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2021-22 Season/Offseason Speculation

Moderators: bwgood77, lilfishi22, Qwigglez

Grade the Suns off-season moves so far

A
4
5%
B
40
53%
C
23
30%
D
8
11%
F
1
1%
 
Total votes: 76

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Re: 2021-22 Season/Offseason Speculation 

Post#3321 » by NapoleonII » Wed Aug 11, 2021 4:35 pm

Qwigglez wrote:I could see the Suns maybe going after Siakm at the deadline if he's still with the Raptors, this would work financially...
Suns offer Crowder, Saric, Jalen Smith, Elfrid Payton 3 1st round picks and 2 pick swaps for Pascale Siakam. This would potentially be after the Suns have already negotiated a contract with both Bridges and Ayton and the Suns would hopefully be under the luxury tax for the following season. Could put the Suns as the overall favorites for the title with a solid rotation....

CP3 / Payne
Booker / Shamet
Bridges / Nader
Siakam / Johnson / Frank
Ayton / McGee



Siakim would look really good here. He's great in transition and much better as a 3rd (or 4th) option on this team. Yes, I'm all for this. Shoot our shot and start an arms race in the West.

As a defender, too, he'd be invaluable to throw at Kawhi Leondard/Luka/Lebron.
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Re: 2021-22 Season/Offseason Speculation 

Post#3322 » by RunDogGun » Wed Aug 11, 2021 4:41 pm

bwgood77 wrote:
It's all you are mentioning, even out of nowhere in threads completely off on different topics...like somehow you found a way to make it's way into the summer league thread.

For whatever reason you don't like the guy, don't realize he is a better shooter from 3 on a huge sample size than anyone on our team or realize that shot distribution impacts overall FG%. He may not have hit better from 3 on high volume tough shots, but those players are more valuable than guys who hit a limited # of 3s on minimal shots. They spread the floor and he can get his shots off in multiple ways. You have ignored the multitude of data presented to the contrary of your weak argument.

Just give it a rest please. It is derailing multiple threads and is getting close to trolling at this point.

Mud brought it up, and I agreed. You have also found was to claim Shamet will be great in every thread you can. You also do it in a manner of "if one knows anything about basketball, they would know Shamet is really better". So when you give it a rest, and stop trying to make it sound that you are the real basketball evaluator, and any factual counter to that argument is moot, then I won't have to keep pointing out facts.

My weak argument? My argument is we have better shooters and defenders. And that comment is backed by actual facts. I don't want guys chucking just because they can chuck it. I said this when Johnson had his hurt wrist, and was chucking, taking too many shots. When Crowder did it, I was pissed. I want guys who shoot better to take more shots, and guys who shoot poorly to take less. If Shamet is a defensive liability, and he shoots worse than other players who defend better, how is it not a no brainer to play the guy who shoots better and defends? I mean seriously, if Middleton had Booker on him, and Shamet is guarding Holiday, you honestly don't think Middleton would call for the switch? And with Shamet's % he will have to shoot more just to get a net gain from his defense.
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Re: 2021-22 Season/Offseason Speculation 

Post#3323 » by bwgood77 » Wed Aug 11, 2021 4:43 pm

RunDogGun wrote:It seems like people here think it is easier to just come in in spot minutes and shoot well, than it is to play more minutes, and shoot worse.


It is. This is why no one makes the argument that many of the 48 people who shot better from 3 than Steph Curry this year are better shooters, or the 22 ahead of KD are better than him. If you took a similar argument to the Warriors or Nets board that Frank Ntilikina is a better 3 pt shooter than KD or Curry in just about every thread, you would have every person on those forums debating or ignoring your arguments as well, even though you could continue repeated, and be right, that he shot a better % from 3 last year (ignoring career #s, # of attempts, and anything else).
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Re: 2021-22 Season/Offseason Speculation 

Post#3324 » by RunDogGun » Wed Aug 11, 2021 4:48 pm

NapoleonII wrote:
Qwigglez wrote:I could see the Suns maybe going after Siakm at the deadline if he's still with the Raptors, this would work financially...
Suns offer Crowder, Saric, Jalen Smith, Elfrid Payton 3 1st round picks and 2 pick swaps for Pascale Siakam. This would potentially be after the Suns have already negotiated a contract with both Bridges and Ayton and the Suns would hopefully be under the luxury tax for the following season. Could put the Suns as the overall favorites for the title with a solid rotation....

