The too early Suggs vs. Barnes thread

[Danny1616]

You literally just contradicted your own argument.

The league is going smaller and towards shooting, yet the Raptors took a player who can't shoot and whose main selling point is his size/length.

If two players have great work ethic, but one player is already much more skilled and developed who would you take?

Isn't the league going towards position less basketball?

It's valuable to have mobile, quick, athletic big with handles and court vision.

The last champions were led by Giannis, Lebron, Kawhi and KD. Notice something in common?

Not saying Barnes is going to become that but I disagree with your premise.

Are we going to ignore that all those teams had allstar guard play? And it’s convenient to leave out Steph when he’s the reason KD won those championships considering he had been to 2 straight finals before he joined the team and lead them to another finals with KD injured.

Did not ignore that at all. I simply was disagreeing with Pooh's premise, especially in the playoffs.

I agree that you can't ignore all-star guard play.

[Danny1616]

i think barnes has a much higher chance to improve from a bad shooter to a decent one than Suggs improving from a decent shooter to an elite Dame level shooter. And Suggs could improve his handles but i doubt he will ever been an elite, creative break your man down type of player. Its exponentially harder to improve your skills such as shooting or creativity off the dribble to elite levels. Either you have it at a young age or you dont. And due to Suggs lack of other elite skills and size, he will need to be a Dame level shooter atleast to ever have a chance of being a superstar. Since Barnes has much better size, his margin for error is much larger for him to have a superstar level ceiling.

Sent from my SM-A530W using RealGM Forums mobile app

Everything you're arguing applies to Barnes tenfold.

Barnes doesn't have any elite skills. The only thing elite about him is his combination of size/length/athleticism. That's a great base, but what reason do you have for Barnes not only matching Suggs skill level, but surpassing it?

Being bigger simply isn't a good enough reason to believe he will do that. It's not like Suggs is unmotivated and lazy.

Exactly. I caught flack in the summer league thread that you can get a sense of most players by the time they’re 25 and or their 4th year in the league in reference to OG. But these guys are assuming that a 20 year old Suggs can’t or won’t improve.

Who is assuming Suggs won't improve?

The arguments people are making are about ceiling, not improvement and work-ethic.

[Johnny Bball]

You literally just contradicted your own argument.

The league is going smaller and towards shooting, yet the Raptors took a player who can't shoot and whose main selling point is his size/length.

If two players have great work ethic, but one player is already much more skilled and developed who would you take?

Yes, the league is moving small to 6 foot forwards and 6-9 is too big. Smaller to shoot? Wtf? No, smaller to defend well because they're faster. That's just so bad.

Seems that you were wrong again guessing who they would pick. And the reasons for it.

[Pointgod]

i think barnes has a much higher chance to improve from a bad shooter to a decent one than Suggs improving from a decent shooter to an elite Dame level shooter. And Suggs could improve his handles but i doubt he will ever been an elite, creative break your man down type of player. Its exponentially harder to improve your skills such as shooting or creativity off the dribble to elite levels. Either you have it at a young age or you dont. And due to Suggs lack of other elite skills and size, he will need to be a Dame level shooter atleast to ever have a chance of being a superstar. Since Barnes has much better size, his margin for error is much larger for him to have a superstar level ceiling.

Sent from my SM-A530W using RealGM Forums mobile app

Everything you're arguing applies to Barnes tenfold.

Barnes doesn't have any elite skills. The only thing elite about him is his combination of size/length/athleticism. That's a great base, but what reason do you have for Barnes not only matching Suggs skill level, but surpassing it?

Being bigger simply isn't a good enough reason to believe he will do that. It's not like Suggs is unmotivated and lazy.

Barnes is raw, no doubt about that, but to counter your points:

1) He has very good handles for someone 6'9.
2) He has very good vision for someone 6'9.
3) He has elite athleticism and quickness for someone 6'9.
4) He is a versatile defender and high motor player that can guard 1-5.
5) He just turned 20.

