Trade Ideas (Part III)

[jbk1234]

^Won't matter Sexton will be leaving imo He is not going to play second fiddle if the first fiddle is not the same level scorer.

What imaginary team is this? Because there are 30 actual ones and he plays on one of them already

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[Wisedude]

I cannot find a team that will have the cap space next summer to offer Sexton $20m or more per season.
So many teams used up their cap space for the next two years and won't have it next summer.

[LivingLegend]

I cannot find a team that will have the cap space next summer to offer Sexton $20m or more per season.
So many teams used up their cap space for the next two years and won't have it next summer.

He's likely going to be sticking around for a second contract, the question is what the money will be and when will it happen.

Every team out there has the same questions about him the Cavs do and the Cavs not jumping to lock him up and offer a contract is probably a red flag for other teams.

Best to wait it out and maybe get him to accept a lower deal once he sees the money is not out there for him.

[JonFromVA]

$15M per tops. We can't start him. Very few teams in the NBA can start him. He's not a net positive player as a starter, and that's been on one of the worst teams in the NBA lacking a decent backup SG.

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Collin's clutch time stats are excellent... his plus-minus stats are a mess. I'd lock him up at $20M, but he won't bite so short of a trade we're going to get a longer look to make up our minds.

I still don't expect miracles with a rookie PF and our dubious floor spacing, but it's been a long time since we've had a real PG on the roster. Rubio will be interesting.

I'm going to need to see that data over the three year period he's played for us that supports that assertion versus a single season's worth of data that is heavily skewed by two games where Kyrie was guarding him and he shot well outside his mean in terms of three point percentage.

Or, just toss out his best two and worst two *cluthch* games and let me know what that looks like.

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Everybody else in the league gets to pick on weak defenders ... heck Collin is penalized be cause he doesn't face the Cavs, but by all means good luck with that project.

[JonFromVA]

I cannot find a team that will have the cap space next summer to offer Sexton $20m or more per season.
So many teams used up their cap space for the next two years and won't have it next summer.

There are always ways to clear cap space, but doing so for a RFA is risky. Some team may very well do so for Beal after some collusion.

fwiw, Sportrac says the Pistons and Knicks would have space to offer 20M+ and 15 teams could clear space by declining options and such.

[jbk1234]

Collin's clutch time stats are excellent... his plus-minus stats are a mess. I'd lock him up at $20M, but he won't bite so short of a trade we're going to get a longer look to make up our minds.

I still don't expect miracles with a rookie PF and our dubious floor spacing, but it's been a long time since we've had a real PG on the roster. Rubio will be interesting.

I'm going to need to see that data over the three year period he's played for us that supports that assertion versus a single season's worth of data that is heavily skewed by two games where Kyrie was guarding him and he shot well outside his mean in terms of three point percentage.

Or, just toss out his best two and worst two *cluthch* games and let me know what that looks like.

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Everybody else in the league gets to pick on weak defenders ... heck Collin is penalized be cause he doesn't face the Cavs, but by all means good luck with that project.

I think using a couple atypical shooting performances to justify a clutch label and then paying him anywhere near what he's seeking is a really, really bad idea. Terrance Ross had a 50 point game on his rookie contract and not a single one since in almost a decade. If Sexton could shoot that well from distance consistently there'd be no debate. But he can't, so instead he regularly looks to drive into the teeth of the defense in the final couple minutes and the results are what they are.

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[toooskies]

I cannot find a team that will have the cap space next summer to offer Sexton $20m or more per season.
So many teams used up their cap space for the next two years and won't have it next summer.

There are always ways to clear cap space, but doing so for a RFA is risky. Some team may very well do so for Beal after some collusion.

fwiw, Sportrac says the Pistons and Knicks would have space to offer 20M+ and 15 teams could clear space by declining options and such.

Detroit is possible but unlikely, they will be more than a scorer away from being good. The Knicks haven’t formally signed their FA acquisitions yet.

[KuruptedCav]

I am not paying Sexton max money. He is a Kemba/Monta Ellis type player in my opinion. If he wants to take a lot less money then we can talk.

What are you comfortable paying him?


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$15M per tops. We can't start him. Very few teams in the NBA can start him. He's not a net positive player as a starter, and that's been on one of the worst teams in the NBA lacking a decent backup SG.