CP3 / Payne
Booker / Shamet
Bridges / Nader
Siakam / Johnson / Frank
Ayton / McGee



Siakim would look really good here. He's great in transition and much better as a 3rd (or 4th) option on this team. Yes, I'm all for this. Shoot our shot and start an arms race in the West.

As a defender, too, he'd be invaluable to throw at Kawhi Leondard/Luka/Lebron.
It would be an interesting trade. I am not sure when we could give them a first, and with that, I am just a bit concerned with picks included. But if we keep ending high in the standings for many years, I could handle it.
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Re: 2021-22 Season/Offseason Speculation 

Post#3325 » by bwgood77 » Wed Aug 11, 2021 4:51 pm

RunDogGun wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
It's all you are mentioning, even out of nowhere in threads completely off on different topics...like somehow you found a way to make it's way into the summer league thread.

For whatever reason you don't like the guy, don't realize he is a better shooter from 3 on a huge sample size than anyone on our team or realize that shot distribution impacts overall FG%. He may not have hit better from 3 on high volume tough shots, but those players are more valuable than guys who hit a limited # of 3s on minimal shots. They spread the floor and he can get his shots off in multiple ways. You have ignored the multitude of data presented to the contrary of your weak argument.

Just give it a rest please. It is derailing multiple threads and is getting close to trolling at this point.

Mud brought it up, and I agreed. You have also found was to claim Shamet will be great in every thread you can. You also do it in a manner of "if one knows anything about basketball, they would know Shamet is really better". So when you give it a rest, and stop trying to make it sound that you are the real basketball evaluator, and any factual counter to that argument is moot, then I won't have to keep pointing out facts.

My weak argument? My argument is we have better shooters and defenders. And that comment is backed by actual facts. I don't want guys chucking just because they can chuck it. I said this when Johnson had his hurt wrist, and was chucking, taking too many shots. When Crowder did it, I was pissed. I want guys who shoot better to take more shots, and guys who shoot poorly to take less. If Shamet is a defensive liability, and he shoots worse than other players who defend better, how is it not a no brainer to play the guy who shoots better and defends? I mean seriously, if Middleton had Booker on him, and Shamet is guarding Holiday, you honestly don't think Middleton would call for the switch? And with Shamet's % he will have to shoot more just to get a net gain from his defense.


I have only brought it up in response, and many of the posts I have ignored since they are getting old and repetitious, but I decided to try and convince you once again to give it a rest so these threads don't continue being flooded with this stuff. I've mentioned watching basketball twice. It's evident based on posts and what you discuss and having mentioned before you don't watch games.

You never posted in game threads either, for years, which isn't necessarily great evidence you didn't watch, but you did start suddenly being one of the most active game thread posters when we finally made the playoffs, so it was suddenly obvious you did start watching some or at least looking at #s.

Anyway, I pointed this out twice, because a Nets and Clippers posters having watched him in every game point out how great he is at shooting 3s in a variety of ways around the forums. I haven't watched Shamet a ton either but I have read a multitude of opinions from people who do watch him in every game around the forum, how it is amazing how quick he can get off shots and can do it in all sorts of ways. Even Zach Lowe just mentioned it.

On top of that, it is clearly in the rules to not to do what you are doing...and I've already mentioned to stop derailing multiple threads with this.

3. Do Not Derail Discussion

Members who disrupt the normal flow of dialogue or otherwise act in a manner that negatively affects other users’ ability to engage in real-time exchanges may be warned, Suspended or Banned.

Sometimes there are controversial trades, signings, decisions, etc. made by teams. It is ok to state your opinion but please do not keeping beating the drum negatively on that team's forum for weeks, months or years after the fact over something you do not like.


viewtopic.php?f=191&t=1267696
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Re: 2021-22 Season/Offseason Speculation 

Post#3326 » by Saberestar » Wed Aug 11, 2021 4:55 pm

RunDogGun wrote:Again, we can stop this, "if anyone watches basketball" crap. We all watch basketball here, and we all know that guys who can play both sides of the ball and play team basketball are better to play than chuckers, unless those chuckers are already stars. Nader is a good defender, and can handle the switches, and guard guys that are either smaller or bigger than him. He also doesn't take the ball out of our real shooters' hands.

