Summer League Thread Part 4: Aug 14th Charlotte @7pm TSN2

[Raps in 4]

Personally I think Barnes has been as expected this Summer League in terms of his strengths and weaknesses. He has should some flashes that make you say wow once he develops more we're going to have something.

Also, this is Summer League, it is not very structured in terms of plays ran and they only practice for 4 days before playing. Along with the fact that most players in Summer League are playing for themselves to get a camp invite or an NBA contract.

In terms of the top 5 the only one that has had a consistent performance has been Jalen Green, but he'd be ahead of the curve as he's played in an NBA style offense in the G League to prepare him for this. The other players came out of the college system, which is different from the NBA. Remember Bobby said that they're looking to build through youth for the next 2-5 year potentially and based on how they project Barnes to grow he's going to be a significant piece to the puzzle for the franchise.

Let's give him time to grow into his game and body. Even OG when he was drafted, everyone knew his defense was way ahead of his offense. No one thought he'd be a 20ppg type scoring threat. Most thought if his game did develop offensively that he'd be Aminu level offensively in terms of production at his best. That was because he didn't have a great handle or dribble drive game to speak off. 12-15ppg type player that always gave you good to great defense.

Look at this past year and you see the growth. As a 20 year old rookie OG averaged:

5.9 points, 2.5 rebounds, 0.7 assists, 0.7 steals, 0.2 blocks, shooting 47.1% from the field and 37.1% from 3

4 years later OG is averaging:

15.9 points, 5.5 rebounds, 2.2 assists, 1.5 steals, 0.7 blocks, shooting 48% from the field and 39.8% from 3

If you told me or anyone on this forum that OG would be putting up these stats in year 4 and still has room to grow I'd think you're crazy and I love OG. If this tells you anything it's that Summer League isn't the end all and be all for a prospect.

Oh no, OG is done growing. 24 years old is the cut off for players.

Lol I saw that post and had to give my head a shake. NBA players are always adding to their game even past their primes to extend their careers. So to give a cap on a players ability to show no improvement after 4 years in the NBA is asinine. There are many examples of players improving well past that arbitrary age cap.

Nowhere did I say he wouldn't improve past that age. Just that it would be the likely end of significant improvements. It's exceedingly rare that a player makes huge leaps in their game in their late 20s. You get a very good sense of what a player will be like the rest of their career by age 25.

[Tor_Raps]

Considering it was a bad game. 5 blocks, 3 assists and a low usage. It wasn't AS bad as people are making it out to be.

People want an alpha from the 4th pick, not a guy who likes to blend in. His game currently screams role player but that doesn't mean he can't take it to the next level. You watch Green/Suggs/Cade, you cant say that about them even when they're struggling.

Why would you want an 18 year old to be an alpha? You want someone that is coachable that follows instructions and that is hard working. Also, alpha is way out dated, it usually means an ****. Build like San Antonio: get great players, build a system, coach draft picks, convince players that their career can grow by joining the Raptors.

Again, Barnes is the practically the same age as Green/Suggs/Cade. It's their games that separate them from being considered main offensive options, not their ages. You can be coachable and still be considered an alpha offensively.

And what do you mean build like the Spurs? Are you talking about when they had the best PF and top 10 player of all time or when it was when they had Kawhi/Aldridge? Or are you talking about now when they suck because they have no legit go to player.

[DreamTeam09]

A lot of weird takes I've seen on this board recently

One that precious is too small for the 5. Precious is a big boy, strong like ox, he'll be able to handle most C's. Even the Embiid types, he'll bang with him

Players do improve after 4yrs, heck you can improve your game at any point in your career by adding, refining, or changing your game. Even a small improvement can lead to big statistical gains

Barnes isn't athletic?? 36inch vert at 6'8 220+ is athletic

Banton is good. I love having tall players now able to play all positions.

[mtcan]

So based on what's happened so far...looks like the line-up will be:
FVV/Flynn/Dragic/Banton
GTJ/Wainwright/Johnson (2 way)
OG/Barnes/Yuta/Dekker/Champagne (2 way)
Pascal/Boucher
Birch/Precious/Gillespie

I hope there is enough shooting...

I wouldn't be surprised Dragic is the starting SG.
VanVleet/Flynn/Banton
Dragic/Trent/Wainwright
OG/Barnes/Watanabe
Siakam/Boucher/Dekker
Birch/Achuiwa/Gillespie

I think you would want to keep Dragic injury free pending any trades and we know he has had injuries the last few seasons.

I don't see him as a major rotation piece. He might see minutes as a backup and yet I think the coaching staff/management want to go ahead and have 5 guys with long arms out there because...positionless basketball.

