The too early Suggs vs. Barnes thread

[Los_29]

Why do people keep calling Barnes 6'9" when he measured out at 6'7"?

Maybe he grows a little, but right now the guy is 6'7". Just a pet peeve is all.

6'7" without shoes. Almost all player heights generally referenced on ESPN and such are with shoes.

With shoes, Barnes is 6 foot 8. It is a pet peeve of mine as well. Everyone calls Barnes 6 foot 9, when he is 6 foot 7. Teams are now instructed to give player heights without shoes. Giannis measures 6 foot 11 without shoes, and everyday I read about Barnes and the Giannis comparisons. Giannis is not the same player if he was 4 inches shorter, and 6 foot 7 like Barnes. People need to stop calling Barnes 6 foot 9. I agree with the other gentleman. Suggs is 6 foot 4 without shoes, and 6 foot 5 in shoes. So, the difference between them is 3 inches, and not 5 inches, which a couple of posters continue to do so by mistake.

Wingspan is arguably more important and I think Scottie has close to a 7'4 wingspan which would be the same as Giannis.

[Mehar]

Suggs wingspan isn't ideal (6'5 or 6'6 depending on the source), but at 6'3 barefoot he is taller than John Wall, Derrick Rose and Russell Westbrook. Hell, he is actually taller than Bradley Beal too. While he isn't an elite athlete on the tier of a Westbrook or Rose, he is more than capable athletically (tip back jam anyone?). For a PG he has so many above average traits that it's foolish to dismiss him as "small" and constantly laud someone like Barnes.

In one of the Gonzaga games I watched earlier this year, the broadcasters mentioned Suggs measured 6 foot 5 with shoes, and 6 foot 4 without shoes. He is 4 inches taller than Lowry, so the argument he is a small guard is laughable.

[normgod6]

I'd go further than that, if Barnes had the exact same performances he has had with the Raptors and was on a team like OKC or the Magic he would be called a bust and people would be using that as proof that "tanking doesn't work."

Except that's not what would happen. A lot of people wanted Mobley, but knew he would be a work in progress too. Are people calling him a bust because of a few SL games in which he's averaging 13 PTS on 33/20/50 shooting? Nope.

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No one is calling Barnes a bust after 3 summer league games. I’m sure there are Cavs fans that are pointing out that Mobley hasn’t looked great in summer league and he’s going to be a project. I honestly don’t see why people get worked up over honest assessments. If Barnes looked great then he’d rightly get some praise. The best rookies in summer league so far have been Jalen Green, then in no particular order:
Cade Cunningham
Suggs
Duarte
Cooper
Trey Murphy
Jalen Johnson
Sengun
Cam Thomas
Bouknight

Then you have guys like Barnes, Josh Christopher, Davion Mitchell and a host of other dudes that you can include Mobley in there. But there’s no way Mobley had played like a top tier player which I’m sure disappoints some fans

cade definitely hasnt looked very good. He looked kind of slow and small when trying to beat his man off the dribble. Good passer though for sure

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[normgod6]

Suggs wingspan isn't ideal (6'5 or 6'6 depending on the source), but at 6'3 barefoot he is taller than John Wall, Derrick Rose and Russell Westbrook. Hell, he is actually taller than Bradley Beal too. While he isn't an elite athlete on the tier of a Westbrook or Rose, he is more than capable athletically (tip back jam anyone?). For a PG he has so many above average traits that it's foolish to dismiss him as "small" and constantly laud someone like Barnes.

In one of the Gonzaga games I watched earlier this year, the broadcasters mentioned Suggs measured 6 foot 5 with shoes, and 6 foot 4 without shoes. He is 4 inches taller than Lowry, so the argument he is a small guard is laughable.

I doubt that is accurate and wouldnt take such stock in a random broadcast that says hes 6'5 in shoes. Every source i have read lists him at 6'4. And even just seeing him play he doesnt look 6'5

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[ForeverTFC]

Such rubbish about Harden in here. He was a blue chip prospect expected to go top 5, went 3rd, and had better upside as a scorer than Suggs by any report, especially as an iso scorer and iso shooter. Just because he was 6th man on a stacked team before reaching his potential in Houston means nothing.

As for Curry, if everyone knew where the league was going with 3 point shooting,he would have gone way higher as he was one of the better pure shooting prospects ever. He was the leading college scorer, period and it was so far past where any of this years prospects were.

The league was still focused on bigs, and all you have to do is look at that draft and see how many were taken that were terrible.

