Trade Talk (Part Seven)

[Tomjas]

Jon Krawczynski joined Dan Barreiro earlier today:
https://www.iheart.com/podcast/139-the-dan-barreiro-show-26981004/

Latest on Simmons:
- He knows, for a fact, the Wolves continue to try and engage on Simmons -- have not given up as the team believes he would be a great fit.
- Doesn't think there's a huge market out there for him. Teams, at this point, want to start the season and see what they have.
- 76ers asking for the moon and stars, holding out in hopes Lillard pushes the ejection seat to force the Blazers to the table.
- Indications are Simmons is not enamored coming to training camp and starting season with Philly.
- Anticipates asking price could drop over next couple of weeks. Wolves would still need to find a third team to give 76ers the win-now package.
- Feels Beverley may be an asset to be used in Simmons deal. Easier to sell than the likes of Culver and Hernangomez.

I also wanted to remind people just how hard it is to build a team around Simmons extreme limitations. I’m not saying he isn’t good at what he does do, but as the Sixers know, he doesn’t fit with a lot of teams. Most teams don’t have the right mix, and those that were close lost the time it takes during the summer to get the right pieces around him. I think Morey made a mistake by asking for the moon and delaying a trade, because it cost him buyers - they needed to get on with their summer and build their rosters without Simmons.

Again, I disagree with people who say he is a “perfect fit” here. He minimizes Towns advantage of forcing a big to defend both our bigs outside, and by packing Simmons defender lower, they clog the lane, hurting Edwards too. I’d also remind people MIN was 25th in 3P% last season. I have never believed PHI can just bring Simmons back, but there aren’t many teams who would trade for him now either. I hope MIN passes on him.

In this case we should build around Simmons strenghts, not weaknesses. He has an unique skillset which can be blessing or problem. For instance, UTA built roster around Gobert. That is not "five-out", that is "four out". Gobert is an excellent roll man, he offers this roll man gravity that we currently dont have. I always say that stretching towards the rim is such an underrated skill, because it compliments stretch the floor concept. For instance, UTA was 1st in 3PA and 4th in 38.9%. Even with Gobert limitations as scorer (no post game, not great at catching the ball and finishing in traffic with advanced moves) Gobert is an integral part of offense.

UTA problem was that Gobert cant defend in space. I knew that Simmons can defend top ballhandlers on perimeter, but I have recently seen Simmons video, where he (240lbs) defends way more bigger players such as Jusuf Nurkic (280lbs) in post. If Simmons can really defend 1 through 5 position it makes him really an ideal defensive fit here in MIN.

Bingo

Simmons should have won DPOY by a street

He’s BY FAR the best 1-4 defender in the nba & makes everyone around him much better

He’s not strong enough yet to defend guys like Embiid for 40 minutes so you need a big banger like Gasol

We literally paid Horford $100 million to protect Embiid

[Nick K]

Sixers fan here

Sorry but some of you guys have no idea

Simmons/KAT/Ant/D’lo gets you to playoffs year 1 health permitting

And that’s coming off a 23 win season

He’s that good

You will be frustrated (as we are) BUT the guy wins nba games

Problem is that you guys have nobody that the Sixers want outside of KAT and Ant so deal will be complicated

You neglect to realize they won 23 games because they played huge chunks of the season with 3 of their top 4 players out and a bad HC calling the shots. They were a 500 team the last 23 games when mostly healthy at 12-11.

[Dewey]

Finally, as to the “good contract vs bad contract” debate, I’d lean towards bad, but I think it’s close. For big name, big salary players, they often receive slightly positive trade returns, but with the size of the contract, they fall off a cliff quickly and become one of the league’s worst contracts.

First, for even the most ardent Simmons fan, do you think his production could be worth more than $140 mil over the next four years? That’s a lot of money - and it’s guaranteed. The odds that Simmons loses time to injury over that period, or doesn’t improve his shooting, or never regains his confidence, is pretty high, so the contract has a lot of downside, and not much upside. Moreover, players who’d strongest skill is defense never get big salaries - “go to” scorers get paid.

However, the other side of the coin is that a player like Simmons may win you games. Big name/salary players consolidate talent into one of the five roster spots you can get on the floor.if you paid $90 mil for 90 units of production for the rest of your team, spending $10 mil for 10 more units still loses you games if the other team puts up 105 units. That $10 doesn’t help you win. However, if Ben gives you 20 more units for $30 mil, that may be “overpaid” on average, but with the 110 units, you now win that game. This is why borderline superstars get max deals. I just question whether Simmons flaws (irregular fit, lack of growth, confidence, shooting) can all simultaneously exist and we still pay a guy like a superstar.

Stars with holes are the most likely candidates in the NBA to become bad contracts.

