Trade Talk (Part Seven)

[shrink]

Final offer. Beasley+Beverly+McDaniels+3 1st..Sad to give up McDaniels. But Simmons is superstar level player even w/o jumps hot. And he's still 25 yrs old. There will be room for improvement. Dlo, ant, simmons, towns is a lethal big 4.

That's way too much. For me, It's either Russell + first for Simmons or it's Beasley + Prince + first for Simmons or just forget it. An unprotected Minnesota first is gold. If Philly takes either of the two deals I offered, Minnesota still enters the season with questions marks.

I agree. Who exactly is Rosas bidding against at this point? Simmons doesn’t fit most teams. Five teams that initially inquired have all walked away very publicly, and made other plans this offseason.

Does anyone think PHI is really going to just start the season with Simmons? Embiid threw him under the bus, Rivers didn’t support him, the PHI fans and media are out for blood, he refuses to answer texts from players or the team, and he sent Klutch in already to get out. Does anyone think Simmons is actually going to get his confidence back there, improve his shooting, or not play significantly worse if forced to play for the Sixers? Do the Sixers really want him bringing down Embiid and the rest of the team, hurting team chemistry?

I hope we don’t get him. After their behavior over the last month, I want to see those Sixers fans choke on him.

[jpatrick]

Final offer. Beasley+Beverly+McDaniels+3 1st..Sad to give up McDaniels. But Simmons is superstar level player even w/o jumps hot. And he's still 25 yrs old. There will be room for improvement. Dlo, ant, simmons, towns is a lethal big 4.

Despite what others will say about it, I bet Rosas' offer is probably pretty close to this. Way too much smoke to think we're not making a big offer, mostly consisting of future picks.

I'm not sure I do this though. I see Pat Bev as a neutral asset, but one I'd like to keep. I see Beasley as a positive asset, although depressed due to his jail time. And I love McDaniels.

I'd much rather do Beasley, Prince, Bolmaro, 2 FRPs, and 2 swaps. But I think Rosas is willing to offer everyone not named Towns, Russell, and Edwards. The extent of the Finch/Rosas love affair with McDaniels could be genuine, but it also could be an attempt to pump up his value.

The smoke indicates his trade value is nowhere near that.

Where you reading that? I’m reading that teams are declining crazy offers (OG, #4, filler, future picks for example) bc Morey is waiting for Lillard essentially.

But Woj, Jon K, Brit, Dane, thus both National and local guys, have said we’re desperate for the guy and we’re probably offering something around the above-quoted deal.

Now, some people, Nate Duncan for example, has said in his subjective (personal) opinion, he doesn’t see Simmons as a positive contract. However, all evidence says this is not what Finch/Rosas believe. I haven’t read anyone say that around the league Simmons has negative value. If you have, please point me to that.

[Norseman79]

No matter what people are going to continue to disagree on Simmons his price his value etc, but for now it's looking like a long shot at best. Any other under the radar guys that you guys have heard things about or are still out there that might be available? Right now we still have a ton of back court guys. I know certain players don't have a ton of value, like okoge, but to the right team the role he could play has value. I kind of look at the starting four/five position in a similar way, we don't necessarily need a star, don't get me wrong it would be nice, as much as we just need a good defensive and rebounding guy with some size. Would a guy like Nowell be enough to get a Claxton? Some guys are big Chris Boucher fans but he is like 6'9 200lbs...I don't really see that as adding size...

[shrink]

Despite what others will say about it, I bet Rosas' offer is probably pretty close to this. Way too much smoke to think we're not making a big offer, mostly consisting of future picks.

I'm not sure I do this though. I see Pat Bev as a neutral asset, but one I'd like to keep. I see Beasley as a positive asset, although depressed due to his jail time. And I love McDaniels.

I'd much rather do Beasley, Prince, Bolmaro, 2 FRPs, and 2 swaps. But I think Rosas is willing to offer everyone not named Towns, Russell, and Edwards. The extent of the Finch/Rosas love affair with McDaniels could be genuine, but it also could be an attempt to pump up his value.

The smoke indicates his trade value is nowhere near that.

Where you reading that? I’m reading that teams are declining crazy offers (OG, #4, filler, future picks for example) bc Morey is waiting for Lillard essentially.