[Raps in 4]

Players do improve after 4yrs, heck you can improve your game at any point in your career by adding, refining, or changing your game. Even a small improvement can lead to big statistical gains

5 years, not 4. And again, I never said players don't improve beyond that age, just that it's rare that players add major pieces to their games after that point. Most players are who are they are by age 25. There are exceptions, but they are rare. Players typically just refine their skills in their late 20s.

[Pointgod]

Oladipo?

Oladipo hit his ceiling in his 5th season, which is what OG is entering.

Kyle Lowry? Steve Nash? Chauncey Billups?

All examples of changes of scenery and more/consistent minutes. Kyle has been consistent since he got to Toronto but the 2 years he was a 20 point scorer were probably the exceptions.

[DG88]

Oh no, OG is done growing. 24 years old is the cut off for players.

Lol I saw that post and had to give my head a shake. NBA players are always adding to their game even past their primes to extend their careers. So to give a cap on a players ability to show no improvement after 4 years in the NBA is asinine. There are many examples of players improving well past that arbitrary age cap.

Nowhere did I say he wouldn't improve past that age. Just that it would be the likely end of significant improvements. It's exceedingly rare that a player makes huge leaps in their game in their late 20s. You get a very good sense of what a player will be like the rest of their career by age 25.

I'm not sure anyone here is expecting a player to just make a massive jump. Each year a players skills build upon what they learned the year prior. Some times things click later as a player matures. Look at Kawhi, yes he was a superstar player but he wasn't the best playmaker even with us in 2019 and he was 27 going 28 years old at that time. The following year his playmaking made a huge leap from all those years prior. Serge Ibaka was never a great playmaker in the short roll. But after 3 years with us, past that age cap he grew in that area and became a threat as a passer off the short roll. Now you had a big who could finish inside, shoot outside and pass. Before he was mainly a pick and pop big man. So I still think you're selling NBA players short on how much they can develop. It does come down to the player to put in the work and mature as a ball player.

[execoftheyear]

honestly, Draymond is the best case scenario for Barnes THIS season. Hopefully our development team can improve his scoring ability over the years but I'm not expecting much this season. I could see him being a really good glue guy but not a go to guy.

Wainright looks really impressive. I have a feeling he'll make the team. That combination of size and skill is pretty rare. He moves really fluid for his size and looks to have a decent touch on his shot. Built like Joey Graham but moves a lot better.

Fully developed 3 titles Draymond? C'mon Scottie is a kid and Draymond a man. Let the development happen and let's not make false comparison conclusive statements. Barnes is part project and everyone knows that.

obviously not fully developed Draymond and I'm referring to his role on the team. People who are disappointed with his play so far are mainly expecting him to be some go to scorer like Kawhi. I expect him to be like a Draymond for us...not that he'll be at that level straight out the gates.

[HolyMage110]

David Johnson has no motor

[MixxSRC]

Oladipo hit his ceiling in his 5th season, which is what OG is entering.

Kyle Lowry? Steve Nash? Chauncey Billups?

All examples of changes of scenery and more/consistent minutes. Kyle has been consistent since he got to Toronto but the 2 years he was a 20 point scorer were probably the exceptions.

Paul Milsap, Gordon Hayward?

[Duffman100]

Kyle Lowry? Steve Nash? Chauncey Billups?

All examples of changes of scenery and more/consistent minutes. Kyle has been consistent since he got to Toronto but the 2 years he was a 20 point scorer were probably the exceptions.

Paul Milsap, Gordon Hayward?

Jimmy Butler, Doug Christie, Ben Wallace,

[ItsDanger]

Most important stat last night: Houston 33.3 FG%. You don't need great offense when you play defense like that. You can tell a lot of posters just look at PPG. Now Barnes can't run? WTF.

[Pointgod]

All examples of changes of scenery and more/consistent minutes. Kyle has been consistent since he got to Toronto but the 2 years he was a 20 point scorer were probably the exceptions.

Paul Milsap, Gordon Hayward?

Jimmy Butler, Doug Christie, Ben Wallace,

Jimmy Butler was an allstar in his 4th season at the age of 25. Ben Wallace is the perfect example of a change of scenery/ system player. Gordon Hayward was 20,5,4 by his 5th season in the league at 24 years old. Paul Milsap was 17 and 8 in his 5th season at 25. And he put up the same numbers in Atlanta and didn’t become an allstar until a change of scenery.

You guys are just throwing out names without even doing the research first. And the fact that you think you’ve found a handful of exceptions out of the 100’s of players that have cycled through the NBA doesn’t really disprove the original point.

[aligator]

So based on what's happened so far...looks like the line-up will be:
FVV/Flynn/Dragic/Banton
GTJ/Wainwright/Johnson (2 way)
OG/Barnes/Yuta/Dekker/Champagne (2 way)
Pascal/Boucher
Birch/Precious/Gillespie

I hope there is enough shooting...