Damn, that's good. Right on.

I’m more indifferent in this whole topic and see alot of gray area and unknowns vs. the black and white arguments.

Think of a hot air balloon… they have ropes holding it down that prevent it from rising. Every rope you cut the higher it goes. Just like the stock market - if you were able to eliminate the lows, the trend-line will increase. So…

Team consistency: if you address a teams critical need (defense) with a high level defender, the team performance will likely trend higher.

Team Roster: A puzzle comes in a box - many can appear similar, yet every piece has holes - all the pieces need to fit with other pieces to make a puzzle. Simmons and KAT for example excel in different ways, but would need to fit together and fit the roster (chemistry)

There just is not a known right and wrong at this point… it’s more about value in value out upfront based on opinion … the fit TBD. Once it is, then we can say good or bad contract.

[Tomjas]

Sixers fan here

Sorry but some of you guys have no idea

Simmons/KAT/Ant/D’lo gets you to playoffs year 1 health permitting

And that’s coming off a 23 win season

He’s that good

You will be frustrated (as we are) BUT the guy wins nba games

Problem is that you guys have nobody that the Sixers want outside of KAT and Ant so deal will be complicated

You neglect to realize they won 23 games because they played huge chunks of the season with 3 of their top 4 players out and a bad HC calling the shots. They were a 500 team the last 23 games when mostly healthy at 12-11.

12-11??????


Who gives a ****!

Simmons gets you to 50 wins+, teaches Edwards to play defence and keeps KAT

As a Sixers fan, I find so many of your arguments ridiculous

Twolves have literally nothing we want because KAT & Ant are off the table and justifiably so

But let’s not pretend that Simmons wouldn’t MASSIVELY improve your team

Minnesota won 23 games

Simmons would do that with our G league team

[thinktank]

Sixers fan here

Sorry but some of you guys have no idea

Simmons/KAT/Ant/D’lo gets you to playoffs year 1 health permitting

And that’s coming off a 23 win season

He’s that good

You will be frustrated (as we are) BUT the guy wins nba games

Problem is that you guys have nobody that the Sixers want outside of KAT and Ant so deal will be complicated

You neglect to realize they won 23 games because they played huge chunks of the season with 3 of their top 4 players out and a bad HC calling the shots. They were a 500 team the last 23 games when mostly healthy at 12-11.

12-11??????


Who gives a ****!

Simmons gets you to 50 wins+, teaches Edwards to play defence and keeps KAT

As a Sixers fan, I find so many of your arguments ridiculous

Twolves have literally nothing we want because KAT & Ant are off the table and justifiably so

But let’s not pretend that Simmons wouldn’t MASSIVELY improve your team

3 team deal.

[shrink]

Jon Krawczynski joined Dan Barreiro earlier today:
https://www.iheart.com/podcast/139-the-dan-barreiro-show-26981004/

Latest on Simmons:
- He knows, for a fact, the Wolves continue to try and engage on Simmons -- have not given up as the team believes he would be a great fit.
- Doesn't think there's a huge market out there for him. Teams, at this point, want to start the season and see what they have.
- 76ers asking for the moon and stars, holding out in hopes Lillard pushes the ejection seat to force the Blazers to the table.
- Indications are Simmons is not enamored coming to training camp and starting season with Philly.
- Anticipates asking price could drop over next couple of weeks. Wolves would still need to find a third team to give 76ers the win-now package.
- Feels Beverley may be an asset to be used in Simmons deal. Easier to sell than the likes of Culver and Hernangomez.

I also wanted to remind people just how hard it is to build a team around Simmons extreme limitations. I’m not saying he isn’t good at what he does do, but as the Sixers know, he doesn’t fit with a lot of teams. Most teams don’t have the right mix, and those that were close lost the time it takes during the summer to get the right pieces around him. I think Morey made a mistake by asking for the moon and delaying a trade, because it cost him buyers - they needed to get on with their summer and build their rosters without Simmons.

Again, I disagree with people who say he is a “perfect fit” here. He minimizes Towns advantage of forcing a big to defend both our bigs outside, and by packing Simmons defender lower, they clog the lane, hurting Edwards too. I’d also remind people MIN was 25th in 3P% last season. I have never believed PHI can just bring Simmons back, but there aren’t many teams who would trade for him now either. I hope MIN passes on him.

In this case we should build around Simmons strenghts, not weaknesses. He has an unique skillset which can be blessing or problem. For instance, UTA built roster around Gobert. That is not "five-out", that is "four out". Gobert is an excellent roll man, he offers this roll man gravity that we currently dont have. I always say that stretching towards the rim is such an underrated skill, because it compliments stretch the floor concept. For instance, UTA was 1st in 3PA and 4th in 38.9%. Even with Gobert limitations as scorer (no post game, not great at catching the ball and finishing in traffic with advanced moves) Gobert is an integral part of offense.