Why not wait 3 years and then reevaluate instead of making blanket predictions? Are you then assuming Barnes is unmotivated and lazy?

Suggs has:
1) Elite size for his position
2) Already the makings of an all NBA defender
3) Can already run a NBA offence
4) Elite passer and playmaker
5) Above average athleticism for his position
6) Been the best player on the best team in college
7) Only 20

Honestly I’m not predicting either of them meets or surpasses expectations but I question what makes Barnes a better prospect in 3-4 years from now considering he has a lot more boxes to check to make it to his comparison of Draymond Green than it is for Suggs to become a Brandon Roy/John Wall comparison.

[Pointgod]

Everything you're arguing applies to Barnes tenfold.

Barnes doesn't have any elite skills. The only thing elite about him is his combination of size/length/athleticism. That's a great base, but what reason do you have for Barnes not only matching Suggs skill level, but surpassing it?

Being bigger simply isn't a good enough reason to believe he will do that. It's not like Suggs is unmotivated and lazy.

Exactly. I caught flack in the summer league thread that you can get a sense of most players by the time they’re 25 and or their 4th year in the league in reference to OG. But these guys are assuming that a 20 year old Suggs can’t or won’t improve.

Who is assuming Suggs won't improve?

The arguments people are making are about ceiling, not improvement and work-ethic.

Yeah and I haven’t seen a strong argument about why Suggs actually has a lower ceiling. Other than lazy player comparisons I’m still trying to see where Barnes’ ceiling is higher than a 3rd option on a championship team. He has elite length/size and is an above average passer for his size but there hasn’t been any analysis that points to him developing into a lead franchise player.

[Backcountry]

I wish we could have both. But here's what's going to happen in my fantasyland: in about 3 years, when Orlando crashes and burns and goes back into rebuild mode again because they've "wrecked" Suggs among others, Toronto is going to pick him up for a couple of promising scrubs and a future 2nd rounder. Suggs will rehabilitate his reputation a la Lowry and boom! Away they go with Barnes, Suggs and whomever is still around plus future picks. Who knows, they may also pick up Mobely from Cleveland under the same circumstances.

Predictions are great! It's like being a weatherman...

[Danny1616]

Exactly. I caught flack in the summer league thread that you can get a sense of most players by the time they’re 25 and or their 4th year in the league in reference to OG. But these guys are assuming that a 20 year old Suggs can’t or won’t improve.

Who is assuming Suggs won't improve?

The arguments people are making are about ceiling, not improvement and work-ethic.

Yeah and I haven’t seen a strong argument about why Suggs actually has a lower ceiling. Other than lazy player comparisons I’m still trying to see where Barnes’ ceiling is higher than a 3rd option on a championship team. He has elite length/size and is an above average passer for his size but there hasn’t been any analysis that points to him developing into a lead franchise player.

Sure, you may be right. But by that same token, who is to say that Suggs turns into prime Kidd with shooting or if he's simply another Bledsoe.

He has very good handles for his size, he has very good vision for his size, he's 6'9 with a 7'3 wingspan, he is extremely quick and agile for his size and length, and is supposed to be an elite defender that can guard multiple positions and takes pride at that end. At the combine he was top 3 in vertical leap and in the shuttle run. His motor, energy, toughness, intangibles are also supposed to be very good. He also supposedly has an excellent attitude and is a culture changer.

So at 20 years old it's very hard to tell.

[dc]

Why do people keep calling Barnes 6'9" when he measured out at 6'7"?

Maybe he grows a little, but right now the guy is 6'7". Just a pet peeve is all.

[Pointgod]

This post of mine after 1 game is truer than ever. This thread is 21 pages long. If the picks had been reversed and we took Suggs as expected, this thread wouldn't exist and Barnes would barely be mentioned here.

I'd go further than that, if Barnes had the exact same performances he has had with the Raptors and was on a team like OKC or the Magic he would be called a bust and people would be using that as proof that "tanking doesn't work."