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This is where we’ll disagree. I don’t see why he cannot be a starter in the league.

Playing on one of the worst teams in the league, he had an 18PER (75th overall and 23rd among guards) contributed 3.5WS, and 1.0 VORP, and the Cavs have improved their W% each year.

I’m very interested in understanding how Collin Sexton is worth 75% of Fred Vanvleet or even Terry Rozier who are both 6’1” shooting guards making $20 million per year on inferior efficiency…


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[JonFromVA]

I'm going to need to see that data over the three year period he's played for us that supports that assertion versus a single season's worth of data that is heavily skewed by two games where Kyrie was guarding him and he shot well outside his mean in terms of three point percentage.

Or, just toss out his best two and worst two *cluthch* games and let me know what that looks like.

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Everybody else in the league gets to pick on weak defenders ... heck Collin is penalized be cause he doesn't face the Cavs, but by all means good luck with that project.

I think using a couple atypical shooting performances to justify a clutch label and then paying him anywhere near what he's seeking is a really, really bad idea. Terrance Ross had a 50 point game on his rookie contract and not a single one since in almost a decade. If Sexton could shoot that well from distance consistently there'd be no debate. But he can't, so instead he regularly looks to drive into the teeth of the defense in the final couple minutes and the results are what they are.

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Whoa ... a $20M signing will help us re-sign our other picks. He's not TRoss. He can shoot if given enough space and he drives in to the teeth of the defense because we can't spread the floor and he doesn't always find the shooters we have. If he only had to beat his man and a late helper, he'd be extremely hard to stop.

He's still young and improving and at $20M he should also be tradeable, so even if we can't use him we should be able to flip him a lot easier. He wouldn't be a one year rental to the team acquiring him.

I also expect the Cavs have already put a deal in the $20M area on the table. They may be refusing to max him, but I doubt they're playing "hardball".

[Revenged25]

Everybody else in the league gets to pick on weak defenders ... heck Collin is penalized be cause he doesn't face the Cavs, but by all means good luck with that project.

I think using a couple atypical shooting performances to justify a clutch label and then paying him anywhere near what he's seeking is a really, really bad idea. Terrance Ross had a 50 point game on his rookie contract and not a single one since in almost a decade. If Sexton could shoot that well from distance consistently there'd be no debate. But he can't, so instead he regularly looks to drive into the teeth of the defense in the final couple minutes and the results are what they are.

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Whoa ... a $20M signing will help us re-sign our other picks. He's not TRoss. He can shoot if given enough space and he drives in to the teeth of the defense because we can't spread the floor and he doesn't always find the shooters we have. If he only had to beat his man and a late helper, he'd be extremely hard to stop.

He's still young and improving and at $20M he should also be tradeable, so even if we can't use him we should be able to flip him a lot easier. He wouldn't be a one year rental to the team acquiring him.

I also expect the Cavs have already put a deal in the $20M area on the table. They may be refusing to max him, but I doubt they're playing "hardball".

$20M is the low-end of what you would expect him to get in FA based on the contracts that were given out already, I think $25M is probably what he would be offered if he was a FA this year, and maybe one ambitious team offering him a max, but that would've probably only been the Knicks since he fits the Thibs mold really damn well.

[Revenged25]

I like Sexton, and you guys are not wrong. But it comes back to dollars for me and Sexton is not worth max money. You have to trade him this season to potentially get max value since he has a year left on his deal.

Does he become an RFA next year? Or what does that look like next offseason?

It will not be about what he IS worth this season and instead what they think he WILL BE worth. They basically have to pay him next summer what the market bears and hope that it is less than a max while also hoping he is that guy that deserved a max but is playing for less during that 2nd contract for years to come...good luck with that the paying less but getting more part.
The odds are actually really high some team without a fixation on a pass first guard that can't score at a high level running their team will offer Sexton more to play the 1 for them. Altman is not going to offer Sexton a max to continue to be the score or go home guard he has been and will have to move on from DG imo moving Sexton back on point to justify paying him.
Most Cavs fans see the most likely outcome DG stays and Sexton is gone, I am of the camp that thinks Sexton leaves regardless and they eventually have to find a DG replacement as well because he won't be the guy worth that max either.