And it's **** hilarious to spout off about Suggs work ethic while simultaneously ignoring the fact that its Barnes strength and one of the main reasons he was drafted higher. If you were drafting on work ethic alone you take Barnes or Mitchell.

Just so much trash revision of history.

You literally just contradicted your own argument.

The league is going smaller and towards shooting, yet the Raptors took a player who can't shoot and whose main selling point is his size/length.

If two players have great work ethic, but one player is already much more skilled and developed who would you take?

this is false. The league is getting bigger. Stagnation has happened at the 5 spot, but 1-4 is growing in height.

[OakleyDokely]

Such rubbish about Harden in here. He was a blue chip prospect expected to go top 5, went 3rd, and had better upside as a scorer than Suggs by any report, especially as an iso scorer and iso shooter. Just because he was 6th man on a stacked team before reaching his potential in Houston means nothing.

As for Curry, if everyone knew where the league was going with 3 point shooting,he would have gone way higher as he was one of the better pure shooting prospects ever. He was the leading college scorer, period and it was so far past where any of this years prospects were.

The league was still focused on bigs, and all you have to do is look at that draft and see how many were taken that were terrible.

And it's **** hilarious to spout off about Suggs work ethic while simultaneously ignoring the fact that its Barnes strength and one of the main reasons he was drafted higher. If you were drafting on work ethic alone you take Barnes or Mitchell.

Just so much trash revision of history.

You literally just contradicted your own argument.

The league is going smaller and towards shooting, yet the Raptors took a player who can't shoot and whose main selling point is his size/length.

If two players have great work ethic, but one player is already much more skilled and developed who would you take?

this is false. The league is getting bigger. Stagnation has happened at the 5 spot, but 1-4 is growing in height.

Yup. The centre position is smaller than it once was. Don't have those 7'2 stiffs logging big minutes anymore but your typical ballhandlers and wings are a lot bigger. It's all about length, versatility and switchability. Which is why you take prospects like Precious over prospects like Maxey.

[mademan]

It’s getting tiring reading constantly about how great Suggs is on the raps board before he’s even played a game. We get it. Y’all love him. Go become magic fans or something cause this is getting insufferable

[10giz]

People don't get it. The game has changed. Role players. Specialists. These are absolutely **** crucial.

You know what you get if Suggs turns out great? A PG who's gonna be making 20+ % of your cap. You know how that ends? Severly limiting your teams flexibility.

Wall, Westbrook, Russell, Kemba, etc...Good players. Great players. Eventually all traded over and over again. It's been proven that its just not a good way to build a championship team. The PGs role has just been streamlined and minimized so much over the year with players of all positions being able to create. Obviously there are outliers - this isn't a rule thats set in stone but go look at every title winning team and a trend will be seen.

Suggs is awesome. He's gonna be great for that franchise and I wish him nothing but the best career possible. I hope he installs a culture that changes Orlando.

That being said, the fact that the only names I hear him compared to are literally HOFers...and Jrue - is just setting up unreasonable expectations.

People who don't understand the game will just look at Suggs stats, flashy name and cry that we passed.

I don't need or expect Barnes to be any kind of superstar. That being said, with what I've seen already, I'm taking the unicorn role player 10/10 over the "star" PG>

[Basketball_Jones]

Summer league, preseason, I’m honestly not gonna panac until all star break

[rapstarter]

People don't get it. The game has changed. Role players. Specialists. These are absolutely **** crucial.

You know what you get if Suggs turns out great? A PG who's gonna be making 20+ % of your cap. You know how that ends? Severly limiting your teams flexibility.

Wall, Westbrook, Russell, Kemba, etc...Good players. Great players. Eventually all traded over and over again. It's been proven that its just not a good way to build a championship team. The PGs role has just been streamlined and minimized so much over the year with players of all positions being able to create. Obviously there are outliers - this isn't a rule thats set in stone but go look at every title winning team and a trend will be seen.

Suggs is awesome. He's gonna be great for that franchise and I wish him nothing but the best career possible. I hope he installs a culture that changes Orlando.

That being said, the fact that the only names I hear him compared to are literally HOFers...and Jrue - is just setting up unreasonable expectations.

People who don't understand the game will just look at Suggs stats, flashy name and cry that we passed.

I don't need or expect Barnes to be any kind of superstar. That being said, with what I've seen already, I'm taking the unicorn role player 10/10 over the "star" PG>

1) Unicorn role players can't raise a team by themselves either. They need "stars" around them too.
2) It's not like unicorn role players don't get paid a lot of money. They will get paid the max too.

