Trade Ideas (Part III)

[mcfly1204]

Ya I am in the boat of we need to make a move this offseason for a wing that can play. I am warming up on Okoro but if a Sexton/Okoro/Nance package gets me a legit #2 option I am going for it. Tired of waiting till next year

So we trade a legit #2 option + a lot more, while still not having a #1 option, for a legit #2 option but without other pieces. That makes no sense. Sexton is a #2 option a playoff team easily but has been forced into the #1 role because we lack one. Seriously with all the injuries and inner turmoil around Drummond and KPJ let this season play out some before we start making decisions to move our current best player and 2 of our top 4 defenders.

The Cavs started off strong when everyone was healthy, working together, and playing good defense with ball movement. Then tons of injuries and the Allen trade helping Drummond mentally boom destroyed not only the defense the Cavs were playing but also the offensive synergy.

Also there are no #1 or #2 options for trade right now. The best we can do is get a #3 option possibly in someone like MPJ who can't really create for himself nor can he defend all that well, but he can score when setup by someone like Joker and Murray.

I am not paying Sexton max money. He is a Kemba/Monta Ellis type player in my opinion. If he wants to take a lot less money then we can talk.

Hard for me to agree with those comps this soon. Kemba looks like Collin's floor, and if Ellis could shot as efficiently as Sexton, he would have been a really nice player.

[Revenged25]

Ya I am in the boat of we need to make a move this offseason for a wing that can play. I am warming up on Okoro but if a Sexton/Okoro/Nance package gets me a legit #2 option I am going for it. Tired of waiting till next year

So we trade a legit #2 option + a lot more, while still not having a #1 option, for a legit #2 option but without other pieces. That makes no sense. Sexton is a #2 option a playoff team easily but has been forced into the #1 role because we lack one. Seriously with all the injuries and inner turmoil around Drummond and KPJ let this season play out some before we start making decisions to move our current best player and 2 of our top 4 defenders.

The Cavs started off strong when everyone was healthy, working together, and playing good defense with ball movement. Then tons of injuries and the Allen trade helping Drummond mentally boom destroyed not only the defense the Cavs were playing but also the offensive synergy.

Also there are no #1 or #2 options for trade right now. The best we can do is get a #3 option possibly in someone like MPJ who can't really create for himself nor can he defend all that well, but he can score when setup by someone like Joker and Murray.

I am not paying Sexton max money. He is a Kemba/Monta Ellis type player in my opinion. If he wants to take a lot less money then we can talk.

I think you're off there as even Kemba and Monta aren't quite similar outside of being score first guards. Monta wasn't efficient except for one year, the rest of the time he was well under league average at the position for TS%. Kemba has at least been hovering around the league average of TS%, basically just hugging the line the whole time starting in his 5th year, prior to that he was under it, which is why his first extension was only 4/48 mil, he wasn't efficient even putting up 17/5. Following that contract he was around league average efficiency for the position which is why he got the max from the Celtics in the S&T while putting up 22-25/5-6.

Sexton hasn't been as bad efficiency wise than either of those 2 year and has only consistently improved having his TS% got from .520 to .560 to .573 with the positional average being around .555 IIRC. I think that's the one thing people are forgetting when comparing him to the average score only guards that ended up not being worth big contracts, they weren't efficient but he is. He's not just an empty high volume stat guy on a bad team, he's efficient while doing it. That is a pretty big deal, especially when you consider that he does most of his damage within 16 feet and he had among the worst floor spacing teammates in the NBA which allowed teams to try and shut him down or make him less efficient but they couldn't.

Obviously we need to wait till this season plays out, he's not a no-brainer like Luka, Trae, or Ayton. Even SGA has some question marks but being an efficient 2-way player with prototypical height makes it an easy decision to just get it out of the way now. Sexton... well he's an efficient scorer that's constantly been improving in other areas as well but still below average in some key ones like finding the assist when the paint collapses, improved off-ball defense (his on-ball isn't bad), and getting better at fighting through screens though the added strength for the 3rd season in a row should help him in that. Right now, I agree you don't pay him the max, probably 5/125 considering what other worse and less efficient score only players got this off-season, but the Cavs don't have to extend him yet and can see how this season plays out first. Either he'll play himself into a bigger contract the Cavs will happily pay him or he won't and they can match the market value contract that he gets as a RFA.

