The Official Franz Wagner Thread

[SOUL]

(Warrior fan here).

Most people watching summer league thought Kuminga "looked" more impressive than Moody as an overall prospect.

Moody was obviously a lot more consistent and under control. He was a guy who obviously was letting the game come to him. But his upside isn't all that great IMO. He has potential as a 2 way player and excellent shooter, but he's not overly big (though he does have long arms) or athletic. He doesn't scream lockdown defender and he's not creative or explosive with the dribble. He's a guy with a high probability of being a rotation player in the league for 10+ years, but I don't envision all-star. Probably a Wes Matthews in his prime is around his peak.

What stood out about Kuminga was that he was aggressive and very physical. He was initiating and making things happen. He was the very opposite of passive. He was playing physically and finishing at the basket THROUGH CONTACT as an 18 year old vs. other pros. He wasn't efficient shooting the ball, but he also had a Steph Curry like usage rate, which he obviously isn't going to have in the regular season as a rookie on a team that actually has Curry. He also displayed much better passing ability than he was originally given credit for and also ability as a lockdown defender that I don't think Moody does.

He's rough around the edges and there are a lot of what ifs with him, just as there are with most all guys outside the top 5. Still displayed more than enough ability as an 18 year old to justify his selection in the middle of the lottery, IMO.

Yeah, that's why I think Moody will get a lot more reps early on and be trusted more as a rookie. Time will tell if he turns out to be better than Kuminga, but I think Kuminga has shown a good amount of skill. People forget most rookies are very inefficient and especially in SL. I won't hold it against him but since he wasn't very efficient in G-League as well, it may become an issue at some point.

But yeah, I think a point of emphasis should be making the right plays when he does get minutes this year but also being held accountable. Let him play his game and be everywhere on the court but still provide what the Warriors need which is the energy, driving, defense, etc.

It'll be interesting to see him develop for sure. Like I said, it's a weird team for him to be on but I actually think it will help him immensely because he will see how guys like Dray, Curry, Klay work and they will be able to guide him.

[dc]

I thought Kuminga looked less wild than I thought he would. Still inefficient, but those spectacular plays definitely came more than 1 out of 10 times. He's active out there which is a good sign, still makes a lot of mistakes but a lot of rooks will/do.

I do think once the season starts he's going to be pulled very quickly if he tries a lot of crazy stuff and that Moody will get a lot more minutes early on, but he's in a good place to "settle in". I'd rather have a situation of calming someone down (Kuminga) than trying to hype them up (Wiseman).

(Warrior fan here).

Most people watching summer league thought Kuminga "looked" more impressive than Moody as an overall prospect.

Moody was obviously a lot more consistent and under control. He was a guy who obviously was letting the game come to him. But his upside isn't all that great IMO. He has potential as a 2 way player and excellent shooter, but he's not overly big (though he does have long arms) or athletic. He doesn't scream lockdown defender and he's not creative or explosive with the dribble. He's a guy with a high probability of being a rotation player in the league for 10+ years, but I don't envision all-star. Probably a Wes Matthews in his prime is around his peak.

What stood out about Kuminga was that he was aggressive and very physical. He was initiating and making things happen. He was the very opposite of passive. He was playing physically and finishing at the basket THROUGH CONTACT as an 18 year old vs. other pros. He wasn't efficient shooting the ball, but he also had a Steph Curry like usage rate, which he obviously isn't going to have in the regular season as a rookie on a team that actually has Curry. He also displayed much better passing ability than he was originally given credit for and also ability as a lockdown defender that I don't think Moody does.

He's rough around the edges and there are a lot of what ifs with him, just as there are with most all guys outside the top 5. Still displayed more than enough ability as an 18 year old to justify his selection in the middle of the lottery, IMO.

He had to finish tough looks through contact becouse he couldnt generate easy looks. I only watched highlights but how many open looks he created in half court offense ? 3 ? Most of his baskets were in transition. He was able to be physical becouse he has grown mans body unlike most of his competition.
It will be hard for him to carve a role in your rotation. He cant shoot, he loses the ball a lot. He will propably lose a lot of value when the season begins.

Guys who can finish through contact are going to do just that. It takes both balance and strength and not a lot of guys have thst.. As it is now, he's bigger and stronger than the majority of wings in the NBA, and he's yet to turn 19 and has the look of a kid still growing into his body.