[ItsDanger]

Barnes 3 game summer league averages aside from scoring: 6.7 FTA, 7.3 RPG, 3.0 APG, 1.0 SPG, 2.0 BPG.

[shefcurry]

The FTA stat is being ignored. Someone elite at drawing fouls is much likely to be an impact offensive player than someone who can light it up in the summer league without FTA’s.

[Danny1616]

Suggs wingspan isn't ideal (6'5 or 6'6 depending on the source), but at 6'3 barefoot he is taller than John Wall, Derrick Rose and Russell Westbrook. Hell, he is actually taller than Bradley Beal too. While he isn't an elite athlete on the tier of a Westbrook or Rose, he is more than capable athletically (tip back jam anyone?). For a PG he has so many above average traits that it's foolish to dismiss him as "small" and constantly laud someone like Barnes.

Literally almost no one is saying Suggs is small...you simply inferred that. He has good size for a guard or combo guard.

What many of us are saying it's that we have no idea who will be a better player in the next 3-4 years. Suggs looks like he's the better guy coming in while Barnes looks like he may have the higher ceiling based on his athleticism, length, vision etc. for his size.

Don't fall into the trap of dissecting every single game like it foreshadows the next 5 years. Many of us are saying that Suggs will probably look better in his rookie season...the key question is who will look better in a few years.

[jimross]

People don't get it. The game has changed. Role players. Specialists. These are absolutely **** crucial.

You know what you get if Suggs turns out great? A PG who's gonna be making 20+ % of your cap. You know how that ends? Severly limiting your teams flexibility.

Wall, Westbrook, Russell, Kemba, etc...Good players. Great players. Eventually all traded over and over again. It's been proven that its just not a good way to build a championship team. The PGs role has just been streamlined and minimized so much over the year with players of all positions being able to create. Obviously there are outliers - this isn't a rule thats set in stone but go look at every title winning team and a trend will be seen.

Suggs is awesome. He's gonna be great for that franchise and I wish him nothing but the best career possible. I hope he installs a culture that changes Orlando.

That being said, the fact that the only names I hear him compared to are literally HOFers...and Jrue - is just setting up unreasonable expectations.

People who don't understand the game will just look at Suggs stats, flashy name and cry that we passed.

I don't need or expect Barnes to be any kind of superstar. That being said, with what I've seen already, I'm taking the unicorn role player 10/10 over the "star" PG>

Suggs ceiling projects to be way better than those guys mentioned. All of whom are severely flawed on one side of the ball and/or can't shoot.

Also every championship team needs players that can score and be counted on down the stretch. Suggs can be that guy. Mabey not an elite #1 option but a fringe #1 and high end #2.

Look at Draymonds effect on the Warriors when Curry and/or Thompson are injured. The team doesn't win.

Elite roll players are great when you have a legit #1 and #2 scoring option. We don't have a #1 and it's arguable if we even have a legit #2.

I don't even dislike Barnes but for him to be worth the pick when you had someone like Suggs available he HAS to be able to score. This team needs scorers in the worst way. A unicorn role player isn't really moving the needle with the way this current core is constructed.

[Johnny Bball]

Barnes is raw, no doubt about that, but to counter your points:

1) He has very good handles for someone 6'9.
2) He has very good vision for someone 6'9.
3) He has elite athleticism and quickness for someone 6'9.
4) He is a versatile defender and high motor player that can guard 1-5.
5) He just turned 20.

Why not wait 3 years and then reevaluate instead of making blanket predictions? Are you then assuming Barnes is unmotivated and lazy?

Suggs has:
1) Elite size for his position
2) Already the makings of an all NBA defender
3) Can already run a NBA offence
4) Elite passer and playmaker
5) Above average athleticism for his position
6) Been the best player on the best team in college
7) Only 20

Honestly I’m not predicting either of them meets or surpasses expectations but I question what makes Barnes a better prospect in 3-4 years from now considering he has a lot more boxes to check to make it to his comparison of Draymond Green than it is for Suggs to become a Brandon Roy/John Wall comparison.

It’s comical how much Suggs reputation on this board changed as soon as Masai picked Scottie. If anyone had come to the board and said Masai was gonna pick Barnes, they would have been called a troll, and that was before many realized how far he had to go offensively.

viewtopic.php?p=92785136#p92785136

Bring it.