Except that's not what would happen. A lot of people wanted Mobley, but knew he would be a work in progress too. Are people calling him a bust because of a few SL games in which he's averaging 13 PTS on 33/20/50 shooting? Nope.

Sent from my Pixel 4 using RealGM mobile app

No one is calling Barnes a bust after 3 summer league games. I’m sure there are Cavs fans that are pointing out that Mobley hasn’t looked great in summer league and he’s going to be a project. I honestly don’t see why people get worked up over honest assessments. If Barnes looked great then he’d rightly get some praise. The best rookies in summer league so far have been Jalen Green, then in no particular order:
Cade Cunningham
Suggs
Duarte
Cooper
Trey Murphy
Jalen Johnson
Sengun
Cam Thomas
Bouknight

Then you have guys like Barnes, Josh Christopher, Davion Mitchell and a host of other dudes that you can include Mobley in there. But there’s no way Mobley had played like a top tier player which I’m sure disappoints some fans

[Clay Davis]

Give me the rich man's Shane Battier over John Wall any day.

Sent from my moto g(8) power lite using RealGM mobile app

[Pointgod]

Who is assuming Suggs won't improve?

The arguments people are making are about ceiling, not improvement and work-ethic.

Yeah and I haven’t seen a strong argument about why Suggs actually has a lower ceiling. Other than lazy player comparisons I’m still trying to see where Barnes’ ceiling is higher than a 3rd option on a championship team. He has elite length/size and is an above average passer for his size but there hasn’t been any analysis that points to him developing into a lead franchise player.

Sure, you may be right. But by that same token, who is to say that Suggs turns into prime Kidd with shooting or if he's simply another Bledsoe.

He has very good handles for his size, he has very good vision for his size, he's 6'9 with a 7'3 wingspan, he is extremely quick and agile for his size and length, and is supposed to be an elite defender that can guard multiple positions and takes pride at that end. At the combine he was top 3 in vertical leap and in the shuttle run. His motor, energy, toughness, intangibles are also supposed to be very good. He also supposedly has an excellent attitude and is a culture changer.

So at 20 years old it's very hard to tell.

Suggs is already a better shooter than Bledsoe ever was in the league. Compared to Kidd’s second season in college they average the same points per 40 minutes, but Suggs shot a higher FG% and much better FT% while Kidd was a slightly better 3 point shooter on half the attempts as Sugg. He’s no where near the passer Kidd is or averaged the same amount of steals and I can’t imagine he’d get there. What I’m saying is that there are less check marks that Suggs needs to tick off to get to a higher ceiling than Barnes. A lot of what applies to Barnes about attitude, culture, leadership applies to Suggs as well. He could very well be the better player in the short term and 3-4 years looking at work ethic and the areas he can improve on.

[planetmars]

I'm personally not totally over the draft.. but at the end of the day what kind of control does a fan really have? I mean it's not like I could sway Masai or Bobby in their draft war room lol. And I'm mostly an idiot. What do I really know about each player? I watched a few NCAA games and highlight reels. My opinion does not matter here at all.

Now that Barnes is a Raptor I'll be watching and rooting for him more than I would Suggs. If he succeeds it just helps my team. If he fails then I can complain but it's better to be happy than angry. So let's hope we knocked one out again this draft. At worst he'll still have some value as an asset we could use in a trade. We'll likely tank again and will pick another guy nobody wanted

I likely won't watch many Suggs games, as the only time I will probably see the Magic play is when they play the Raptors. After that I might catch a playoff game if they get there, but likely won't (unless again they happen to play the Raptors). Comparing stats will be tough since they play different position and will likely have different roles. How do you compare a guy like Paul or Lillard to Giannis or Kawhi? It's just so hard.

The main reason why I liked Suggs was because I knew Lowry was leaving.. and we don't really have a backup option. Flynn is okay but he's likely not going to be any more than a good backup guard.. and Fred isn't a true PG and will never be as good as Lowry (although he'll try). Suggs had that potential from the little I saw of his.