He also displayed step throughs, cross overs, up and unders and finger rolls. It wasn't all just power. Biggest highlight of his SL was crossing a guy over at the 3 point line with a hesitation near the end of the quarter.

And whatever he was doing in SL, he won't be asked to do that in the regular season. He'll have vets and a few future HOFers to create space and open looks for him. that. Kid is a 6'7" man child who is likely already one of the strongest, most athletic wings in the league and he hasn't turned 19 yet. Teams aren't oblivious to the type of freak he is for his age. He'll have plenty of value. If the Warriors are looking to trade for a vet, Kuminga is the first thing teams would ask for.

[dc]

I thought Kuminga looked less wild than I thought he would. Still inefficient, but those spectacular plays definitely came more than 1 out of 10 times. He's active out there which is a good sign, still makes a lot of mistakes but a lot of rooks will/do.

I do think once the season starts he's going to be pulled very quickly if he tries a lot of crazy stuff and that Moody will get a lot more minutes early on, but he's in a good place to "settle in". I'd rather have a situation of calming someone down (Kuminga) than trying to hype them up (Wiseman).

(Warrior fan here).

Most people watching summer league thought Kuminga "looked" more impressive than Moody as an overall prospect.

Moody was obviously a lot more consistent and under control. He was a guy who obviously was letting the game come to him. But his upside isn't all that great IMO. He has potential as a 2 way player and excellent shooter, but he's not overly big (though he does have long arms) or athletic. He doesn't scream lockdown defender and he's not creative or explosive with the dribble. He's a guy with a high probability of being a rotation player in the league for 10+ years, but I don't envision all-star. Probably a Wes Matthews in his prime is around his peak.

What stood out about Kuminga was that he was aggressive and very physical. He was initiating and making things happen. He was the very opposite of passive. He was playing physically and finishing at the basket THROUGH CONTACT as an 18 year old vs. other pros. He wasn't efficient shooting the ball, but he also had a Steph Curry like usage rate, which he obviously isn't going to have in the regular season as a rookie on a team that actually has Curry. He also displayed much better passing ability than he was originally given credit for and also ability as a lockdown defender that I don't think Moody does.

He's rough around the edges and there are a lot of what ifs with him, just as there are with most all guys outside the top 5. Still displayed more than enough ability as an 18 year old to justify his selection in the middle of the lottery, IMO.

He had to finish tough looks through contact becouse he couldnt generate easy looks. I only watched highlights but how many open looks he created in half court offense ? 3 ? Most of his baskets were in transition. He was able to be physical becouse he has grown mans body unlike most of his competition.
It will be hard for him to carve a role in your rotation. He cant shoot, he loses the ball a lot. He will propably lose a lot of value when the season begins.

Guys who can finish through contact are going to do just that. It takes both balance and strength and not a lot of guys have that combo. As it is now, he's stronger than the majority of wings in the NBA, and he's yet to turn 19 and has the look of a kid still growing into his body.

He also displayed step throughs, cross overs, up and unders and finger rolls. It wasn't all just power. Biggest highlight of his SL was crossing a guy over at the 3 point line with a hesitation near the end of the quarter.

And whatever he was doing in SL, he won't be asked to do that in the regular season. He'll have vets and a few future HOFers to create space and open looks for him. that. Kid is a 6'7" man child who is likely already one of the strongest, most athletic wings in the league and he hasn't turned 19 yet. Teams aren't oblivious to the type of freak he is for his age. He'll have plenty of value. If the Warriors are looking to trade for a vet, Kuminga is the first thing teams would ask for.

Just because a 19 year old isn't in the rotation doesn't mean he loses value. See O'Neal, Jermaine. The guy barely got playing time in Portland but was valued enough to get traded for a very good, well established player.

[zaymon]

(Warrior fan here).

Most people watching summer league thought Kuminga "looked" more impressive than Moody as an overall prospect.

Moody was obviously a lot more consistent and under control. He was a guy who obviously was letting the game come to him. But his upside isn't all that great IMO. He has potential as a 2 way player and excellent shooter, but he's not overly big (though he does have long arms) or athletic. He doesn't scream lockdown defender and he's not creative or explosive with the dribble. He's a guy with a high probability of being a rotation player in the league for 10+ years, but I don't envision all-star. Probably a Wes Matthews in his prime is around his peak.