UTA problem was that Gobert cant defend in space. I knew that Simmons can defend top ballhandlers on perimeter, but I have recently seen Simmons video, where he (240lbs) defends way more bigger players such as Jusuf Nurkic (280lbs) in post. If Simmons can really defend 1 through 5 position it makes him really an ideal defensive fit here in MIN.

It’s interesting that you mentioned Utah, because he is the team I use to make my case.

First, the five out. A couple seasons ago, when MIN had two bigs that could shoot three’s, we played Utah back to back, in a home and away. In the first game, Towns torched the Jazz from outside in a MIN victory. They kept Gobert close to the basket, because he is historically good in that role. In the second game, the Jazz actually had Gobert play KAT man-to-man. Imagine - one of the best defenses in the NBA, specifically designed to drive everyone towards one of the best defensive centers ever - completely changed their entire system! That is the match up problem that opposing coaches face with Towns, if he is paired with a big that can even nominally shoot three’s. If we had a big who can’t shoot like Simmons, Utah defends Towns with a PF to the three point line, and gets to keep Gobert underneath. Rudy has been one of the NBA’s best ever at reducing the number of shots a team takes inside, and reducing opposing FG% on the shots they do take by altering shots. Players like Towns and especially Ant obviously suffer on drives if Gobert is there to meet them in the lane

And I get tired of Simmon’s skillset being labeled “unique,” rather than being called what it is - one with great strengths and giant holes. Yes, shooting 34% on free throws in this years final does make you unique, but the word hides the damage a player can do without the confidence in crucial moments to not simply be hacked and put on the line. On his giant deal, Simmons has value if he can overcome his shooting issues, and won’t avoid dunking a ball. If MIN uniquely qualified to restore his confidence, and finally get him to develop to be even an average shooter?

Yes - except for Simmons glaring holes, he’s a great player. But every opposing coach is going to target the glaring holes.

[minimus]

I also wanted to remind people just how hard it is to build a team around Simmons extreme limitations. I’m not saying he isn’t good at what he does do, but as the Sixers know, he doesn’t fit with a lot of teams. Most teams don’t have the right mix, and those that were close lost the time it takes during the summer to get the right pieces around him. I think Morey made a mistake by asking for the moon and delaying a trade, because it cost him buyers - they needed to get on with their summer and build their rosters without Simmons.

Again, I disagree with people who say he is a “perfect fit” here. He minimizes Towns advantage of forcing a big to defend both our bigs outside, and by packing Simmons defender lower, they clog the lane, hurting Edwards too. I’d also remind people MIN was 25th in 3P% last season. I have never believed PHI can just bring Simmons back, but there aren’t many teams who would trade for him now either. I hope MIN passes on him.

In this case we should build around Simmons strenghts, not weaknesses. He has an unique skillset which can be blessing or problem. For instance, UTA built roster around Gobert. That is not "five-out", that is "four out". Gobert is an excellent roll man, he offers this roll man gravity that we currently dont have. I always say that stretching towards the rim is such an underrated skill, because it compliments stretch the floor concept. For instance, UTA was 1st in 3PA and 4th in 38.9%. Even with Gobert limitations as scorer (no post game, not great at catching the ball and finishing in traffic with advanced moves) Gobert is an integral part of offense.

UTA problem was that Gobert cant defend in space. I knew that Simmons can defend top ballhandlers on perimeter, but I have recently seen Simmons video, where he (240lbs) defends way more bigger players such as Jusuf Nurkic (280lbs) in post. If Simmons can really defend 1 through 5 position it makes him really an ideal defensive fit here in MIN.

It’s interesting that you mentioned Utah, because he is the team I use to make my case.

First, the five out. A couple seasons ago, when MIN had two bigs that could shoot three’s, we played Utah back to back, in a home and away. In the first game, Towns torched the Jazz from outside in a MIN victory. They kept Gobert close to the basket, because he is historically good in that role. In the second game, the Jazz actually had Gobert play KAT man-to-man. Imagine - one of the best defenses in the NBA, specifically designed to drive everyone towards one of the best defensive centers ever - completely changed their entire system! That is the match up problem that opposing coaches face with Towns, if he is paired with a big that can even nominally shoot three’s. If we had a big who can’t shoot like Simmons, Utah defends Towns with a PF to the three point line, and gets to keep Gobert underneath. Rudy has been one of the NBA’s best ever at reducing the number of shots a team takes inside, and reducing opposing FG% on the shots they do take by altering shots. Players like Towns and especially Ant obviously suffer on drives if Gobert is there to meet them in the lane

And I get tired of Simmon’s skillset being labeled “unique,” rather than being called what it is - one with great strengths and giant holes. Yes, shooting 34% on free throws in this years final does make you unique, but the word hides the damage a player can do without the confidence in crucial moments to not simply be hacked and put on the line. On his giant deal, Simmons has value if he can overcome his shooting issues, and won’t avoid dunking a ball. If MIN uniquely qualified to restore his confidence, and finally get him to develop to be even an average shooter?