[Los_29]

I'd go further than that, if Barnes had the exact same performances he has had with the Raptors and was on a team like OKC or the Magic he would be called a bust and people would be using that as proof that "tanking doesn't work."

Except that's not what would happen. A lot of people wanted Mobley, but knew he would be a work in progress too. Are people calling him a bust because of a few SL games in which he's averaging 13 PTS on 33/20/50 shooting? Nope.

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No one is calling Barnes a bust after 3 summer league games. I’m sure there are Cavs fans that are pointing out that Mobley hasn’t looked great in summer league and he’s going to be a project. I honestly don’t see why people get worked up over honest assessments. If Barnes looked great then he’d rightly get some praise. The best rookies in summer league so far have been Jalen Green, then in no particular order:
Cade Cunningham
Suggs
Duarte
Cooper
Trey Murphy
Jalen Johnson
Sengun
Cam Thomas
Bouknight

Then you have guys like Barnes, Josh Christopher, Davion Mitchell and a host of other dudes that you can include Mobley in there. But there’s no way Mobley had played like a top tier player which I’m sure disappoints some fans

Do you also notice what position all of your players on your list play with the exception of Sengun who got obliterated last game by us? There isn't a single big man on your list. This is the biggest problem with Summer League. A lot of these players have contributed nothing other than putting the ball in the basket at mediocre efficiency. Are we really supposed to be impressed with guards who can score on bad efficiency in the Summer League?

Barnes and Mobley have been even less efficient on the offensive end but they are beating the majority of these guys in every other category including steals and assists.

If we were to do top 10 lists for every Summer League the past 10 years the top 10 the majority of them wouldn't be the best players from that draft class. Generally Summer League is terrible predictor of future success in the NBA.

[C3SIUM]

I really do see him as a very raw RAW young Kawhi. I do think the biggest factor is his motor and his passion. He his never going to settle and will continue to improve just as Kawhi did. While I do like Suggs, I am super high on Scottie. Team Barnes all the way.

[libertyYYZ]

Suggs has:
1) Elite size for his position
2) Already the makings of an all NBA defender
3) Can already run a NBA offence
4) Elite passer and playmaker
5) Above average athleticism for his position
6) Been the best player on the best team in college
7) Only 20

Honestly I’m not predicting either of them meets or surpasses expectations but I question what makes Barnes a better prospect in 3-4 years from now considering he has a lot more boxes to check to make it to his comparison of Draymond Green than it is for Suggs to become a Brandon Roy/John Wall comparison.

It’s comical how much Suggs reputation on this board changed as soon as Masai picked Scottie. If anyone had come to the board and said Masai was gonna pick Barnes, they would have been called a troll, and that was before many realized how far he had to go offensively.

viewtopic.php?p=92785136#p92785136

Bring it.

LOL! Great call J BBall!

[Odie29]

Barnes defense in summer league has been as advertised.

On offense he looks even worse than I expected and that was already a low bar. His touch around the rim is horrible. His playmaking also seems quite a bit overrated. He has a very basic handle and passing ability- albeit good for his size. I also am annoyed by his lack of aggression- I am sure in part due to a lack of confidence at that end.

He is obviously a project player on offense as his defensive tools and effort are already a guarantee to translate. Management and coaching has confidence in their ability to develop skills and they have their work cut out for them on this one. Other than his average handle and passing (which is rated good at his size) we are building from scratch with him.

[Pointgod]

Suggs has:
1) Elite size for his position
2) Already the makings of an all NBA defender
3) Can already run a NBA offence
4) Elite passer and playmaker
5) Above average athleticism for his position
6) Been the best player on the best team in college
7) Only 20

Honestly I’m not predicting either of them meets or surpasses expectations but I question what makes Barnes a better prospect in 3-4 years from now considering he has a lot more boxes to check to make it to his comparison of Draymond Green than it is for Suggs to become a Brandon Roy/John Wall comparison.

It’s comical how much Suggs reputation on this board changed as soon as Masai picked Scottie. If anyone had come to the board and said Masai was gonna pick Barnes, they would have been called a troll, and that was before many realized how far he had to go offensively.

viewtopic.php?p=92785136#p92785136

Bring it.

That thread poll showed Barnes at 7% and Suggs at 40% and this thread poll has Barnes at 57% and Suggs at 43%. That swing kind of proves the point of being post you were responding to that the opinion on Suggs completely changed as soon as Masai made the pick.