What stood out about Kuminga was that he was aggressive and very physical. He was initiating and making things happen. He was the very opposite of passive. He was playing physically and finishing at the basket THROUGH CONTACT as an 18 year old vs. other pros. He wasn't efficient shooting the ball, but he also had a Steph Curry like usage rate, which he obviously isn't going to have in the regular season as a rookie on a team that actually has Curry. He also displayed much better passing ability than he was originally given credit for and also ability as a lockdown defender that I don't think Moody does.

He's rough around the edges and there are a lot of what ifs with him, just as there are with most all guys outside the top 5. Still displayed more than enough ability as an 18 year old to justify his selection in the middle of the lottery, IMO.

He had to finish tough looks through contact becouse he couldnt generate easy looks. I only watched highlights but how many open looks he created in half court offense ? 3 ? Most of his baskets were in transition. He was able to be physical becouse he has grown mans body unlike most of his competition.
It will be hard for him to carve a role in your rotation. He cant shoot, he loses the ball a lot. He will propably lose a lot of value when the season begins.

Guys who can finish through contact are going to do just that. It takes both balance and strength and not a lot of guys have that combo. As it is now, he's stronger than the majority of wings in the NBA, and he's yet to turn 19 and has the look of a kid still growing into his body.

He also displayed step throughs, cross overs, up and unders and finger rolls. It wasn't all just power. Biggest highlight of his SL was crossing a guy over at the 3 point line with a hesitation near the end of the quarter.

And whatever he was doing in SL, he won't be asked to do that in the regular season. He'll have vets and a few future HOFers to create space and open looks for him. that. Kid is a 6'7" man child who is likely already one of the strongest, most athletic wings in the league and he hasn't turned 19 yet. Teams aren't oblivious to the type of freak he is for his age. He'll have plenty of value. If the Warriors are looking to trade for a vet, Kuminga is the first thing teams would ask for.

Just because a 19 year old isn't in the rotation doesn't mean he loses value. See O'Neal, Jermaine. The guy barely got playing time in Portland but was valued enough to get traded for a very good, well established player.

I think you are projecting a lot of stuff and its always risky, especially if flashes are so rare. That play you mentioned was one of the 3 plays i described. It was against Jaylen Hoard undrafted in 2019 and not spectacular in g league so far. Also it was the only time he could create anything on his own in this game.
Finishing through contact is good skill, but you have to have ball in your hands to use it. Nobody will give the ball to player who cant shoot, cant create efficient looks and cant make good decisions with the ball. How useful would be finishing through contact for Stanley Johnson or Derrick Williams ?
Kuminga will have to make Kawhi like development progression without even base skills Leonard had when coming into the league- quick first step and pull up shooting.

[pepe1991]

I remember Gordon having awful game, than scoring acrobatic layup while shooting 2-9 FG and for two days only topic was how amazing he is at finishing through contact.

People project what they want to see. Most of the time it's missleading.

Kuminga will body you up and try to go through you, and sure, in SL it might work, hell, you can have 7 fouls and still play, but in nba he will need to do more than just try to run you over.

[dc]

Stanley Johnson is around a 6’5”-6’6” wing who isn’t the same caliber athlete as Kuminga. Derrick Williams was a straight line run/jump type athlete who could dunk when he didn’t have an obstacle in front of him. He couldn’t make that extra move which Kuminga has displayed he can. Williams was never considered a wing to begin with.

As for Gordon, I wouldn’t be terribly upset if for a middle the lottery pick, that’s the level of player Kuminga turned into, limitations and all. He still got you guys back some value in trade and he was useful to Denver as the #4 option before Murray went down.

[zaymon]

Stanley Johnson is around a 6’5”-6’6” wing who isn’t the same caliber athlete as Kuminga. Derrick Williams was a straight line run/jump type athlete who could dunk when he didn’t have an obstacle in front of him. He couldn’t make that extra move which Kuminga has displayed he can. Williams was never considered a wing to begin with.