Yes - except for Simmons glaring holes, he’s a great player. But every opposing coach is going to target the glaring holes.

MIL have jsut won championship building around a player with glaring holes, I am not saying that as player Simmons is on the same level as Greek. However, the architype is similar. All I am trying to say that you can minimize risks and maximize strengths by managing rotations, roster and implementing good coaching.

Here two examples how good coaches/players can adjust

Read on Twitter

?

Read on Twitter

?s=20

[Tomjas]

I also wanted to remind people just how hard it is to build a team around Simmons extreme limitations. I’m not saying he isn’t good at what he does do, but as the Sixers know, he doesn’t fit with a lot of teams. Most teams don’t have the right mix, and those that were close lost the time it takes during the summer to get the right pieces around him. I think Morey made a mistake by asking for the moon and delaying a trade, because it cost him buyers - they needed to get on with their summer and build their rosters without Simmons.

Again, I disagree with people who say he is a “perfect fit” here. He minimizes Towns advantage of forcing a big to defend both our bigs outside, and by packing Simmons defender lower, they clog the lane, hurting Edwards too. I’d also remind people MIN was 25th in 3P% last season. I have never believed PHI can just bring Simmons back, but there aren’t many teams who would trade for him now either. I hope MIN passes on him.

In this case we should build around Simmons strenghts, not weaknesses. He has an unique skillset which can be blessing or problem. For instance, UTA built roster around Gobert. That is not "five-out", that is "four out". Gobert is an excellent roll man, he offers this roll man gravity that we currently dont have. I always say that stretching towards the rim is such an underrated skill, because it compliments stretch the floor concept. For instance, UTA was 1st in 3PA and 4th in 38.9%. Even with Gobert limitations as scorer (no post game, not great at catching the ball and finishing in traffic with advanced moves) Gobert is an integral part of offense.

UTA problem was that Gobert cant defend in space. I knew that Simmons can defend top ballhandlers on perimeter, but I have recently seen Simmons video, where he (240lbs) defends way more bigger players such as Jusuf Nurkic (280lbs) in post. If Simmons can really defend 1 through 5 position it makes him really an ideal defensive fit here in MIN.

It’s interesting that you mentioned Utah, because he is the team I use to make my case.

First, the five out. A couple seasons ago, when MIN had two bigs that could shoot three’s, we played Utah back to back, in a home and away. In the first game, Towns torched the Jazz from outside in a MIN victory. They kept Gobert close to the basket, because he is historically good in that role. In the second game, the Jazz actually had Gobert play KAT man-to-man. Imagine - one of the best defenses in the NBA, specifically designed to drive everyone towards one of the best defensive centers ever - completely changed their entire system! That is the match up problem that opposing coaches face with Towns, if he is paired with a big that can even nominally shoot three’s. If we had a big who can’t shoot like Simmons, Utah defends Towns with a PF to the three point line, and gets to keep Gobert underneath. Rudy has been one of the NBA’s best ever at reducing the number of shots a team takes inside, and reducing opposing FG% on the shots they do take by altering shots. Players like Towns and especially Ant obviously suffer on drives if Gobert is there to meet them in the lane

And I get tired of Simmon’s skillset being labeled “unique,” rather than being called what it is - one with great strengths and giant holes. Yes, shooting 34% on free throws in this years final does make you unique, but the word hides the damage a player can do without the confidence in crucial moments to not simply be hacked and put on the line. On his giant deal, Simmons has value if he can overcome his shooting issues, and won’t avoid dunking a ball. If MIN uniquely qualified to restore his confidence, and finally get him to develop to be even an average shooter?

Yes - except for Simmons glaring holes, he’s a great player. But every opposing coach is going to target the glaring holes.

Minnesota won 23 games last season

Let me repeat this

23 wins

With KAT

With Ant

With D’lo

Simmons wins 50+ EVERY YEAR

He’s top 15 in wins since entering the league

He’s hof in stats already

Some of the comments here are ridiculous

[minimus]

Minnesota won 23 games last season

Let me repeat this

23

With KAT

With Ant

With D’lo

Simmons wins 50+ EVERY YEAR

Sixers lost 126 games out of 164 in the 2 seasons before he turned up

He’s top 15 in wins since entering the league

He’s hof in stats already

Dumbarse takes from wolves fans just make you look ridiculous

Karl-Anthony Towns, D’Angelo Russell, and Anthony Edwards played just over 327 minutes together. Everyone who follows this team knows that they did not even have time to build any real chemistry.

