list. Which is fine, and will make for a solid pick at 4 or 5.

Alternatively in Barnes you have a big who may be able to dominate a game by breaking down the defense with his passing, offensive rebounding, perimeter defense, shot blocking, and on the fast break - all at 6'9". Essentially, the Raptors are gambling on his ability to make shots at a respectable level. If he can do that you can see him as a better passing Kawhi-lite at his floor. If he's shooting at a Giannis level, even then he's still a productive player that can do multiple things that will contribute to winning, kind of like an Andrei Kirilenko. If he learns to shoot at an above-average level from 3 and people need to guard him from there, he is likely to be a top 5-10 player in the NBA at some point in his career, with everything else he brings.

Personally, I think Suggs is the riskier pick because he has a lower ceiling, and I'd argue a lower floor as well. He's just closer to his prime floor right now than Barnes is. I see Suggs having a Kemba-like career arc where he starts his career more NBA-ready, but plateaus quicker and sustains, whereas I see Barnes taking longer to ascend, but having a much higher peak, much like Giannis or Kawhi.

I'd like to see your top 10.

Parataxis · Post #131 » by **Parataxis** » Tue Aug 10, 2021 2:15 pm

Raptorfan2012 wrote:Are other fan bases like this? Didnt realize we draft base on a couple of summer league games.

Basically, the Raptors Board read some Satre and came away thinking that 'Hell is other people' was a directive, and not a protest.

anotherhomer · Post #132 » by **anotherhomer** » Tue Aug 10, 2021 2:15 pm

visionquest wrote:Suggs has a sweet shot. I thought the pundits said he couldnt shoot.

ppl said his shot can be a bit weird

anotherhomer · Post #133 » by **anotherhomer** » Tue Aug 10, 2021 2:16 pm

remember, barnes is currently projected as a high-end defensive playing making role player

the swing skill (shooting and shot creation in half-court), will take a few years to come out (if so)

Parataxis · Post #134 » by **Parataxis** » Tue Aug 10, 2021 2:17 pm

Raps1103 wrote:
arbsn wrote:Suggs is an insanely good player. I’m a huge fan of him regardless of us not picking him.

We will almost certainly regret taking him this year. Maybe not in 5 years. I think he was a no brainer pick and Masai and co decided to be cute. Time will tell.

…. Yea, that’s what happened .. it wasn’t cuz they truly believed that Barnes was the better prospect ( has many did, some even thinking Barnes could go top 2) it was BECAUSE THEY WANTED TO BE CUTE

This. Like, I kinda understand people here just assuming that they're smarter or a better judge of basketball aptitude than Masai et al.

But I really don't get the people who assume that our front office is making decisions for reasons other than thinking they're the best option. Like, they realise that our FO treats this as a business and not a game, right?

WaltFrazier · Post #135 » by **WaltFrazier** » Tue Aug 10, 2021 2:23 pm

OhCanada1091 wrote:
WaltFrazier wrote:Just think. If we had drafted Suggs, there wouldn't be all this doubt and hand wringing about Barnes. There wouldn't be a season long debate shaping up. We'd be thrilled with our new Kyle replacement, and Barnes would be another 6'8 athlete. Who might not shine on the inferior Magic the way Suggs will.

I'm not too sure Suggs shines in Toronto the way he's going to shine in Orlando. He would join the Raptors as the 4th option at best behind OG, Siakam, Van Vleet. Then you gotta take Trent into consideration and also your pretty much just giving up on Malachi who at this point in his development looks a bit more polished skill wise, while he will never be the physical athlete Suggs is.

Suggs says some odd stuff sometimes too about leadership and being able to lead veterans. Like after this game he was talking about pulling guys aside in Summer League and telling them where they need to be. Bruh, these guys want your shots lol. Thats all great, its what he should be doing, but I don't see why he has to go tell the postgame interviewer how he was pulling guys aside and telling them their role. Just seems like a corny thing to do.

I'd imagine he would get iced out by Freddy and Siakam doing things like that and would not be good for team chemistry. Either that or he would be humbled quickly. He's great for Orlando but I don't think Toronto would have been an excellent fit for him to do his thing.

Suggs seems like a player whose "thing" is to play winning basketball. He would have known his place with the Raptors, and fit in seamlessly. He does not strike me as the type who is looking to be a #1 option. I feel badly for him that he will not have such great teammates in Orlando, because his strength will be being part of a winning team.

Indeed · Post #136 » by **Indeed** » Tue Aug 10, 2021 2:26 pm

Duarte (he seems to be more impressive than Suggs, particularly blocking his man on the drive). I am not seeing how Suggs being so special, the previous Davion Mitchell highlight against Golden States showed he got more ability to get to the rim than Suggs.

Watch on YouTube

WaltFrazier · Post #137 » by **WaltFrazier** » Tue Aug 10, 2021 2:27 pm

Sandman88 wrote:We never needed suggs. Flynn betta

Flynn is a nice developing backup PG. But Suggs is already better, 6'4 vs 6'1, star quality, a starter right away.

onions17 · Post #138 » by **onions17** » Tue Aug 10, 2021 2:28 pm

Raptors Realtor wrote:Hopefully it's not the Drummond/T-Ross debate all over again... However, my guess is this one will be magnified/debated way more.

So looking back now... Ross or Drummond?

simple_jack · Post #139 » by **simple_jack** » Tue Aug 10, 2021 2:31 pm

onions17 wrote:
Raptors Realtor wrote:Hopefully it's not the Drummond/T-Ross debate all over again... However, my guess is this one will be magnified/debated way more.

So looking back now... Ross or Drummond?

Tbh neither.

But if had to make the pick again probably Drummond since he made an all star team and had great rebounding numbers. We could’ve probably developed him into more of a winner. Ross was too streaky.

WaltFrazier · Post #140 » by **WaltFrazier** » Tue Aug 10, 2021 2:32 pm

djsunyc wrote:there's a lot of hypocritical feelings by the pro-suggs crowd.

many of them are willing to trade a known quantity like siakam for draft picks (unknowns) b/c the mystery behind the closed door is more tantalizing than what you have in front of you - an all star quality player who was the #2 usage guy on a chip team.

yet they are very upset that we chose barnes (the unknown w/ crazy potential) instead of suggs b/c suggs to them was the known commodity.

two opposing feelings on display.

I am pro Suggs and I want to keep Siakam. I'm not sure you're talking about an actual trend among posters or you just made it up.

Suggs being more NBA ready, and a distributor, would make our team better, including Pascal, by getting him better shots.

Who ya got?