As for Gordon, I wouldn’t be terribly upset if for a middle the lottery pick, that’s the level of player Kuminga turned into, limitations and all. He still got you guys back some value in trade and he was useful to Denver as the #4 option before Murray went down.

If Kuminga is so much bigger, more skilled and athletic why he had worse g league and summer league stats than Johnson and comparable to Derrick Williams. He also had veteran teams in both g and summer leagues who made it easier for him.
Gordon is fine player but he was also much better defender to stay on the floor.
I wish him all the best, but its not looking pretty right now.

[basketballRob]

(Warrior fan here).

Most people watching summer league thought Kuminga "looked" more impressive than Moody as an overall prospect.

Moody was obviously a lot more consistent and under control. He was a guy who obviously was letting the game come to him. But his upside isn't all that great IMO. He has potential as a 2 way player and excellent shooter, but he's not overly big (though he does have long arms) or athletic. He doesn't scream lockdown defender and he's not creative or explosive with the dribble. He's a guy with a high probability of being a rotation player in the league for 10+ years, but I don't envision all-star. Probably a Wes Matthews in his prime is around his peak.

What stood out about Kuminga was that he was aggressive and very physical. He was initiating and making things happen. He was the very opposite of passive. He was playing physically and finishing at the basket THROUGH CONTACT as an 18 year old vs. other pros. He wasn't efficient shooting the ball, but he also had a Steph Curry like usage rate, which he obviously isn't going to have in the regular season as a rookie on a team that actually has Curry. He also displayed much better passing ability than he was originally given credit for and also ability as a lockdown defender that I don't think Moody does.

He's rough around the edges and there are a lot of what ifs with him, just as there are with most all guys outside the top 5. Still displayed more than enough ability as an 18 year old to justify his selection in the middle of the lottery, IMO.

He had to finish tough looks through contact becouse he couldnt generate easy looks. I only watched highlights but how many open looks he created in half court offense ? 3 ? Most of his baskets were in transition. He was able to be physical becouse he has grown mans body unlike most of his competition.
It will be hard for him to carve a role in your rotation. He cant shoot, he loses the ball a lot. He will propably lose a lot of value when the season begins.

Guys who can finish through contact are going to do just that. It takes both balance and strength and not a lot of guys have thst.. As it is now, he's bigger and stronger than the majority of wings in the NBA, and he's yet to turn 19 and has the look of a kid still growing into his body.

He also displayed step throughs, cross overs, up and unders and finger rolls. It wasn't all just power. Biggest highlight of his SL was crossing a guy over at the 3 point line with a hesitation near the end of the quarter.

And whatever he was doing in SL, he won't be asked to do that in the regular season. He'll have vets and a few future HOFers to create space and open looks for him. that. Kid is a 6'7" man child who is likely already one of the strongest, most athletic wings in the league and he hasn't turned 19 yet. Teams aren't oblivious to the type of freak he is for his age. He'll have plenty of value. If the Warriors are looking to trade for a vet, Kuminga is the first thing teams would ask for.

He's going to be really good. Edwards put up similar shooting stats at the beginning of last season, at the same age. He got better as the season went on. 3 years from now Kuminga might be the best player out of this draft.

Listen to most of the pundits, they almost unanimously say Kuminga is going to be really good. That's what they said about a same aged Giannis his rookie season, when he averaged 6 pts and 4 rebs.





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[dc]

Stanley Johnson is around a 6’5”-6’6” wing who isn’t the same caliber athlete as Kuminga. Derrick Williams was a straight line run/jump type athlete who could dunk when he didn’t have an obstacle in front of him. He couldn’t make that extra move which Kuminga has displayed he can. Williams was never considered a wing to begin with.

As for Gordon, I wouldn’t be terribly upset if for a middle the lottery pick, that’s the level of player Kuminga turned into, limitations and all. He still got you guys back some value in trade and he was useful to Denver as the #4 option before Murray went down.

If Kuminga is so much bigger, more skilled and athletic why he had worse g league and summer league stats than Johnson and comparable to Derrick Williams. He also had veteran teams in both g and summer leagues who made it easier for him.
Gordon is fine player but he was also much better defender to stay on the floor.
I wish him all the best, but its not looking pretty right now.

I dunno. Why are any of these SL players considered NBA prospects at all when exactly none of them had as good of a SL as Anthony Randolph, who found his way out of the NBA within a few years?