[SO_MONEY]

Finally, as to the “good contract vs bad contract” debate, I’d lean towards bad, but I think it’s close. For big name, big salary players, they often receive slightly positive trade returns, but with the size of the contract, they fall off a cliff quickly and become one of the league’s worst contracts.

First, for even the most ardent Simmons fan, do you think his production could be worth more than $140 mil over the next four years? That’s a lot of money - and it’s guaranteed. The odds that Simmons loses time to injury over that period, or doesn’t improve his shooting, or never regains his confidence, is pretty high, so the contract has a lot of downside, and not much upside. Moreover, players who’d strongest skill is defense never get big salaries - “go to” scorers get paid.

However, the other side of the coin is that a player like Simmons may win you games. Big name/salary players consolidate talent into one of the five roster spots you can get on the floor.if you paid $90 mil for 90 units of production for the rest of your team, spending $10 mil for 10 more units still loses you games if the other team puts up 105 units. That $10 doesn’t help you win. However, if Ben gives you 20 more units for $30 mil, that may be “overpaid” on average, but with the 110 units, you now win that game. This is why borderline superstars get max deals. I just question whether Simmons flaws (irregular fit, lack of growth, confidence, shooting) can all simultaneously exist and we still pay a guy like a superstar.

Stars with holes are the most likely candidates in the NBA to become bad contracts.

Damn, that's good. Right on.

I’m more indifferent in this whole topic and see alot of gray area and unknowns vs. the black and white arguments.

Think of a hot air balloon… they have ropes holding it down that prevent it from rising. Every rope you cut the higher it goes. Just like the stock market - if you were able to eliminate the lows, the trend-line will increase. So…

Team consistency: if you address a teams critical need (defense) with a high level defender, the team performance will likely trend higher.

Team Roster: A puzzle comes in a box - many can appear similar, yet every piece has holes - all the pieces need to fit with other pieces to make a puzzle. Simmons and KAT for example excel in different ways, but would need to fit together and fit the roster (chemistry)

There just is not a known right and wrong at this point… it’s more about value in value out upfront based on opinion … the fit TBD. Once it is, then we can say good or bad contract.

It is a bad contract, there is no gray area on this. His $35mil is inefficiently spent. Period. It doesn't matter the team, their needs or anything. The gage of just how bad it is, is based on these things, a bad contract can be worse for some teams than others, but it doesn't somehow undo the fact it is a bad contract.

Minnesota for instance might be willing to take a bad contract because roster construction and cap limitations on flexibility force their hand, that they can't round out their starting 5 any better without doing so, or they may feel that anyways based on taking a pulse around the league. But without a doubt they are looking at all options, adding marginally lesser players who might not have an affect on player retention or avoidance of, or mitigation of the luxury tax and it's result for on court expectations or the net effect of all options available.


Here is an example, let's say you could go to DEN and offer Prince + expirings + 2FRPs for Gordon, which would probably allow for keeping Beasley and Reid...Are those three players better than Simmons alone as far as overall team performance? I would say they are...but that is the gray area, not that he isn't a bad contract. That amount you would be paying Simmons like it or not has real limiting effects on what you can do in total and why he is a bad contract and why teams are not excited to welcome that into their financials.

[Krapinsky]

I would simply ask you to look at KAT’s shot chart or highlights on YouTube before continuing this. When he isn’t shooting 3s he is often posting up or attacking off the dribble.

I'm not saying he can't do those things, but don't pretend like he demands the ball on the block as he loves playing physical. He doesn't.

Respectfully norseman you are wrong on this one. Kat is a great post player AND a great long range shooter. Fabulous FT shooter and superb rebounder too.

Do you realize Kat put up numbers per game last year of 25 pts, 11 rebs, 5 asts, He shot 49% from the field and 39% from 3. And 86% from the line. Those are close to his career numbers too. He is very consistent and getting better. How many guys put up those kind of numbers? Not many.

I put Kat is similar boat as Vucevic. Sure his offense is great, but if he’s your center then you will have below average defense which lowers the ceiling of what you can be as a team. I think his defense is more of a flaw on our team than Simmons’ shooting is on offense. You can scheme around your player’s offensive weaknesses to find ways to get the ball in the hoop but you can’t scheme around having bad defensive players to prevent the other team from doing so.

I guess by this logic Kat must be a bad contract too right?

[Tomjas]

Damn, that's good. Right on.

I’m more indifferent in this whole topic and see alot of gray area and unknowns vs. the black and white arguments.