I like Nader as a third string, but Shamet is on a higher tier as a player. They are not even comparable.

Nader is a solid energy guy, but for now he has not shown that he can be more than that.
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Re: 2021-22 Season/Offseason Speculation 

Post#3327 » by RunDogGun » Wed Aug 11, 2021 5:00 pm

bwgood77 wrote:
RunDogGun wrote:It seems like people here think it is easier to just come in in spot minutes and shoot well, than it is to play more minutes, and shoot worse.


It is. This is why no one makes the argument that many of the 48 people who shot better from 3 than Steph Curry this year are better shooters, or the 22 ahead of KD are better than him. If you took a similar argument to the Warriors or Nets board that Frank Ntilikina is a better 3 pt shooter than KD or Curry in just about every thread, you would have every person on those forums debating or ignoring your arguments as well, even though you could continue repeated, and be right, that he shot a better % from 3 last year (ignoring career #s, # of attempts, and anything else).


Ha, so you are saying, no one would dare mention that there are players who shoot better than Curry are actually better shooters than him, even if they actually in fact shoot better? Ok, but I never used guys like Curry, so your constant use of star players as your hyperbolic counter to my factual comment of guys who shoot better than Shamet, seems rather silly.

I am not ignoring anything. Shamet has to chuck to get his points, because he doesn't shoot as well as other guys on our team. This will take shots away from guys, who may shoot less, but are better shooters (because they actually make more shots they take than Shamet). I don't want this. If Booker is shooting 1-7 from three, I don't want him to keep chucking up threes. I want guys to get the best shot, and I want them to move the ball to the hot hand. Now that may be Shamet in some games, because he is streaky, but I am also concerned with his weaker defense.

So the argument becomes will we play guys who (I guess I have to now say "statistically shoots better") and play better defense, or will Monty play guys he likes, regardless of the outcome.
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Re: 2021-22 Season/Offseason Speculation 

Post#3328 » by RunDogGun » Wed Aug 11, 2021 5:11 pm

Saberestar wrote:
RunDogGun wrote:Again, we can stop this, "if anyone watches basketball" crap. We all watch basketball here, and we all know that guys who can play both sides of the ball and play team basketball are better to play than chuckers, unless those chuckers are already stars. Nader is a good defender, and can handle the switches, and guard guys that are either smaller or bigger than him. He also doesn't take the ball out of our real shooters' hands.

I like Nader as a third string, but Shamet is on a higher tier as a player. They are not even comparable.

Nader is a solid energy guy, but for now he has not shown that he can be more than that.

Not even comparable? See its comments like that that fuels the argument. It is comparable, because they have the same role. They would be playing spot minutes off the bench. Nader is by far the better defender, and can guard more positions. That point is huge since we all know teams will screen and get switches favorable to the offensive player. It was the reason we didn't play Galloway, even when he was shooting 45% from three. Heck, we wouldn't even play Galloway more than three minutes in a game when he scored 17 points in the second quarter. :banghead:

I have Nader before Shamet in those deep bench minutes, and I have Payne at sg before I have Shamet there, and Payne shot 44% from three. I want guys who shoot better to shoot more, if their game is mainly shooting threes. I want 30+ minutes for CP3, Booker, and Payne.
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Re: 2021-22 Season/Offseason Speculation 

Post#3329 » by bwoolf2 » Wed Aug 11, 2021 5:16 pm

RunDogGun wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
RunDogGun wrote:It seems like people here think it is easier to just come in in spot minutes and shoot well, than it is to play more minutes, and shoot worse.


It is. This is why no one makes the argument that many of the 48 people who shot better from 3 than Steph Curry this year are better shooters, or the 22 ahead of KD are better than him. If you took a similar argument to the Warriors or Nets board that Frank Ntilikina is a better 3 pt shooter than KD or Curry in just about every thread, you would have every person on those forums debating or ignoring your arguments as well, even though you could continue repeated, and be right, that he shot a better % from 3 last year (ignoring career #s, # of attempts, and anything else).