[Revenged25]

So we trade a legit #2 option + a lot more, while still not having a #1 option, for a legit #2 option but without other pieces. That makes no sense. Sexton is a #2 option a playoff team easily but has been forced into the #1 role because we lack one. Seriously with all the injuries and inner turmoil around Drummond and KPJ let this season play out some before we start making decisions to move our current best player and 2 of our top 4 defenders.

The Cavs started off strong when everyone was healthy, working together, and playing good defense with ball movement. Then tons of injuries and the Allen trade helping Drummond mentally boom destroyed not only the defense the Cavs were playing but also the offensive synergy.

Also there are no #1 or #2 options for trade right now. The best we can do is get a #3 option possibly in someone like MPJ who can't really create for himself nor can he defend all that well, but he can score when setup by someone like Joker and Murray.

I am not paying Sexton max money. He is a Kemba/Monta Ellis type player in my opinion. If he wants to take a lot less money then we can talk.

Hard for me to agree with those comps this soon. Kemba looks like Collin's floor, and if Ellis could shot as efficiently as Sexton, he would have been a really nice player.

Even then Kemba was a nice player after his rookie contract and deserved the contract he got from Boston, but injuries that hadn't been an issue in the past started to creep up.

[Niko23]

I like Sexton, and you guys are not wrong. But it comes back to dollars for me and Sexton is not worth max money. You have to trade him this season to potentially get max value since he has a year left on his deal.

Does he become an RFA next year? Or what does that look like next offseason?

[Revenged25]

I like Sexton, and you guys are not wrong. But it comes back to dollars for me and Sexton is not worth max money. You have to trade him this season to potentially get max value since he has a year left on his deal.

Does he become an RFA next year? Or what does that look like next offseason?

He becomes a RFA. Also right now he's not worth the max, even though other efficient 24+ ppg scorers get paid the max all the time, even if that's all they do, but I agree that he's probably only worth 5/125 right now as he needs to show improved passing and defense to be worth a max. So we don't have to trade him, we can let him play out the final year of his rookie contract and see if he shows that he's worth a max or let the market decide his value and at worst can always do a S&T to get some value back for not matching.

[KuruptedCav]

Ya I am in the boat of we need to make a move this offseason for a wing that can play. I am warming up on Okoro but if a Sexton/Okoro/Nance package gets me a legit #2 option I am going for it. Tired of waiting till next year

So we trade a legit #2 option + a lot more, while still not having a #1 option, for a legit #2 option but without other pieces. That makes no sense. Sexton is a #2 option a playoff team easily but has been forced into the #1 role because we lack one. Seriously with all the injuries and inner turmoil around Drummond and KPJ let this season play out some before we start making decisions to move our current best player and 2 of our top 4 defenders.

The Cavs started off strong when everyone was healthy, working together, and playing good defense with ball movement. Then tons of injuries and the Allen trade helping Drummond mentally boom destroyed not only the defense the Cavs were playing but also the offensive synergy.

Also there are no #1 or #2 options for trade right now. The best we can do is get a #3 option possibly in someone like MPJ who can't really create for himself nor can he defend all that well, but he can score when setup by someone like Joker and Murray.

I am not paying Sexton max money. He is a Kemba/Monta Ellis type player in my opinion. If he wants to take a lot less money then we can talk.

What are you comfortable paying him?


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[JonFromVA]

What would you guys be wanting for Nance?

1st Round Pick and/or Young Asset?

I think the time has passed for a draft pick based offer. I imagine the Cavs would like a young wing who's ready to play and has some length and some upside ... and is significantly better or has more upside than what they might be able to get with a MLE siging (aka Josh Hart).

[toooskies]

The question is, again, who's offering Sexton a big contract that the Cavs need to compete with? While projected cap can change I think there's only a couple teams that could feasibly offer him a max right now, and I'm not sure they're going to be ready to compete. I don't see Detroit or OKC handing Sexton a max contract. Teams like the Knicks and Heat have already taken themselves out of consideration for signing him outright.