Think of a hot air balloon… they have ropes holding it down that prevent it from rising. Every rope you cut the higher it goes. Just like the stock market - if you were able to eliminate the lows, the trend-line will increase. So…

Team consistency: if you address a teams critical need (defense) with a high level defender, the team performance will likely trend higher.

Team Roster: A puzzle comes in a box - many can appear similar, yet every piece has holes - all the pieces need to fit with other pieces to make a puzzle. Simmons and KAT for example excel in different ways, but would need to fit together and fit the roster (chemistry)

There just is not a known right and wrong at this point… it’s more about value in value out upfront based on opinion … the fit TBD. Once it is, then we can say good or bad contract.

It is a bad contract, there is no gray area on this. His $35mil is inefficiently spent. Period. It doesn't matter the team, their needs or anything. The gage of just how bad it is, is based on these things, a bad contract can be worse for some teams than others, but it doesn't somehow undo the fact it is a bad contract.

Minnesota for instance might be willing to take a bad contract because roster construction and cap limitations on flexibility force their hand, that they can't round out their starting 5 any better without doing so, or they may feel that anyways based on taking a pulse around the league. But without a doubt they are looking at all options, adding marginally lesser players who might not have an affect on player retention or avoidance of, or mitigation of the luxury tax and it's result for on court expectations or the net effect of all options available.


Here is an example, let's say you could go to DEN and offer Prince + expirings + 2FRPs for Gordon, which would probably allow for keeping Beasley and Reid...Are those three players better than Simmons alone as far as overall team performance? I would say they are...but that is the gray area, not that he isn't a bad contract. That amount you would be paying Simmons like it or not has real limiting effects on what you can do in total and why he is a bad contract and why teams are not excited to welcome that into their financials.

Minnesota won 23 games last season

23!!!

They are one of the worst teams in the league and that’s beyond dispute

Add Simmons to your core and you win 45+

[shrink]

In this case we should build around Simmons strenghts, not weaknesses. He has an unique skillset which can be blessing or problem. For instance, UTA built roster around Gobert. That is not "five-out", that is "four out". Gobert is an excellent roll man, he offers this roll man gravity that we currently dont have. I always say that stretching towards the rim is such an underrated skill, because it compliments stretch the floor concept. For instance, UTA was 1st in 3PA and 4th in 38.9%. Even with Gobert limitations as scorer (no post game, not great at catching the ball and finishing in traffic with advanced moves) Gobert is an integral part of offense.

UTA problem was that Gobert cant defend in space. I knew that Simmons can defend top ballhandlers on perimeter, but I have recently seen Simmons video, where he (240lbs) defends way more bigger players such as Jusuf Nurkic (280lbs) in post. If Simmons can really defend 1 through 5 position it makes him really an ideal defensive fit here in MIN.

It’s interesting that you mentioned Utah, because he is the team I use to make my case.

First, the five out. A couple seasons ago, when MIN had two bigs that could shoot three’s, we played Utah back to back, in a home and away. In the first game, Towns torched the Jazz from outside in a MIN victory. They kept Gobert close to the basket, because he is historically good in that role. In the second game, the Jazz actually had Gobert play KAT man-to-man. Imagine - one of the best defenses in the NBA, specifically designed to drive everyone towards one of the best defensive centers ever - completely changed their entire system! That is the match up problem that opposing coaches face with Towns, if he is paired with a big that can even nominally shoot three’s. If we had a big who can’t shoot like Simmons, Utah defends Towns with a PF to the three point line, and gets to keep Gobert underneath. Rudy has been one of the NBA’s best ever at reducing the number of shots a team takes inside, and reducing opposing FG% on the shots they do take by altering shots. Players like Towns and especially Ant obviously suffer on drives if Gobert is there to meet them in the lane

And I get tired of Simmon’s skillset being labeled “unique,” rather than being called what it is - one with great strengths and giant holes. Yes, shooting 34% on free throws in this years final does make you unique, but the word hides the damage a player can do without the confidence in crucial moments to not simply be hacked and put on the line. On his giant deal, Simmons has value if he can overcome his shooting issues, and won’t avoid dunking a ball. If MIN uniquely qualified to restore his confidence, and finally get him to develop to be even an average shooter?

Yes - except for Simmons glaring holes, he’s a great player. But every opposing coach is going to target the glaring holes.

Minnesota won 23 games last season

Let me repeat this

23 wins

With KAT

With Ant

With D’lo

Simmons wins 50+ EVERY YEAR

He’s top 15 in wins since entering the league

He’s hof in stats already

Some of the comments here are ridiculous

Look, I have to avoid the trade board to avoid the posts from some of you homer, insulting PHI fans,

You’ve posted seven times on the Minnesota board, with your same drivel.