Ha, so you are saying, no one would dare mention that there are players who shoot better than Curry are actually better shooters than him, even if they actually in fact shoot better? Ok, but I never used guys like Curry, so your constant use of star players as your hyperbolic counter to my factual comment of guys who shoot better than Shamet, seems rather silly.

I am not ignoring anything. Shamet has to chuck to get his points, because he doesn't shoot as well as other guys on our team. This will take shots away from guys, who may shoot less, but are better shooters (because they actually make more shots they take than Shamet). I don't want this. If Booker is shooting 1-7 from three, I don't want him to keep chucking up threes. I want guys to get the best shot, and I want them to move the ball to the hot hand. Now that may be Shamet in some games, because he is streaky, but I am also concerned with his weaker defense.

So the argument becomes will we play guys who (I guess I have to now say "statistically shoots better") and play better defense, or will Monty play guys he likes, regardless of the outcome.


How about we actually watch this team play more than 10 games together before we start making assumptions and predictions about how this is going to work. At this point James Jones and Monty Williams have both earned the benefit of a doubt they took a historically bad team and they went to the finals which I'm 100 percent positive Is more than even the most optimistic expected last year. It may just be that they are pretty good at their jobs and know more than most maybe all of us on this forum. They go back to sucking it up and losing games by halftime then it's time to call them to the woodshed.
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Re: 2021-22 Season/Offseason Speculation 

Post#3330 » by Ghost of Kleine » Wed Aug 11, 2021 5:31 pm

I wouldn't normally consider trading off pieces of our core depth for an attempt at a big name player in a consolidation of assets type of trade, But upon reflection with what we're trying to accomplish on a shortened window with Paul, And with the possibility of Booker and Paul BOTH becoming free agents in 2024, IF you have a legitimate chance to get a Siakim even at the expense of a package of something like: Bridges/ Saric/ Crowder/ Smith/ Multiple firsts, I believe that you have to go for it!!! :nod:

In this premise, You go " All in" now for the next two seasons as a legitimate strong title contender!! And then in 2023/24 IF you get the strong feeling that Book and Siakim won't resign, You do your best to expedite a sign and trade for another premium player or high draft picks and assets to speed up your rebuild around Ayton and whatever tangible depth that you have left.

And if Book or Siakim does resign, You still execute your best sign and trade ( with their desired team) for whichever player of the two decides they're leaving and not resigning! I think in that context, We could remain viable as a playoff team too. But being able to have a starting lineup of:

Paul/ Booker/ Cam/ Siakim/ Ayton could legitimately match up against any contending team in the league. I also think that a frontcourt of Ayton and Siakim would be really strong against the Flakers big frontcourt with Davis, And against the Bucks frontline of Giannis and Lopez! I think that Siakim would matchup really well defensively against Giannis or AD for us too. So I've really warmed up to this idea ( IF POSSIBLE)??? :dontknow:
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Re: 2021-22 Season/Offseason Speculation 

Post#3331 » by RunDogGun » Wed Aug 11, 2021 5:39 pm

bwoolf2 wrote:How about we actually watch this team play more than 10 games together before we start making assumptions and predictions about how this is going to work. At this point James Jones and Monty Williams have both earned the benefit of a doubt they took a historically bad team and they went to the finals which I'm 100 percent positive Is more than even the most optimistic expected last year. It may just be that they are pretty good at their jobs and know more than most maybe all of us on this forum. They go back to sucking it up and losing games by halftime then it's time to call them to the woodshed.

Both Jones and Monty make mistakes too. It happens. Monty not playing Galloway in the second half of that Detroit game after he scored so much in the second quarter, showed me that he doesn't really care about a player who is just a "scorer" off the bench, even when they are hot.