I mean once we move Dragic or he leaves next season, our options at PG will likely be dire.

But on the other hand, I know how difficult it is to find an elite wing player. Raptors fans have been dying to get one since we passed on Iggy.. we finally got our guy in OG and he has been great. And then we won a chip with Kawhi. So if Barnes develops into a stud.. it's the best position to be a stud in. We'd still need that PG though.

Wish we could have both Barnes and Suggs. Hopefully the Magic **** up Suggs' development and he becomes tradeable or available as an RFA. Maybe Suggs and Barnes are besties and would love to play with each other. It is a player's league now after all.

[Danny1616]

Yeah and I haven’t seen a strong argument about why Suggs actually has a lower ceiling. Other than lazy player comparisons I’m still trying to see where Barnes’ ceiling is higher than a 3rd option on a championship team. He has elite length/size and is an above average passer for his size but there hasn’t been any analysis that points to him developing into a lead franchise player.

Sure, you may be right. But by that same token, who is to say that Suggs turns into prime Kidd with shooting or if he's simply another Bledsoe.

He has very good handles for his size, he has very good vision for his size, he's 6'9 with a 7'3 wingspan, he is extremely quick and agile for his size and length, and is supposed to be an elite defender that can guard multiple positions and takes pride at that end. At the combine he was top 3 in vertical leap and in the shuttle run. His motor, energy, toughness, intangibles are also supposed to be very good. He also supposedly has an excellent attitude and is a culture changer.

So at 20 years old it's very hard to tell.

Suggs is already a better shooter than Bledsoe ever was in the league. Compared to Kidd’s second season in college they average the same points per 40 minutes, but Suggs shot a higher FG% and much better FT% while Kidd was a slightly better 3 point shooter on half the attempts as Sugg. He’s no where near the passer Kidd is or averaged the same amount of steals and I can’t imagine he’d get there. What I’m saying is that there are less check marks that Suggs needs to tick off to get to a higher ceiling than Barnes. A lot of what applies to Barnes about attitude, culture, leadership applies to Suggs as well. He could very well be the better player in the short term and 3-4 years looking at work ethic and the areas he can improve on.

Suggs was a 33.7% 3 point shooter in College.

Bledsoe was a 38.3% 3 point shooter in College. He actually attempted nearly 3.5 threes a game which was the same as Suggs. So he shot a better percentage with the same volume during an era where 3 point shooting wasn't as valued.

Not sure how you can say Suggs is already a better shooter than Bledsoe was ever in the league when Suggs hasn't played an NBA game and Bledsoe was clearly the better 3 point shooter in College.

In addition, Bledsoe 3 fg was 40% in 2013, 36% in 2014, 37% in 2016, 34% in 2017, 35% in 2018, 34% in 2019 and 34% in 2020. Those are very respectful 3 point shooting numbers.

I actually do think Suggs will be a very good shooter and I think he will be better than Bledsoe, but to say that he is already a better shooter than Bledsoe ever was is simply incorrect. You are simply making the same hypothetical assumptions for Suggs being great as you are for Barnes not being great. You are crafting a narrative in your head of what you think will happen and trying to fit everything in that narrative. You may be right but we have no idea right now.

[brownbobcat]

Why do people keep calling Barnes 6'9" when he measured out at 6'7"?

Maybe he grows a little, but right now the guy is 6'7". Just a pet peeve is all.

6'7" without shoes. Almost all player heights generally referenced on ESPN and such are with shoes.

[theonlyeastcoastrapsfan]

Everything you're arguing applies to Barnes tenfold.

Barnes doesn't have any elite skills. The only thing elite about him is his combination of size/length/athleticism. That's a great base, but what reason do you have for Barnes not only matching Suggs skill level, but surpassing it?

Being bigger simply isn't a good enough reason to believe he will do that. It's not like Suggs is unmotivated and lazy.