We saw the market for Schroder as a guy who overvalues his worth completely disintegrate. We saw the market for Collins didn't materialize outside of Atlanta. If Sexton seems like the same player this year as last year, I don't see anybody else offering max money or even much over $20m or so.

[mg]

The question is, again, who's offering Sexton a big contract that the Cavs need to compete with? While projected cap can change I think there's only a couple teams that could feasibly offer him a max right now, and I'm not sure they're going to be ready to compete. I don't see Detroit or OKC handing Sexton a max contract. Teams like the Knicks and Heat have already taken themselves out of consideration for signing him outright.

We saw the market for Schroder as a guy who overvalues his worth completely disintegrate. We saw the market for Collins didn't materialize outside of Atlanta. If Sexton seems like the same player this year as last year, I don't see anybody else offering max money or even much over $20m or so.

Exactly. All this boogie man talk but no team is paying Sexton on a Trae or SGA type max deal. Let's trade him for a future Knicks highly protected draft pick because we are scared. ATL is probably happy they didn't do that with Collins considering the deal they just signed w/ him. Now if some team steps forward and makes a legit offer for a big wing then sure the Cavs should listen. Otherwise they can probably get the same type of parts and pieces offer the Pels just got for Ball next offseason in a s&t.

[Revenged25]

The question is, again, who's offering Sexton a big contract that the Cavs need to compete with? While projected cap can change I think there's only a couple teams that could feasibly offer him a max right now, and I'm not sure they're going to be ready to compete. I don't see Detroit or OKC handing Sexton a max contract. Teams like the Knicks and Heat have already taken themselves out of consideration for signing him outright.

We saw the market for Schroder as a guy who overvalues his worth completely disintegrate. We saw the market for Collins didn't materialize outside of Atlanta. If Sexton seems like the same player this year as last year, I don't see anybody else offering max money or even much over $20m or so.

Exactly. All this boogie man talk but no team is paying Sexton on a Trae or SGA type max deal. Let's trade him for a future Knicks highly protected draft pick because we are scared. ATL is probably happy they didn't do that with Collins considering the deal they just signed w/ him. Now if some team steps forward and makes a legit offer for a big wing then sure the Cavs should listen. Otherwise they can probably get the same type of parts and pieces offer the Pels just got for Ball next offseason in a s&t.

Heck if he got Ball's contact we'd just keep him and at worse move him to 6th man. Like either Sexton is going to show he deserves a max contract and we'll be happy offering it, or he's going to get a less than max contract that might make us groan a little but willing to match and/or do a S&T.

[KuruptedCav]

So we trade a legit #2 option + a lot more, while still not having a #1 option, for a legit #2 option but without other pieces. That makes no sense. Sexton is a #2 option a playoff team easily but has been forced into the #1 role because we lack one. Seriously with all the injuries and inner turmoil around Drummond and KPJ let this season play out some before we start making decisions to move our current best player and 2 of our top 4 defenders.

The Cavs started off strong when everyone was healthy, working together, and playing good defense with ball movement. Then tons of injuries and the Allen trade helping Drummond mentally boom destroyed not only the defense the Cavs were playing but also the offensive synergy.

Also there are no #1 or #2 options for trade right now. The best we can do is get a #3 option possibly in someone like MPJ who can't really create for himself nor can he defend all that well, but he can score when setup by someone like Joker and Murray.

I am not paying Sexton max money. He is a Kemba/Monta Ellis type player in my opinion. If he wants to take a lot less money then we can talk.

What are you comfortable paying him?


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And to answer my own question. I don’t like the idea of paying him the max because the accelerating salary tied to cap growth impinges the cap.

4yr $100million: $28,$26,$24,$22 declining value (similar to the Heild contract) is in line with the type of contract Jaylen Brown got.


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[LivingLegend]

I am not paying Sexton max money. He is a Kemba/Monta Ellis type player in my opinion. If he wants to take a lot less money then we can talk.

What are you comfortable paying him?


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And to answer my own question. I don’t like the idea of paying him the max because the accelerating salary tied to cap growth impinges the cap.