There were many reason we got to the finals, and one of the reasons we lost was defense and Monty not calling time outs and making smart in game adjustments. Losing Willie Green from the coaching staff is a bit concerning on the defensive end. We need to play guys who can play two ways. Now maybe Shamet can be that two way player, but as of this moment, he just isn't. No hate, just facts.
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Re: 2021-22 Season/Offseason Speculation 

Post#3332 » by RunDogGun » Wed Aug 11, 2021 5:46 pm

Ghost of Kleine wrote:I wouldn't normally consider trading off pieces of our core depth for an attempt at a big name player in a consolidation of assets type of trade, But upon reflection with what we're trying to accomplish on a shortened window with Paul, And with the possibility of Booker and Paul BOTH becoming free agents in 2024, IF you have a legitimate chance to get a Siakim even at the expense of a package of something like: Bridges/ Saric/ Crowder/ Smith/ Multiple firsts, I believe that you have to go for it!!! :nod:

In this premise, You go " All in" now for the next two seasons as a legitimate strong title contender!! And then in 2023/24 IF you get the strong feeling that Book and Siakim won't resign, You do your best to expedite a sign and trade for another premium player or high draft picks and assets to speed up your rebuild around Ayton and whatever tangible depth that you have left.

And if Book or Siakim does resign, You still execute your best sign and trade ( with their desired team) for whichever player of the two decides they're leaving and not resigning! I think in that context, We could remain viable as a playoff team too. But being able to have a starting lineup of:

Paul/ Booker/ Cam/ Siakim/ Ayton could legitimately match up against any contending team in the league. I also think that a frontcourt of Ayton and Siakim would be really strong against the Flakers big frontcourt with Davis, And against the Bucks frontline of Giannis and Lopez! I think that Siakim would matchup really well defensively against Giannis or AD for us too. So I've really warmed up to this idea ( IF POSSIBLE)??? :dontknow:

I would hate to lose Bridges right now, even if that meant we got Siakim. I would rather give up a first rounder. I like Johnson a lot, but I just don't think he is the defender Bridges is. And I would hate to lose Johnson, before we really use his talent and IQ, but I would trade him before Bridges. But four guys and multiple draft picks, I just don't know right now.
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Re: 2021-22 Season/Offseason Speculation 

Post#3333 » by Barkley6 » Wed Aug 11, 2021 5:47 pm

Spurs are reported as being interested in Simmons, I wonder if we go in as a 3rd team to facilitate that deal and end up with Young?
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Re: 2021-22 Season/Offseason Speculation 

Post#3334 » by Slim Charless » Wed Aug 11, 2021 5:49 pm

Ghost of Kleine wrote:I wouldn't normally consider trading off pieces of our core depth for an attempt at a big name player in a consolidation of assets type of trade, But upon reflection with what we're trying to accomplish on a shortened window with Paul, And with the possibility of Booker and Paul BOTH becoming free agents in 2024, IF you have a legitimate chance to get a Siakim even at the expense of a package of something like: Bridges/ Saric/ Crowder/ Smith/ Multiple firsts, I believe that you have to go for it!!! :nod:

In this premise, You go " All in" now for the next two seasons as a legitimate strong title contender!! And then in 2023/24 IF you get the strong feeling that Book and Siakim won't resign, You do your best to expedite a sign and trade for another premium player or high draft picks and assets to speed up your rebuild around Ayton and whatever tangible depth that you have left.

And if Book or Siakim does resign, You still execute your best sign and trade ( with their desired team) for whichever player of the two decides they're leaving and not resigning! I think in that context, We could remain viable as a playoff team too. But being able to have a starting lineup of:

Paul/ Booker/ Cam/ Siakim/ Ayton could legitimately match up against any contending team in the league. I also think that a frontcourt of Ayton and Siakim would be really strong against the Flakers big frontcourt with Davis, And against the Bucks frontline of Giannis and Lopez! I think that Siakim would matchup really well defensively against Giannis or AD for us too. So I've really warmed up to this idea ( IF POSSIBLE)??? :dontknow:


I'm still of the opinion that Sarver's cheap azz is trading Bridges before paying him. Unlike BW, I don't think that Mikal is settling for 80M either. That said, I'm not sure that trading him for a 33M/yr Siakam is the answer.

Pascal fits great on paper with us-provided we get the 2019 version of him but I'm not sure that guy still exists. Also, Masai is no fool and won't let his dude go for scraps.
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Re: 2021-22 Season/Offseason Speculation 

Post#3335 » by RunDogGun » Wed Aug 11, 2021 5:52 pm

Barkley6 wrote:Spurs are reported as being interested in Simmons, I wonder if we go in as a 3rd team to facilitate that deal and end up with Young?