SL is about the eye test, not a lesson in PER or other stats. Here is what ESPN's Mike Schmitz thought about Kuminga's SL performance.

"While it has always been about consistency and sustainability with Kuminga, he's looking like a steal for the Golden State Warriors at No. 7," Schmitz wrote.

"What Kuminga showed as a downhill driver, shot-creator, occasional shotmaker and versatile defender left more of an impression on me than him needing 18 shots to score 18 points consistently," Schmitz wrote.

So that's what one of ESPN's bball writers thought of his SL, fully taking into account that he wasn't an efficient scorer. He watched the game and observed the aspects of Kuminga's game that he feels translates to the NBA. In no way am I saying Schmitz is the perfect prognosticator and that he's a sure fire steal for the Warriors; I'm just saying that those were the impressions someone got from him after watching his games and not just the boxscore.

[Skybox]

I'm buying on Kuminga. I'm very happy to have Franz but if we found Kuminga at 8, it would have been a steal. There's certainly risk that skills and decision-making may not come but he's got the stuff you can't teach. That comfort with physicality and running people over is a lot easier to tone down than it is to develop in a soft player. If he stays in GSW, he'll be immediately humbled - again, easier to take an Alpha and teach him the team game than to try to give a guy a killer instinct. Physically, he's already Kawhi Jr. and he's a child. I think GSW could keep him, limit his role, make him play D and he'll contribute NOW.

On the other hand, if there's a trade for a star, I agree that a building team will demand Kuminga and GSW is in it to win it all ASAP.

[basketballRob]

Kuminga would've been a top 3 pick in nearly every other draft. What I saw in SL only strengthened my opinion that Kuminga will be much better than Barnes.

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[Skybox]

I'm buying on Kuminga. I'm very happy to have Franz but if we found Kuminga at 8, it would have been a steal. There's certainly risk that skills and decision-making may not come but he's got the stuff you can't teach. That comfort with physicality and running people over is a lot easier to tone down than it is to develop in a soft player. If he stays in GSW, he'll be immediately humbled - again, easier to take an Alpha and teach him the team game than to try to give a guy a killer instinct. Physically, he's already Kawhi Jr. and he's a child. I think GSW could keep him, limit his role, make him play D and he'll contribute NOW.

Along the same lines, the biggest danger we have with Suggs and Wagner is that there's really no-one on the team already who can tell them to "shut the F up and..." with any credibility. Same concern with Jalen Green in HOU. Luckily, all indications are that our rookies won't need that. In fact, my bet is that Suggs IS the veteran leader from Day 1.

He's far from the best player on the team, but I have no doubt that Robin Lopez will have no trouble getting scary on a kid if they don't stay in their lane. He'll also be class clown in the locker room and child psychologist...He was a great pickup, IMO.

[Knightro]

And whatever he was doing in SL, he won't be asked to do that in the regular season. He'll have vets and a few future HOFers to create space and open looks for him. that. Kid is a 6'7" man child who is likely already one of the strongest, most athletic wings in the league and he hasn't turned 19 yet. Teams aren't oblivious to the type of freak he is for his age. He'll have plenty of value. If the Warriors are looking to trade for a vet, Kuminga is the first thing teams would ask for.

I think this works both ways though.

The Warriors are going to ask a teenager who for the last 4+ years has played like he was the best player on his team, with a sky high usage and basically unlimited rope to make and play through mistakes.

GSW obviously has deep playoff run aspirations with Klay hopefully back healthy, so that's all going away for Kuminga.

There's no scenario really where he's going to be afforded the opportunity to play like he did in HS, G-League and Summer League with the Warriors any time soon.

So really there's a lot of hoping and projecting that a kid who's never shown the things you really need to thrive in a low usage role - shooting and turnover avoidance being the two big ones - will be able to adapt and thrive in a totally different role than he's ever been asked to play in his life.

It will be interesting to watch play out for sure.

[OrlChamps2030]

Stanley Johnson is around a 6’5”-6’6” wing who isn’t the same caliber athlete as Kuminga. Derrick Williams was a straight line run/jump type athlete who could dunk when he didn’t have an obstacle in front of him. He couldn’t make that extra move which Kuminga has displayed he can. Williams was never considered a wing to begin with.