Barnes is raw, no doubt about that, but to counter your points:

1) He has very good handles for someone 6'9.
2) He has very good vision for someone 6'9.
3) He has elite athleticism and quickness for someone 6'9.
4) He is a versatile defender and high motor player that can guard 1-5.
5) He just turned 20.

Why not wait 3 years and then reevaluate instead of making blanket predictions? Are you then assuming Barnes is unmotivated and lazy?

Suggs has:
1) Elite size for his position
2) Already the makings of an all NBA defender
3) Can already run a NBA offence
4) Elite passer and playmaker
5) Above average athleticism for his position
6) Been the best player on the best team in college
7) Only 20

Honestly I’m not predicting either of them meets or surpasses expectations but I question what makes Barnes a better prospect in 3-4 years from now considering he has a lot more boxes to check to make it to his comparison of Draymond Green than it is for Suggs to become a Brandon Roy/John Wall comparison.

It’s comical how much Suggs reputation on this board changed as soon as Masai picked Scottie. If anyone had come to the board and said Masai was gonna pick Barnes, they would have been called a troll, and that was before many realized how far he had to go offensively.

[Danny1616]

Barnes is raw, no doubt about that, but to counter your points:

1) He has very good handles for someone 6'9.
2) He has very good vision for someone 6'9.
3) He has elite athleticism and quickness for someone 6'9.
4) He is a versatile defender and high motor player that can guard 1-5.
5) He just turned 20.

Why not wait 3 years and then reevaluate instead of making blanket predictions? Are you then assuming Barnes is unmotivated and lazy?

Suggs has:
1) Elite size for his position
2) Already the makings of an all NBA defender
3) Can already run a NBA offence
4) Elite passer and playmaker
5) Above average athleticism for his position
6) Been the best player on the best team in college
7) Only 20

Honestly I’m not predicting either of them meets or surpasses expectations but I question what makes Barnes a better prospect in 3-4 years from now considering he has a lot more boxes to check to make it to his comparison of Draymond Green than it is for Suggs to become a Brandon Roy/John Wall comparison.

It’s comical how much Suggs reputation on this board changed as soon as Masai picked Scottie. If anyone had come to the board and said Masai was gonna pick Barnes, they would have been called a troll, and that was before many realized how far he had to go offensively.

Where did I say Suggs won't be a very good player? I think Suggs will be a very good player and has a shot at being an all-star.

But to be fair, many on this board didn't watch most College games last season and simply base their opinions on YouTube highlight reels. 90% of this board had no idea what Barnes brought to the table before the draft and that's just a fact. The sexy names before the draft were Cade, Suggs, Green and Mobley.

And now people are making way too many extrapolations and hypothetical assumptions. Just like Point earlier said that Bledsoe was never a better shooter than Suggs, when in fact Bledsoe was easily the better 3 point shooter in College and Suggs hasn't played an NBA game yet.

[Los_29]

Yeah and I haven’t seen a strong argument about why Suggs actually has a lower ceiling. Other than lazy player comparisons I’m still trying to see where Barnes’ ceiling is higher than a 3rd option on a championship team. He has elite length/size and is an above average passer for his size but there hasn’t been any analysis that points to him developing into a lead franchise player.

Sure, you may be right. But by that same token, who is to say that Suggs turns into prime Kidd with shooting or if he's simply another Bledsoe.

He has very good handles for his size, he has very good vision for his size, he's 6'9 with a 7'3 wingspan, he is extremely quick and agile for his size and length, and is supposed to be an elite defender that can guard multiple positions and takes pride at that end. At the combine he was top 3 in vertical leap and in the shuttle run. His motor, energy, toughness, intangibles are also supposed to be very good. He also supposedly has an excellent attitude and is a culture changer.

So at 20 years old it's very hard to tell.