There is some nerd site out there that projects a players $$ value by taking into account similar players value, production, ect.

It said that Sexton's production for the Cavs was worth 19.3M per year which comes out to be a contract in that $75-80M range over 4 years. I know people love to say Sexton is a Max player, but Im not paying a 19M player the 27M per year MAX because we are the desperate Cavs. If he walks, he walks.

I dont mind at all keeping Sexton around, it just comes down to the money. If he is willing to take a fair deal that he is actually worth, then welcome aboard--if his agent wants to get greedy and push close to the Max because he knows the Cavs are desperate, then bye.

After the KLove situation Im done supporting paying guys over value just because we are the 'woe is me Cavs' and having it bite us in the *** if they dont live up to it.

End of the day--Sexton at $80M, cool. Sexton at $110M+, GTFO. Thats where Im at with it.

You remember that site?

[jbk1234]

Everybody else in the league gets to pick on weak defenders ... heck Collin is penalized be cause he doesn't face the Cavs, but by all means good luck with that project.

I think using a couple atypical shooting performances to justify a clutch label and then paying him anywhere near what he's seeking is a really, really bad idea. Terrance Ross had a 50 point game on his rookie contract and not a single one since in almost a decade. If Sexton could shoot that well from distance consistently there'd be no debate. But he can't, so instead he regularly looks to drive into the teeth of the defense in the final couple minutes and the results are what they are.

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Whoa ... a $20M signing will help us re-sign our other picks. He's not TRoss. He can shoot if given enough space and he drives in to the teeth of the defense because we can't spread the floor and he doesn't always find the shooters we have. If he only had to beat his man and a late helper, he'd be extremely hard to stop.

He's still young and improving and at $20M he should also be tradeable, so even if we can't use him we should be able to flip him a lot easier. He wouldn't be a one year rental to the team acquiring him.

I also expect the Cavs have already put a deal in the $20M area on the table. They may be refusing to max him, but I doubt they're playing "hardball".

I'm not debating what the Cavs will do, only what they should do. I would not extend him at all, because one you do, he's untradable this season to any team outside of maybe the Thunder. If you decide you want to move him midseason, the BYC makes it impossible.

I don't get the idea behind gauging his trade market, finding it wanting, and then paying him big money anyway. I really don't.

I don't think spreading the floor for Sexton will be as easy as people pretend. He has weaknesses that need to be compensated for by other types of personnel, and they're not easy to come by.

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[Niko23]

I can live with Sexton at 4 years and 80/85 million. I expect his numbers to go down a decent bit this year with Mobley, Okoro, etc.

[toooskies]

I think using a couple atypical shooting performances to justify a clutch label and then paying him anywhere near what he's seeking is a really, really bad idea. Terrance Ross had a 50 point game on his rookie contract and not a single one since in almost a decade. If Sexton could shoot that well from distance consistently there'd be no debate. But he can't, so instead he regularly looks to drive into the teeth of the defense in the final couple minutes and the results are what they are.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

Whoa ... a $20M signing will help us re-sign our other picks. He's not TRoss. He can shoot if given enough space and he drives in to the teeth of the defense because we can't spread the floor and he doesn't always find the shooters we have. If he only had to beat his man and a late helper, he'd be extremely hard to stop.

He's still young and improving and at $20M he should also be tradeable, so even if we can't use him we should be able to flip him a lot easier. He wouldn't be a one year rental to the team acquiring him.

I also expect the Cavs have already put a deal in the $20M area on the table. They may be refusing to max him, but I doubt they're playing "hardball".

I'm not debating what the Cavs will do, only what they should do. I would not extend him at all, because one you do, he's untradable this season to any team outside of maybe the Thunder. If you decide you want to move him midseason, the BYC makes it impossible.

I don't get the idea behind gauging his trade market, finding it wanting, and then paying him big money anyway. I really don't.

I don't think spreading the floor for Sexton will be as easy as people pretend. He has weaknesses that need to be compensated for by other types of personnel, and they're not easy to come by.

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Moving Sexton only ever made sense if the Cavs were going to take a guard or wing at #3. The timing of him being shopped and the rumors starting matches that scenario. He was not "very available" because if he was, he'd have been moved regardless and the Cavs would've tried to find a better wing somewhere.

