Who has the brighter future? Knicks or Bulls?

[Lunartic]

I don't disagree that Randle is better defensively.

You said they put up similar offensive numbers.

4 more points per game on significantly higher efficiency isn't similar. It's what seperates good offensive players and elite offensive players.

Like I said, do you think any team would pick Randle over Lavine?

Based on needs, I could see teams going for Randle over Lavine. Randle is a better passer, defender, rebounder and just as good of a 3 point shooter. As mentioned, he had a higher VORP, WS and same BPM this past season. Overall, Randle brings more to the table than Lavine.

yep im 99 out of 100 going for randle unless im starting a new team and need a handsome dunker to hype the franchise and sell tickets on a 10 win team which is what the wolves are doing. the ability to make someone better is an ability that is the most valuable skillset and randle's outside shooting is on par nothing to talk smack. randle vs lavine is basically riding a reliable honda over a broken down old ferrari i will def take the former as my daily commute all day. give me the guy with better intangibles and higher iq who knows what he is doing.

Not to mention randle's contract is much cheaper lower than max and knicks havent even spent all their treasure chest vs a team that mortgaged their entire future on a 3yr window.

You guys know there are websites that track things like 3point shooting percentage?

Randle has a single year of shooting the 3 ball well. His previous season he shot 27% from 3, the years before that he shot 34% and 22%. That's really bad.

Lavine has a higher overall 3P% for his career has shot 41%, 38% and 37% on FAR higher attempts. There is no debate on who is the better offensive player let alone outside shooter. The stats are clear as day.

As for your car analogy, I wasn't aware that the reliable honda is supposed to utterly break down during the playoffs against a team without elite defenders 18ppg on like 400 TS is not reliable performance.

[bronxknicksfan1]

Based on needs, I could see teams going for Randle over Lavine. Randle is a better passer, defender, rebounder and just as good of a 3 point shooter. As mentioned, he had a higher VORP, WS and same BPM this past season. Overall, Randle brings more to the table than Lavine.

yep im 99 out of 100 going for randle unless im starting a new team and need a handsome dunker to hype the franchise and sell tickets on a 10 win team which is what the wolves are doing. the ability to make someone better is an ability that is the most valuable skillset and randle's outside shooting is on par nothing to talk smack. randle vs lavine is basically riding a reliable honda over a broken down old ferrari i will def take the former as my daily commute all day. give me the guy with better intangibles and higher iq who knows what he is doing.

Not to mention randle's contract is much cheaper lower than max and knicks havent even spent all their treasure chest vs a team that mortgaged their entire future on a 3yr window.

You guys know there are websites that track things like 3point shooting percentage?

Randle has a single year of shooting the 3 ball well. His previous season he shot 27% from 3, the years before that he shot 34% and 22%. That's really bad.

Lavine has a higher overall 3P% for his career has shot 41%, 38% and 37% on FAR higher attempts. There is no debate on who is the better offensive player let alone outside shooter. The stats are clear as day.

As for your car analogy, I wasn't aware that the reliable honda is supposed to utterly break down during the playoffs against a team without elite defenders 18ppg on like 400 TS is not reliable performance.

You guys are telling me this is Randle’s first good year while this is Lavine’s first year with a TS over 60%. Randle has 2 seasons with that under his belt. It’ll look even better this year now with some offensive talent surrounding him.

Lavine had an amazing year, but Randle’s year was just as good if not better because of how good he is as an overall player and was a key cog to a top 3 defense in the league.

Also, Atlanta was basically 5 v 4 against the Knicks. No Mitch meant Nerlens and Taj got all the minutes at the 5…nobody even defended them and just went straight for Randle. He could’ve been much better in the playoffs, but let’s not act like they were game planning for him specifically. And we won’t know how Zach is in the playoffs until he leads a team there.

[Hugi Mancura]

I think both teams will do some changes for next season (22-23), so it is quite hard to predict teams futures nowadays. Teams change fast in modern NBA, but how teams are build I think Bulls are more likely to run this group of people next two years.

I do like Bulls roster with the exception of their center. Vucevic is a good offensive player, but you have to have better defensive center if you want to make any noise in playoffs and because Bulls now have both Lavine and Derozan I don't see they need his offense anymore. But teams will exploit his defense in playoffs. Because teams don't play defense in regular season I wouldn't be surprised to see Bulls higher on standings this year, but I give NYK a better chance to reach second round.