Maybe it’s time you went back to your own board, and you and your other homer fans can Pat each other on the back, comforting each other on how valuable Simmons is (despite all evidence of so many team rejecting you), and insult the other teams together?

[TheProdigy]

In this case we should build around Simmons strenghts, not weaknesses. He has an unique skillset which can be blessing or problem. For instance, UTA built roster around Gobert. That is not "five-out", that is "four out". Gobert is an excellent roll man, he offers this roll man gravity that we currently dont have. I always say that stretching towards the rim is such an underrated skill, because it compliments stretch the floor concept. For instance, UTA was 1st in 3PA and 4th in 38.9%. Even with Gobert limitations as scorer (no post game, not great at catching the ball and finishing in traffic with advanced moves) Gobert is an integral part of offense.

UTA problem was that Gobert cant defend in space. I knew that Simmons can defend top ballhandlers on perimeter, but I have recently seen Simmons video, where he (240lbs) defends way more bigger players such as Jusuf Nurkic (280lbs) in post. If Simmons can really defend 1 through 5 position it makes him really an ideal defensive fit here in MIN.

It’s interesting that you mentioned Utah, because he is the team I use to make my case.

First, the five out. A couple seasons ago, when MIN had two bigs that could shoot three’s, we played Utah back to back, in a home and away. In the first game, Towns torched the Jazz from outside in a MIN victory. They kept Gobert close to the basket, because he is historically good in that role. In the second game, the Jazz actually had Gobert play KAT man-to-man. Imagine - one of the best defenses in the NBA, specifically designed to drive everyone towards one of the best defensive centers ever - completely changed their entire system! That is the match up problem that opposing coaches face with Towns, if he is paired with a big that can even nominally shoot three’s. If we had a big who can’t shoot like Simmons, Utah defends Towns with a PF to the three point line, and gets to keep Gobert underneath. Rudy has been one of the NBA’s best ever at reducing the number of shots a team takes inside, and reducing opposing FG% on the shots they do take by altering shots. Players like Towns and especially Ant obviously suffer on drives if Gobert is there to meet them in the lane

And I get tired of Simmon’s skillset being labeled “unique,” rather than being called what it is - one with great strengths and giant holes. Yes, shooting 34% on free throws in this years final does make you unique, but the word hides the damage a player can do without the confidence in crucial moments to not simply be hacked and put on the line. On his giant deal, Simmons has value if he can overcome his shooting issues, and won’t avoid dunking a ball. If MIN uniquely qualified to restore his confidence, and finally get him to develop to be even an average shooter?

Yes - except for Simmons glaring holes, he’s a great player. But every opposing coach is going to target the glaring holes.

Minnesota won 23 games last season

Let me repeat this

23 wins

With KAT

With Ant

With D’lo

Simmons wins 50+ EVERY YEAR

He’s top 15 in wins since entering the league

He’s hof in stats already

Some of the comments here are ridiculous

Hall of Fame stats? LMAO. The only person with ridiculous comments here is you. Not to mention his stats are actually trending downwards even though he's still only 25 years old.

[shrink]

Hall of Fame stats? LMAO. The only person with ridiculous comments here is you. Not to mention his stats are actually trending downwards even though he's still only 25 years old.

Exactly.

And stuff like, “he should be the defensive player of the year!” over Gobert, who’s won 3 of the last 4.

Or, “we should get a trade package back greater than Harden because Simmons has four years on his deal!” neglecting Harden was league MVP, and 2nd place four times.

And just try to get them to talk about any flaws in Simmons! Totally ignore all of those. Or how he’s trending now. Or his playoff performances. Ad Infinitum.

And of course, these guys never talked about how low the value of Simmons was when PHI was losing all those games for several years. The team, with Embiid, wins some regular season games in the East, and suddenly Simmons is so highly valuable!

Hypocritical homers, that are just disrupting other people’s boards because peoplet on neutral forums are tired of listening to their one-sided takes. And they have the gall to say OTHER posters are ridiculous!

I thought the MIN posters were having a pretty good, mature discussion here, even when we have differing opinions - before he intruded. I suspect he posted like this because he was shocked that us wretched Timberwolves fans wouldn’t all see Simmons as some messiah, like he and his fanboys do.

[IceManBK1]

Final offer. Beasley+Beverly+McDaniels+3 1st..Sad to give up McDaniels. But Simmons is superstar level player even w/o jumps hot. And he's still 25 yrs old. There will be room for improvement. Dlo, ant, simmons, towns is a lethal big 4.

[SO_MONEY]

I’m more indifferent in this whole topic and see alot of gray area and unknowns vs. the black and white arguments.

Think of a hot air balloon… they have ropes holding it down that prevent it from rising. Every rope you cut the higher it goes. Just like the stock market - if you were able to eliminate the lows, the trend-line will increase. So…

Team consistency: if you address a teams critical need (defense) with a high level defender, the team performance will likely trend higher.