As for Gordon, I wouldn’t be terribly upset if for a middle the lottery pick, that’s the level of player Kuminga turned into, limitations and all. He still got you guys back some value in trade and he was useful to Denver as the #4 option before Murray went down.

If Kuminga is so much bigger, more skilled and athletic why he had worse g league and summer league stats than Johnson and comparable to Derrick Williams. He also had veteran teams in both g and summer leagues who made it easier for him.
Gordon is fine player but he was also much better defender to stay on the floor.
I wish him all the best, but its not looking pretty right now.

I mean.. Stanley Johnson had a better summer league than Giannis did. I would consider Giannis bigger and more skilled than Stanley Johnson.


I think a big part of the summer league evaluation is the eye test and projection. There's way too much noise and different variables in summer league to weigh stats the same as NBA stats. Kuminga has that kind of size/athleticism/physicality you can't teach. There will be some growing pains along the way, and I'm not completely sure how his development will be handled on a team with such high aspirations, but he's a nice young prospect for sure.

Not many (if any) 18/19 year old shot creating wings hit the league as efficient players. Kuminga actually looks ahead of schedule to me. I think he will turn out to be a nice pick for the warriors

[Magic_Kingdom]

I don't think you can look at an 18-year-old's efficiency rating in his first summer league and use that as a tool to judge how good he will be. It will be a few years before he has the ball in his hands in a real NBA game as much as he did in SL where he was the best player on the team.

I don't see any comparison to Aaron Gordon at all. While Gordon made the occasional spectacular play in his first year, he wasn't even close to this good at getting to the basket when he needed to. In fact if Gordon would've played more bully-ball like Kuminga does, he probably would've been a much better player. And Gordon's jumper looked broken coming out of Arizona, I don't see that with Kuminga. His shooting percentages weren't very high but again, summer league rookie 18-year-old. Guys like Gordon, Stanley Johnson, Derrick Williams, they never seemed to understand what their games were. They don't seem comfortable in their own skin, so to speak. Kuminga's game is on full display. Of course he'll have to hone it and get some things under control etc., etc., but Golden State got a good player at #7.

[sChOlaRlY_Magi]

How the eff does a thread about Wagner have 2+ pages of back and forth on Kuminga?...

[Skybox]

How the eff does a thread about Wagner have 2+ pages of back and forth on Kuminga?...

Good point but you can probably also find a Vucevic debate on EVERY Magic thread

[tooler]

Along the same lines, the biggest danger we have with Suggs and Wagner is that there's really no-one on the team already who can tell them to "shut the F up and..." with any credibility. Same concern with Jalen Green in HOU. Luckily, all indications are that our rookies won't need that. In fact, my bet is that Suggs IS the veteran leader from Day 1.

He's far from the best player on the team, but I have no doubt that Robin Lopez will have no trouble getting scary on a kid if they don't stay in their lane. He'll also be class clown in the locker room and child psychologist...He was a great pickup, IMO.

The coach will tell Suggs, and if Suggs is really the leader we think he is, he'll realize the wisdom he's hearing and adjust accordingly. All to be determined of course.

How the eff does a thread about Wagner have 2+ pages of back and forth on Kuminga?...

Good point but you can probably also find a Vucevic debate on EVERY Magic thread

At least Vucevic was on the team. I couldn't care less about Barnes and Kuminga now that some other team drafted them.

[thelead]

How the eff does a thread about Wagner have 2+ pages of back and forth on Kuminga?...

Yeah, I don't get it either considering he wasn't on the board at 8 anyway. Suggs was the clear choice at 5 and Kuminga was taken at 7. This conversation should be happening on the OKC board. There's a good debate to have between Giddy and Kuminga.

[sChOlaRlY_Magi]

How the eff does a thread about Wagner have 2+ pages of back and forth on Kuminga?...

Yeah, I don't get it either considering he wasn't on the board at 8 anyway. Suggs was the clear choice at 5 and Kuminga was taken at 7. This conversation should be happening on the OKC board. There's a good debate to have between Giddy and Kuminga.

Exactly! And Kuminga is no Luka, Trae, or he'll, even Green or Suggs from this draft!

Just my opinion, though...