4yr $100million: $28,$26,$24,$22 declining value (similar to the Heild contract) is in line with the type of contract Jaylen Brown got.


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meeeeh Im thinking more in the 75-80M range. Thats between 'solid starter' and 'elite bench player' money which is exactly what Sexton is. I just really dont want his contract to hinder us in 2-3 years IF he doesnt turn into anything more than a energy 6th man. I want it to be a movable contract thanks to my Kevin Love ptsd.

[Stillwater]

I like Sexton, and you guys are not wrong. But it comes back to dollars for me and Sexton is not worth max money. You have to trade him this season to potentially get max value since he has a year left on his deal.

Does he become an RFA next year? Or what does that look like next offseason?

It will not be about what he IS worth this season and instead what they think he WILL BE worth. They basically have to pay him next summer what the market bears and hope that it is less than a max while also hoping he is that guy that deserved a max but is playing for less during that 2nd contract for years to come...good luck with that the paying less but getting more part.
The odds are actually really high some team without a fixation on a pass first guard that can't score at a high level running their team will offer Sexton more to play the 1 for them. Altman is not going to offer Sexton a max to continue to be the score or go home guard he has been and will have to move on from DG imo moving Sexton back on point to justify paying him.
Most Cavs fans see the most likely outcome DG stays and Sexton is gone, I am of the camp that thinks Sexton leaves regardless and they eventually have to find a DG replacement as well because he won't be the guy worth that max either.

[LivingLegend]

I like Sexton, and you guys are not wrong. But it comes back to dollars for me and Sexton is not worth max money. You have to trade him this season to potentially get max value since he has a year left on his deal.

Does he become an RFA next year? Or what does that look like next offseason?

It will not be about what he IS worth this season and instead what they think he WILL BE worth. They basically have to pay him next summer what the market bears and hope that it is less than a max while also hoping he is that guy that deserved a max but is playing for less during that 2nd contract for years to come...good luck with that the paying less but getting more part.
The odds are actually really high some team without a fixation on a pass first guard that can't score at a high level running their team will offer Sexton more to play the 1 for them. Altman is not going to offer Sexton a max to continue to be the score or go home guard he has been and will have to move on from DG imo moving Sexton back on point to justify paying him.
Most Cavs fans see the most likely outcome DG stays and Sexton is gone, I am of the camp that thinks Sexton leaves regardless and they eventually have to find a DG replacement as well because he won't be the guy worth that max either.

There is some nerd site out there that projects a players $$ value by taking into account similar players value, production, ect.

It said that Sexton's production for the Cavs was worth 19.3M per year which comes out to be a contract in that $75-80M range over 4 years. I know people love to say Sexton is a Max player, but Im not paying a 19M player the 27M per year MAX because we are the desperate Cavs. If he walks, he walks.

I dont mind at all keeping Sexton around, it just comes down to the money. If he is willing to take a fair deal that he is actually worth, then welcome aboard--if his agent wants to get greedy and push close to the Max because he knows the Cavs are desperate, then bye.

After the KLove situation Im done supporting paying guys over value just because we are the 'woe is me Cavs' and having it bite us in the *** if they dont live up to it.

End of the day--Sexton at $80M, cool. Sexton at $110M+, GTFO. Thats where Im at with it.

[mg]

Lonzo Ball just signed for 4/$85 mil w/ the Bulls.
Norm Powell signed for 5/$90 mil with the Blazers.
This type of money sounds right for Sexton. I might even offer him more money at less years 3/$70 mil. It might have to go to RFA like Collins and Ball just did.

[jbk1234]

So we trade a legit #2 option + a lot more, while still not having a #1 option, for a legit #2 option but without other pieces. That makes no sense. Sexton is a #2 option a playoff team easily but has been forced into the #1 role because we lack one. Seriously with all the injuries and inner turmoil around Drummond and KPJ let this season play out some before we start making decisions to move our current best player and 2 of our top 4 defenders.

The Cavs started off strong when everyone was healthy, working together, and playing good defense with ball movement. Then tons of injuries and the Allen trade helping Drummond mentally boom destroyed not only the defense the Cavs were playing but also the offensive synergy.