I wouldn't be surprised Dragic is the starting SG.
VanVleet/Flynn/Banton
Dragic/Trent/Wainwright
OG/Barnes/Watanabe
Siakam/Boucher/Dekker
Birch/Achuiwa/Gillespie

I think you would want to keep Dragic injury free pending any trades and we know he has had injuries the last few seasons.

Dragic will never play for the Raps and I see this as a positive, not a negative.

I don't see him as a major rotation piece. He might see minutes as a backup and yet I think the coaching staff/management want to go ahead and have 5 guys with long arms out there because...positionless basketball.

[Reeko]

Comparing Cade and his FG to Barnes makes little sense. Again - it’s the skills.

We all know Cade can score, Suggs can score, they have shown the shooting, the finishing.

Barnes with the ball in his hands literally has no scoring ability, has running looks clunky, and he isn’t a primary ball handler.

All we know about Cade is that he can shoot the 3. He has not shown that he has the ability to create space and finish at the NBA level.

When I see Barnes run he looks very smooth, almost like he's gliding. I don't know why some are trying to make it seem as though he runs like rookie OG Anunoby.

[Duffman100]

Paul Milsap, Gordon Hayward?

Jimmy Butler, Doug Christie, Ben Wallace,

Jimmy Butler was an allstar in his 4th season at the age of 25. Ben Wallace is the perfect example of a change of scenery/ system player. Gordon Hayward was 20,5,4 by his 5th season in the league at 24 years old. Paul Milsap was 17 and 8 in his 5th season at 25. And he put up the same numbers in Atlanta and didn’t become an allstar until a change of scenery.

You guys are just throwing out names without even doing the research first. And the fact that you think you’ve found a handful of exceptions out of the 100’s of players that have cycled through the NBA doesn’t really disprove the original point.

Jimmy Butler was also 25 years old. OG just turned 24.

The fact that you guys are arbitrarily decided a player's growth will be stunted based on X number years in the league without providing any sort of actually statistical analysis is what's wrong here. You are making the statement. You might be right, but back it up with something?

[MixxSRC]

Paul Milsap, Gordon Hayward?

Jimmy Butler, Doug Christie, Ben Wallace,

Jimmy Butler was an allstar in his 4th season at the age of 25. Ben Wallace is the perfect example of a change of scenery/ system player. Gordon Hayward was 20,5,4 by his 5th season in the league at 24 years old. Paul Milsap was 17 and 8 in his 5th season at 25. And he put up the same numbers in Atlanta and didn’t become an allstar until a change of scenery.

You guys are just throwing out names without even doing the research first. And the fact that you think you’ve found a handful of exceptions out of the 100’s of players that have cycled through the NBA doesn’t really disprove the original point.

you said you know who the player is by 3rd-4th year. Now you moving the goal post with "change of scenery" excuse. The fact is players improve and develop past 4th year in the league.

[Danny1616]

Jimmy Butler, Doug Christie, Ben Wallace,

Jimmy Butler was an allstar in his 4th season at the age of 25. Ben Wallace is the perfect example of a change of scenery/ system player. Gordon Hayward was 20,5,4 by his 5th season in the league at 24 years old. Paul Milsap was 17 and 8 in his 5th season at 25. And he put up the same numbers in Atlanta and didn’t become an allstar until a change of scenery.

You guys are just throwing out names without even doing the research first. And the fact that you think you’ve found a handful of exceptions out of the 100’s of players that have cycled through the NBA doesn’t really disprove the original point.

Jimmy Butler was also 25 years old. OG just turned 24.

The fact that you guys are arbitrarily decided a player's growth will be stunted based on X number years in the league without providing any sort of actually statistical analysis is what's wrong here. You are making the statement. You might be right, but back it up with something?

Exactly this.

[lobosloboslobos]

I am surprised to say that OG and pascal may actually have a higher overall ceiling than scottie

Pascal has already hit his ceiling and this season will probably mark OG's ceiling. They are 27 and 24.

your knowledge of the future is extraordinary.
how do you do it?
time travel? drug-induced trance? superpowers? messages from god?

[Danny1616]

Oladipo hit his ceiling in his 5th season, which is what OG is entering.

Kyle Lowry? Steve Nash? Chauncey Billups?

All examples of changes of scenery and more/consistent minutes. Kyle has been consistent since he got to Toronto but the 2 years he was a 20 point scorer were probably the exceptions.

Kawhi - made his first all-star game in 2016 when he was 25 years old.

He was always great defensively, but only unlocked his offensive potential around 2016, and became the offensive machine he is in 2017.

Nash - became an all-star for the first time at 28 years old in his 6th season in the league.

Scottie Barnes just turned 20.