That could work. Send Saric back to Philly.
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Re: 2021-22 Season/Offseason Speculation 

Post#3336 » by WeekapaugGroove » Wed Aug 11, 2021 6:06 pm

For anyone who's ever wanted Jason Kidd as a coach check out this thread.

Read on Twitter
?s=19

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Re: 2021-22 Season/Offseason Speculation 

Post#3337 » by RunDogGun » Wed Aug 11, 2021 6:07 pm

I still wish we could have upgraded our starting PF spot. There has to be a guy out there that can score more than 10 pts and grab 4.7 rebounds a game, and hold his own defensively.
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Re: 2021-22 Season/Offseason Speculation 

Post#3338 » by bwoolf2 » Wed Aug 11, 2021 6:10 pm

RunDogGun wrote:
bwoolf2 wrote:How about we actually watch this team play more than 10 games together before we start making assumptions and predictions about how this is going to work. At this point James Jones and Monty Williams have both earned the benefit of a doubt they took a historically bad team and they went to the finals which I'm 100 percent positive Is more than even the most optimistic expected last year. It may just be that they are pretty good at their jobs and know more than most maybe all of us on this forum. They go back to sucking it up and losing games by halftime then it's time to call them to the woodshed.

Both Jones and Monty make mistakes too. It happens. Monty not playing Galloway in the second half of that Detroit game after he scored so much in the second quarter, showed me that he doesn't really care about a player who is just a "scorer" off the bench, even when they are hot.

There were many reason we got to the finals, and one of the reasons we lost was defense and Monty not calling time outs and making smart in game adjustments. Losing Willie Green from the coaching staff is a bit concerning on the defensive end. We need to play guys who can play two ways. Now maybe Shamet can be that two way player, but as of this moment, he just isn't. No hate, just facts.


It ok some people like to complain just to complain and constantly look at the negatives instead of the fact that by any measure we out performed what anyone thought last year. Those are Big Facts

But you do you, I'm sure your basketball acumen is higher than most and you have probably coached or played at a high level.
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Re: 2021-22 Season/Offseason Speculation 

Post#3339 » by Slim Charless » Wed Aug 11, 2021 6:15 pm

WeekapaugGroove wrote:For anyone who's ever wanted Jason Kidd as a coach check out this thread.

Read on Twitter
?s=19

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Should be an interesting test case between him and Diva Doncic next season. Looking forward to it.
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Re: 2021-22 Season/Offseason Speculation 

Post#3340 » by RunDogGun » Wed Aug 11, 2021 6:19 pm

bwoolf2 wrote:
RunDogGun wrote:
bwoolf2 wrote:How about we actually watch this team play more than 10 games together before we start making assumptions and predictions about how this is going to work. At this point James Jones and Monty Williams have both earned the benefit of a doubt they took a historically bad team and they went to the finals which I'm 100 percent positive Is more than even the most optimistic expected last year. It may just be that they are pretty good at their jobs and know more than most maybe all of us on this forum. They go back to sucking it up and losing games by halftime then it's time to call them to the woodshed.

Both Jones and Monty make mistakes too. It happens. Monty not playing Galloway in the second half of that Detroit game after he scored so much in the second quarter, showed me that he doesn't really care about a player who is just a "scorer" off the bench, even when they are hot.

There were many reason we got to the finals, and one of the reasons we lost was defense and Monty not calling time outs and making smart in game adjustments. Losing Willie Green from the coaching staff is a bit concerning on the defensive end. We need to play guys who can play two ways. Now maybe Shamet can be that two way player, but as of this moment, he just isn't. No hate, just facts.


It ok some people like to complain just to complain and constantly look at the negatives instead of the fact that by any measure we out performed what anyone thought last year. Those are Big Facts
Ha, I have tons of positives for this team. I have said multiple times that Monty has created a solid culture and environment. And that was needed more than in game adjustments. But I am not going to ignore facts. He lost games 4 and 5 for us. At this point, we already did what we did, no need to ignore stuff just to praise us for playing like we should.

Side note, were you complaining about what you thought was my complaining? :lol: We have many areas of improvement, and if the team isn't looking at ways to improve on last year, while many western teams did, well that would just be a terrible way to run a team.

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