Team Roster: A puzzle comes in a box - many can appear similar, yet every piece has holes - all the pieces need to fit with other pieces to make a puzzle. Simmons and KAT for example excel in different ways, but would need to fit together and fit the roster (chemistry)

There just is not a known right and wrong at this point… it’s more about value in value out upfront based on opinion … the fit TBD. Once it is, then we can say good or bad contract.

It is a bad contract, there is no gray area on this. His $35mil is inefficiently spent. Period. It doesn't matter the team, their needs or anything. The gage of just how bad it is, is based on these things, a bad contract can be worse for some teams than others, but it doesn't somehow undo the fact it is a bad contract.

Minnesota for instance might be willing to take a bad contract because roster construction and cap limitations on flexibility force their hand, that they can't round out their starting 5 any better without doing so, or they may feel that anyways based on taking a pulse around the league. But without a doubt they are looking at all options, adding marginally lesser players who might not have an affect on player retention or avoidance of, or mitigation of the luxury tax and it's result for on court expectations or the net effect of all options available.


Here is an example, let's say you could go to DEN and offer Prince + expirings + 2FRPs for Gordon, which would probably allow for keeping Beasley and Reid...Are those three players better than Simmons alone as far as overall team performance? I would say they are...but that is the gray area, not that he isn't a bad contract. That amount you would be paying Simmons like it or not has real limiting effects on what you can do in total and why he is a bad contract and why teams are not excited to welcome that into their financials.

Minnesota won 23 games last season

23!!!

They are one of the worst teams in the league and that’s beyond dispute

Add Simmons to your core and you win 45+

You didn't respond to anything I said. When people do this and have conversations as they want them to play out, it reminds me of my grandmother when she developed dementia.

[NebWolvesFan]

Final offer. Beasley+Beverly+McDaniels+3 1st..Sad to give up McDaniels. But Simmons is superstar level player even w/o jumps hot. And he's still 25 yrs old. There will be room for improvement. Dlo, ant, simmons, towns is a lethal big 4.

That's way too much. For me, It's either Russell + first for Simmons or it's Beasley + Prince + first for Simmons or just forget it. An unprotected Minnesota first is gold. If Philly takes either of the two deals I offered, Minnesota still enters the season with questions marks -

Who plays PG? Does Minnesota have the weakest bench in the league with Beasley and Prince gone? If Kat misses some games, and Simmons struggles to shoot, Minnesota could win only 30 games next year. That means Philly gets a top-6 pick, maybe higher. I'm not a fan of trading a top-6 pick for a player that has to leave the floor at the end of close games because he can't make a free throw.

For me, Simmons is only worth a 2022 draft pick. He was really bad in the last games he played. Was it a fluke? Or was it his new normal? I'm not sending out multiple picks to find out.

[jpatrick]

Final offer. Beasley+Beverly+McDaniels+3 1st..Sad to give up McDaniels. But Simmons is superstar level player even w/o jumps hot. And he's still 25 yrs old. There will be room for improvement. Dlo, ant, simmons, towns is a lethal big 4.

Despite what others will say about it, I bet Rosas' offer is probably pretty close to this. Way too much smoke to think we're not making a big offer, mostly consisting of future picks.

I'm not sure I do this though. I see Pat Bev as a neutral asset, but one I'd like to keep. I see Beasley as a positive asset, although depressed due to his jail time. And I love McDaniels.

I'd much rather do Beasley, Prince, Bolmaro, 2 FRPs, and 2 swaps. But I think Rosas is willing to offer everyone not named Towns, Russell, and Edwards. The extent of the Finch/Rosas love affair with McDaniels could be genuine, but it also could be an attempt to pump up his value.

[SO_MONEY]

Final offer. Beasley+Beverly+McDaniels+3 1st..Sad to give up McDaniels. But Simmons is superstar level player even w/o jumps hot. And he's still 25 yrs old. There will be room for improvement. Dlo, ant, simmons, towns is a lethal big 4.

Despite what others will say about it, I bet Rosas' offer is probably pretty close to this. Way too much smoke to think we're not making a big offer, mostly consisting of future picks.

I'm not sure I do this though. I see Pat Bev as a neutral asset, but one I'd like to keep. I see Beasley as a positive asset, although depressed due to his jail time. And I love McDaniels.

I'd much rather do Beasley, Prince, Bolmaro, 2 FRPs, and 2 swaps. But I think Rosas is willing to offer everyone not named Towns, Russell, and Edwards. The extent of the Finch/Rosas love affair with McDaniels could be genuine, but it also could be an attempt to pump up his value.

The smoke indicates his trade value is nowhere near that.