Also there are no #1 or #2 options for trade right now. The best we can do is get a #3 option possibly in someone like MPJ who can't really create for himself nor can he defend all that well, but he can score when setup by someone like Joker and Murray.

I am not paying Sexton max money. He is a Kemba/Monta Ellis type player in my opinion. If he wants to take a lot less money then we can talk.

What are you comfortable paying him?


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$15M per tops. We can't start him. Very few teams in the NBA can start him. He's not a net positive player as a starter, and that's been on one of the worst teams in the NBA lacking a decent backup SG.

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[Stillwater]

I like Sexton, and you guys are not wrong. But it comes back to dollars for me and Sexton is not worth max money. You have to trade him this season to potentially get max value since he has a year left on his deal.

Does he become an RFA next year? Or what does that look like next offseason?

It will not be about what he IS worth this season and instead what they think he WILL BE worth. They basically have to pay him next summer what the market bears and hope that it is less than a max while also hoping he is that guy that deserved a max but is playing for less during that 2nd contract for years to come...good luck with that the paying less but getting more part.
The odds are actually really high some team without a fixation on a pass first guard that can't score at a high level running their team will offer Sexton more to play the 1 for them. Altman is not going to offer Sexton a max to continue to be the score or go home guard he has been and will have to move on from DG imo moving Sexton back on point to justify paying him.
Most Cavs fans see the most likely outcome DG stays and Sexton is gone, I am of the camp that thinks Sexton leaves regardless and they eventually have to find a DG replacement as well because he won't be the guy worth that max either.

There is some nerd site out there that projects a players $$ value by taking into account similar players value, production, ect.

It said that Sexton's production for the Cavs was worth 19.3M per year which comes out to be a contract in that $75-80M range over 4 years. I know people love to say Sexton is a Max player, but Im not paying a 19M player the 27M per year MAX because we are the desperate Cavs. If he walks, he walks.

I dont mind at all keeping Sexton around, it just comes down to the money. If he is willing to take a fair deal that he is actually worth, then welcome aboard--if his agent wants to get greedy and push close to the Max because he knows the Cavs are desperate, then bye.

After the KLove situation Im done supporting paying guys over value just because we are the 'woe is me Cavs' and having it bite us in the *** if they dont live up to it.

End of the day--Sexton at $80M, cool. Sexton at $110M+, GTFO. Thats where Im at with it.

1 thing for sure is you probably wont like the end game

[JonFromVA]

I am not paying Sexton max money. He is a Kemba/Monta Ellis type player in my opinion. If he wants to take a lot less money then we can talk.

What are you comfortable paying him?


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$15M per tops. We can't start him. Very few teams in the NBA can start him. He's not a net positive player as a starter, and that's been on one of the worst teams in the NBA lacking a decent backup SG.

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Collin's clutch time stats are excellent... his plus-minus stats are a mess. I'd lock him up at $20M, but he won't bite so short of a trade we're going to get a longer look to make up our minds.

I still don't expect miracles with a rookie PF and our dubious floor spacing, but it's been a long time since we've had a real PG on the roster. Rubio will be interesting.

[jbk1234]

What are you comfortable paying him?


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$15M per tops. We can't start him. Very few teams in the NBA can start him. He's not a net positive player as a starter, and that's been on one of the worst teams in the NBA lacking a decent backup SG.

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Collin's clutch time stats are excellent... his plus-minus stats are a mess. I'd lock him up at $20M, but he won't bite so short of a trade we're going to get a longer look to make up our minds.

I still don't expect miracles with a rookie PF and our dubious floor spacing, but it's been a long time since we've had a real PG on the roster. Rubio will be interesting.

I'm going to need to see that data over the three year period he's played for us that supports that assertion versus a single season's worth of data that is heavily skewed by two games where Kyrie was guarding him and he shot well outside his mean in terms of three point percentage.

Or, just toss out his best two and worst two *cluthch* games and let me know what that looks like.

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[Stillwater]

^Won't matter Sexton will be leaving imo He is not going to play second fiddle if the first fiddle is not the same level scorer.