Suggs is already a better shooter than Bledsoe ever was in the league. Compared to Kidd’s second season in college they average the same points per 40 minutes, but Suggs shot a higher FG% and much better FT% while Kidd was a slightly better 3 point shooter on half the attempts as Sugg. He’s no where near the passer Kidd is or averaged the same amount of steals and I can’t imagine he’d get there. What I’m saying is that there are less check marks that Suggs needs to tick off to get to a higher ceiling than Barnes. A lot of what applies to Barnes about attitude, culture, leadership applies to Suggs as well. He could very well be the better player in the short term and 3-4 years looking at work ethic and the areas he can improve on.

Wrong. No he isn't. You're also forgetting that Suggs was on an extremely stacked Gonzaga team and played in a much weaker conference. His strength of schedule was much easier than the top conferences in the NCAA. It's going to be very interesting seeing Suggs on a horrible Orlando team. I reckon his efficiency goes way down.

I think the reason why teams started to sour on Suggs a bit is because he doesn't really do anything extremely well. I think Suggs is going to be a good player in this league. I think teams are hoping he can become a Jrue Holiday type player and if that's the case that'd be one heck of a player. I can also see some Billups and Bledsoe comparisons. Bledsoe could be his floor.

Suggs has less check marks but his ceiling is nowhere near as high as Scottie's and that's why Scottie's draft stock rose and Suggs stock dropped.

[Mehar]

Why do people keep calling Barnes 6'9" when he measured out at 6'7"?

Maybe he grows a little, but right now the guy is 6'7". Just a pet peeve is all.

6'7" without shoes. Almost all player heights generally referenced on ESPN and such are with shoes.

With shoes, Barnes is 6 foot 8. It is a pet peeve of mine as well. Everyone calls Barnes 6 foot 9, when he is 6 foot 7. Teams are now instructed to give player heights without shoes. Giannis measures 6 foot 11 without shoes, and everyday I read about Barnes and the Giannis comparisons. Giannis is not the same player if he was 4 inches shorter, and 6 foot 7 like Barnes. People need to stop calling Barnes 6 foot 9. I agree with the other gentleman. Suggs is 6 foot 4 without shoes, and 6 foot 5 in shoes. So, the difference between them is 3 inches, and not 5 inches, which a couple of posters continue to do so by mistake.

[dc]

Why do people keep calling Barnes 6'9" when he measured out at 6'7"?

Maybe he grows a little, but right now the guy is 6'7". Just a pet peeve is all.

6'7" without shoes. Almost all player heights generally referenced on ESPN and such are with shoes.

With shoes, Barnes is 6 foot 8. It is a pet peeve of mine as well. Everyone calls Barnes 6 foot 9, when he is 6 foot 7. Teams are now instructed to give player heights without shoes. Giannis measures 6 foot 11 without shoes, and everyday I read about Barnes and the Giannis comparisons. Giannis is not the same player if he was 4 inches shorter, and 6 foot 7 like Barnes. People need to stop calling Barnes 6 foot 9. I agree with the other gentleman. Suggs is 6 foot 4 without shoes, and 6 foot 5 in shoes. So, the difference between them is 3 inches, and not 5 inches, which a couple of posters continue to do so by mistake.

Suggs is one of the prospects who didn't attend the combine and didn't get officially measured, but the eye test says he's somewhere between 6'3"-6'4". He stood next to Moses Moody (who measured at 6'4.5" w/o shoes) in the draft class pic and Suggs looks about an inch shorter. So 6'3.5" range is likely what Suggs is. Whatever the case, he's above avg sized for a PG and big enough to guard most SGs.

[Pooh_Jeter]

Suggs wingspan isn't ideal (6'5 or 6'6 depending on the source), but at 6'3 barefoot he is taller than John Wall, Derrick Rose and Russell Westbrook. Hell, he is actually taller than Bradley Beal too. While he isn't an elite athlete on the tier of a Westbrook or Rose, he is more than capable athletically (tip back jam anyone?). For a PG he has so many above average traits that it's foolish to dismiss him as "small" and constantly laud someone like Barnes.