What happens after that depends what teams will do. I do think Knicks are better equipped to do meaningful changes in the summer, because Bulls have to concentrate to sign Lavine. Which probably would be a max deal. Personally don't believe he is worth it, but he will get it. But then again Bulls could use Vucevic and Williams, if he doesn't show enough development, to trade another max player. So guessing where teams are next season is almost impossible.

[Lunartic]

yep im 99 out of 100 going for randle unless im starting a new team and need a handsome dunker to hype the franchise and sell tickets on a 10 win team which is what the wolves are doing. the ability to make someone better is an ability that is the most valuable skillset and randle's outside shooting is on par nothing to talk smack. randle vs lavine is basically riding a reliable honda over a broken down old ferrari i will def take the former as my daily commute all day. give me the guy with better intangibles and higher iq who knows what he is doing.

Not to mention randle's contract is much cheaper lower than max and knicks havent even spent all their treasure chest vs a team that mortgaged their entire future on a 3yr window.

You guys know there are websites that track things like 3point shooting percentage?

Randle has a single year of shooting the 3 ball well. His previous season he shot 27% from 3, the years before that he shot 34% and 22%. That's really bad.

Lavine has a higher overall 3P% for his career has shot 41%, 38% and 37% on FAR higher attempts. There is no debate on who is the better offensive player let alone outside shooter. The stats are clear as day.

As for your car analogy, I wasn't aware that the reliable honda is supposed to utterly break down during the playoffs against a team without elite defenders 18ppg on like 400 TS is not reliable performance.

You guys are telling me this is Randle’s first good year while this is Lavine’s first year with a TS over 60%. Randle has 2 seasons with that under his belt. It’ll look even better this year now with some offensive talent surrounding him.

Lavine had an amazing year, but Randle’s year was just as good if not better because of how good he is as an overall player and was a key cog to a top 3 defense in the league.

Also, Atlanta was basically 5 v 4 against the Knicks. No Mitch meant Nerlens and Taj got all the minutes at the 5…nobody even defended them and just went straight for Randle. He could’ve been much better in the playoffs, but let’s not act like they were game planning for him specifically. And we won’t know how Zach is in the playoffs until he leads a team there.

Why are you ignoring the simple point - Lavine is a much better offensive player than Randle. That's it. I'm not even suggesting he's a better overall player just that Lavine is a level above Randle on the offensive side. Stats support that.

[RHODEY]

Why not have BOTH in your poll? OP.

I voted Knicks, based on short term. Immediate.

Long term? Both teams have a bright future IMO.

Because the question (which has the brighter future) precludes one or the other...not both.

[RHODEY]

Bulls are more talented (*this year) as constructed... both should be playoff teams, neither are contenders.

Hmmm...that is debatable

[RHODEY]

Randle has had one good season under his belt. Lavine and Vuc have several. I would rather have those two than Randle on my team. I'm not saying Randle is a bad player because he's not. He's an AS player. So are Lavine and Vuc. The Bulls have two AS players I rate both higher than Randle. I rate the Bulls a little higher than Knicks accordingly.

This isn't Randle's first good season. Randle is also a better defender than either Lavine or Vuc while putting up similar offensive numbers. Not to say he's better than Lavine and Vuc, but neither of them are better than him. They're in the same realm.

I agree that defense matters and Randle is better than Vuc.

He's nowhere near Zach in terms of scoring ability though. His best scoring year was this past year and he put up 24ppg on .567 ts vs Zach putting up 27 ppg on .634 ts, huge gulf in efficiency despite higher volume from Zach.

Admittedly, Zach didn't make the playoffs but Randle put together an all time atrocious offensive performance - 18ppg on .420TS.

As of now, most teams would much rather have Lavine over Randle.

Randle can also pass , rebound and defend ...these things should be factored in otherwise Bradley Beal > Lebron...

[KembaWalker]

the Bulls don't have a future they have a present. they'll be a good team but literally no one on their roster is primed to make a significant leap like that, they're almost all known quanitites. Knicks have some guys that could take big steps still on their depth charts weird question and weirder poll results

[SecondTake]

You left off Patrick Williams, last years' 4th overall pick. He started the whole season and played pretty well but verdict is still out on him (he's only 19). He'll likely start at the 4 btw.

I didn't really think he was worth mentioning yet. 9 ppg 4.5 rpg 10.53PER

To be fair people love Mitchell Robinson too and say he's an all star and I didn't exactly heavily sell him and he's giving you 8 and 8 on 17 per with his high block rate.