[LivingLegend]

It will not be about what he IS worth this season and instead what they think he WILL BE worth. They basically have to pay him next summer what the market bears and hope that it is less than a max while also hoping he is that guy that deserved a max but is playing for less during that 2nd contract for years to come...good luck with that the paying less but getting more part.
The odds are actually really high some team without a fixation on a pass first guard that can't score at a high level running their team will offer Sexton more to play the 1 for them. Altman is not going to offer Sexton a max to continue to be the score or go home guard he has been and will have to move on from DG imo moving Sexton back on point to justify paying him.
Most Cavs fans see the most likely outcome DG stays and Sexton is gone, I am of the camp that thinks Sexton leaves regardless and they eventually have to find a DG replacement as well because he won't be the guy worth that max either.

There is some nerd site out there that projects a players $$ value by taking into account similar players value, production, ect.

It said that Sexton's production for the Cavs was worth 19.3M per year which comes out to be a contract in that $75-80M range over 4 years. I know people love to say Sexton is a Max player, but Im not paying a 19M player the 27M per year MAX because we are the desperate Cavs. If he walks, he walks.

I dont mind at all keeping Sexton around, it just comes down to the money. If he is willing to take a fair deal that he is actually worth, then welcome aboard--if his agent wants to get greedy and push close to the Max because he knows the Cavs are desperate, then bye.

After the KLove situation Im done supporting paying guys over value just because we are the 'woe is me Cavs' and having it bite us in the *** if they dont live up to it.

End of the day--Sexton at $80M, cool. Sexton at $110M+, GTFO. Thats where Im at with it.

You remember that site?

I did some digging, here is it--I was way off on the number that I tried to remember. It turns out it was 9.5M not 19M. All I remebered was a 9 lol Its a Athletic article that has the metrics they use to rank players and assign they monetary value.

Sexton, in this article if you cant read it is listed in Tier5 at #87 out of 125 players. He is between Buddy Heild and Diangelo Russell. His projected value based on production is 9.5M per year with a estimated 3.5 Wins.

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[Revenged25]

So it's not actually based on anything other than how The Athletic ranked people. I think that's less reliable IMO.

[LivingLegend]

So it's not actually based on anything other than how The Athletic ranked people. I think that's less reliable IMO.

Can you read it? Its all based on metrics they track and list as BOARD$, EPM Wins, OEPM, ODPM, RAPM, ORAPM and DRAPM.

There are actual metrics tracked behind the rankings its not just some random writers personal list.

Just a few:

RAPM- Regularized Adjusted plus/minus. Attempts to isolate that players impact.
EPM- Estimated Plus/Minus. Is +/- points/100

[Revenged25]

So it's not actually based on anything other than how The Athletic ranked people. I think that's less reliable IMO.

Can you read it? Its all based on metrics they track and list as BOARD$, EPM Wins, OEPM, ODPM, RAPM, ORAPM and DRAPM.

There are actual metrics tracked behind the rankings its not just some random writers personal list.

It's behind a paywall, I'm not gonna pay for it.

[Stillwater]

^Won't matter Sexton will be leaving imo He is not going to play second fiddle if the first fiddle is not the same level scorer.

What imaginary team is this? Because there are 30 actual ones and he plays on one of them already

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lol who is the best scorer on the Cavs? its your most favorite topic of the summer...the latest reports from the same clowns that said he was on the block are now saying he is getting extension proving they have no credibility at all.
Sexton will gladly stay on a max extension but I am guess you wont when that happens smh
If he came out and had a Dame type season would you change your tune or would you just keep on sticking with the dying takes

[LivingLegend]

^Won't matter Sexton will be leaving imo He is not going to play second fiddle if the first fiddle is not the same level scorer.

What imaginary team is this? Because there are 30 actual ones and he plays on one of them already

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lol who is the best scorer on the Cavs? its your most favorite topic of the summer...the latest reports from the same clowns that said he was on the block are now saying he is getting extension proving they have no credibility at all.
Sexton will gladly stay on a max extension but I am guess you wont when that happens smh
If he came out and had a Dame type season would you change your tune or would you just keep on sticking with the dying takes

Or it means that they tried to trade him and there was no takers for a fair offer so now they are resigning him.