But yeah Patrick Williams is the exact type of player as to why I didn't label Robinson as a core part of the comparison.

It's because those kids are elite defensive talents already and...at least in Williams' case...they have interesting potential offensively. Less so with mitch, who may be an elite rim-runner/roll-man, but isn't likely to ever be much more than a lob threat offensively.

Noel did well for us, but he was a clear step down from Robinson. Not only because he (like Payton) contributed nothing offensively, but also because he's just not as good defensively as Robinson. Not as strong when dealing with bigger bigs, and not as quick/long when switched onto little guys, dealing with the PnR, or defending in space.

Williams wasn't as much of a defensive anchor for the Bulls...but he was a rookie & his offensive game showed flashes of maturity that I couldn't help but be intrigued by. Would've really loved to have him next to RJ for the next decade if that draft had played out differently.



As for the thread. It's a toss up, the bulls have more talent on paper & might be closer to breaking into that next tier if the stars align for them next season...at least unless Derrick tells Kemba about the fountain of youth...but we have the better defensive talent & identity, with more flexibility & assets moving forward.

Although a big swing factor will also be Julius, if that atlanta series was just the moment getting to him & he'll come back prepared for that intensity this season, that's one thing & it's a toss up in the short- & long-term...flexibility & picks don't mean s*** if you squander them...if it was Atlanta laying out a blueprint for how to stifle Randle, that he can not adjust to, then that changes things

Barrett & Williams' development could really swing this either way as well, but I'm really high on both players for their combination of tools, intelligence, & drive...so don't wanna predict either one significantly outperforming the other and hope that over the next 5-10 years we have plenty of debates about the two of them & All-NBA placement.

Noel is a much better defender than Robinson. He lead the league in Dbpm. He's a top five defender in the game

Sent from my SM-G950W using RealGM mobile app

[PlayerUp]

the Bulls don't have a future they have a present. they'll be a good team but literally no one on their roster is primed to make a significant leap like that

Patrick Williams who? - 19
Lonzo Ball who? - 23
Coby White who? - 21

Bulls have lost 2 protected 1st Rd Picks and people say they have no room to grow despite having a 2022, 2024, 2026, 2027, 2028, 2029 1st Rd Picks coming up. Then they'll also get back assets once the Lauri Markkanen trade is completed. They'll perfectly fine on assets and low 2nd Rd Picks which they would have here can be bought for cash considerations.

[PlayerUp]

I love Zo and Williams but unless LaVine commits to defense, they’ll be at best fighting for the last seeds.

Lavine DRPM was positive for the 1st time in his career last season.

[KembaWalker]

the Bulls don't have a future they have a present. they'll be a good team but literally no one on their roster is primed to make a significant leap like that

Patrick Williams who? - 19
Lonzo Ball who? - 23
Coby White who? - 21

Bulls have lost 2 protected 1st Rd Picks and people say they have no room to grow despite having a 2022, 2024, 2026, 2027, 2028, 2029 1st Rd Picks coming up. Then they'll also get back assets once the Lauri Markkanen trade is completed. They'll perfectly fine on assets and low 2nd Rd Picks which they would have here can be bought for cash considerations.

sure there are young players like any other team but they aren't going to develop to their full capacity with Ball, Lavine, DeRozan, Vucevic. theres not enough shots or opportunity to go around. they basically went out of their way to tell you they arent looking toward the future at all with these moves, they wanna compete now. i'm not gonna argue with that

[jpengland]

Knicks.

Bulls have pushed all in on a ragtag bunch of guys who have not shown an ability to win. I'm much lower on Vuc than just about anybody, to be fair. I think they have a ceiling of a second round playoff series and likely first round knockouts.

I also think most of those deals will be difficult to move for positive value so any pivot will likely be swapping for someone else's unwanted parts

[PlayerUp]

the Bulls don't have a future they have a present. they'll be a good team but literally no one on their roster is primed to make a significant leap like that

Patrick Williams who? - 19
Lonzo Ball who? - 23
Coby White who? - 21

Bulls have lost 2 protected 1st Rd Picks and people say they have no room to grow despite having a 2022, 2024, 2026, 2027, 2028, 2029 1st Rd Picks coming up. Then they'll also get back assets once the Lauri Markkanen trade is completed. They'll perfectly fine on assets and low 2nd Rd Picks which they would have here can be bought for cash considerations.

sure there are young players like any other team but they aren't going to develop to their full capacity with Ball, Lavine, DeRozan, Vucevic. theres not enough shots or opportunity to go around. they basically went out of their way to tell you they arent looking toward the future at all with these moves, they wanna compete now. i'm not gonna argue with that

Good players find ways to excel. Injuries happen during the season which builds opportunity. If any player is willing to take a leap forward, they'll find a way to do so no matter what team they are on.

[jbk1234]

For me, this really comes down to the Ball/LaVine backcourt. Ball is, theoretically, the perfect compliment to LaVine. If it works, then the Bulls are in better shape than the Knicks. If it doesn't, then it's a pretty good sign that building around LaVine as your best player won't work.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

[jvsimonetti0514]

I voted Knicks cuz I'm a knicks fan but I think it really comes down to whether there's more room to grow with RJ and Randle or Lavine and Lonzo. Lavine has the highest ceiling of them all but I think RJ has a much higher ceiling than Lonzo. I just don't see Lonzo ever being a 20 ppg or an off the bouncer scorer and I wouldn't be shocked if RJ developed into one this year. Trust me, I get that there's more to basketball than just scoring but it is the most important aspect of ones game. The only way I really see this changing is if there's some secret dribble drive game that Lonzo has been hiding due to his role or whatever. It also helps that the Knicks have two first round picks from other teams and like another 6 2nd rounders. Which I think tips the scales in the Knicks favor for better future.

The rest of the guys surrounding them are old and either know qualities or on the decline. In the short term, I'm curiously to see how Demar and Lavine fit together cuz it seems obvious to me that you want the ball in Lavine hands but DeRozan doesn't have any off ball game. For the Knicks, it's all about health. If Rose and Kemba can stay healthy with Rose being as impactful as he was last year, the Knicks should be the better team. Rose on the floor with our starters had us playing like a top 5 offense. Sharing those minutes with Kemba as opposed to Elfrid Payton should see us as a much more consistent offensive team.

[dockingsched]

Bulls best player is Lavine, and Knicks best player is Randle, I don’t see someone on their rosters set to surpass them. Hard to argue either has a bright future until that changes.

With that said, a lot easier to live with Lavine and he excited about rue Bulls versus a team built around someone like Randle that has such glaring weaknesses that are so easily exposed once teams actually game plan. Til that happens Randle as your premiere centerpiece is a perfect way to get you firmly on the treadmill. Not good enough to be a centerpiece, and without the skill set to be a complimentary player when someone better comes along.

[bronxknicksfan1]

Bulls best player is Lavine, and Knicks best player is Randle, I don’t see someone on their rosters set to surpass them. Hard to argue either has a bright future until that changes.

With that said, a lot easier to live with Lavine and he excited about rue Bulls versus a team built around someone like Randle that has such glaring weaknesses that are so easily exposed once teams actually game plan. Til that happens Randle as your premiere centerpiece is a perfect way to get you firmly on the treadmill. Not good enough to be a centerpiece, and without the skill set to be a complimentary player when someone better comes along.

What would you say are Randle's glaring weaknesses? I don't believe he's the centerpiece that'll get the Knicks anywhere, but if anything, it was exposed that the Knicks had very few offensive options outside of Randle going into the playoffs. The Knicks addressed this with their offseason moves by adding Fournier and Kemba while retaining Rose and Burks for the bench scoring.

While Lavine is a great offensive scoring talent, can't neglect the fact that he's a sieve defensively. While they did get Ball, they got rid Thad, who was one of their top defenders last year. And Derozan is no better on defense. Same with Vuc. So they'll be a great potential on offense, but that defense will leave a lot to be desired unless Patrick Williams becomes an All-NBA defender.

[RHODEY]

Bulls best player is Lavine, and Knicks best player is Randle, I don’t see someone on their rosters set to surpass them. Hard to argue either has a bright future until that changes.

With that said, a lot easier to live with Lavine and he excited about rue Bulls versus a team built around someone like Randle that has such glaring weaknesses that are so easily exposed once teams actually game plan. Til that happens Randle as your premiere centerpiece is a perfect way to get you firmly on the treadmill. Not good enough to be a centerpiece, and without the skill set to be a complimentary player when someone better comes along.

Yeah its kinda like when you best player is 36 years old.

[GAthens34]

The Knicks.
All of their contracts minus Fournier, are tradable and have their picks.