But Woj, Jon K, Brit, Dane, thus both National and local guys, have said we’re desperate for the guy and we’re probably offering something around the above-quoted deal.

Now, some people, Nate Duncan for example, has said in his subjective (personal) opinion, he doesn’t see Simmons as a positive contract. However, all evidence says this is not what Finch/Rosas believe. I haven’t read anyone say that around the league Simmons has negative value. If you have, please point me to that.

I’ve heard “desperate,” but I haven’t heard any reports on the actual trade offers, other than Rosas saying KAT, Ant, and eventually DLo were off the table.

It’s hard to know what an offer will be based on trades that were rejected in real life.

[SO_MONEY]

Despite what others will say about it, I bet Rosas' offer is probably pretty close to this. Way too much smoke to think we're not making a big offer, mostly consisting of future picks.

I'm not sure I do this though. I see Pat Bev as a neutral asset, but one I'd like to keep. I see Beasley as a positive asset, although depressed due to his jail time. And I love McDaniels.

I'd much rather do Beasley, Prince, Bolmaro, 2 FRPs, and 2 swaps. But I think Rosas is willing to offer everyone not named Towns, Russell, and Edwards. The extent of the Finch/Rosas love affair with McDaniels could be genuine, but it also could be an attempt to pump up his value.

The smoke indicates his trade value is nowhere near that.

Where you reading that? I’m reading that teams are declining crazy offers (OG, #4, filler, future picks for example) bc Morey is waiting for Lillard essentially.

But Woj, Jon K, Brit, Dane, thus both National and local guys, have said we’re desperate for the guy and we’re probably offering something around the above-quoted deal.

Now, some people, Nate Duncan for example, has said in his subjective (personal) opinion, he doesn’t see Simmons as a positive contract. However, all evidence says this is not what Finch/Rosas believe. I haven’t read anyone say that around the league Simmons has negative value. If you have, please point me to that.

Dude. Jon K. is saying the market for Simmons is dry...has doubled down on this...and that there aren't really many if any teams interested save MN.

Low competition equates to lower offers. And if they try and bring him to camp, PHI may lose some leverage on top of that.

So the smoke doesn't indicate high offers.

[winforlose]

If I were going to offer on Simmons which I don’t know that I would, the best and final I would give is Beasley, Vando, Prince, one first and one pick swap, but the Wolves get back Paul Reed as well as Ben Simmons. I cannot prove the math yet because the trade machine cannot run for a little while, but eyeballing it and given that Vando is a sign and trade I think we make it work. We upgrade our PF at the first and second level, and Philly gets out of a bad contract and situation that will only get worse while acquiring two strong defenders in Vando and Prince and a solid starting SG. The first is lottery protected for 3 years and then converts to 2 seconds.

[winforlose]

Despite what others will say about it, I bet Rosas' offer is probably pretty close to this. Way too much smoke to think we're not making a big offer, mostly consisting of future picks.

I'm not sure I do this though. I see Pat Bev as a neutral asset, but one I'd like to keep. I see Beasley as a positive asset, although depressed due to his jail time. And I love McDaniels.

I'd much rather do Beasley, Prince, Bolmaro, 2 FRPs, and 2 swaps. But I think Rosas is willing to offer everyone not named Towns, Russell, and Edwards. The extent of the Finch/Rosas love affair with McDaniels could be genuine, but it also could be an attempt to pump up his value.

The smoke indicates his trade value is nowhere near that.

Where you reading that? I’m reading that teams are declining crazy offers (OG, #4, filler, future picks for example) bc Morey is waiting for Lillard essentially.

But Woj, Jon K, Brit, Dane, thus both National and local guys, have said we’re desperate for the guy and we’re probably offering something around the above-quoted deal.

Now, some people, Nate Duncan for example, has said in his subjective (personal) opinion, he doesn’t see Simmons as a positive contract. However, all evidence says this is not what Finch/Rosas believe. I haven’t read anyone say that around the league Simmons has negative value. If you have, please point me to that.

If the wolves had offered anything close to that insane asking price the 76ers would be laughing all the way to the bank. As for negative evaluations, I haven’t been reading the opinion columns. That said, those same writers probably talk about how much better Wiggins is in GSW when his numbers aren’t that much better and his flaws are hidden by Curry.

[SO_MONEY]

The smoke indicates his trade value is nowhere near that.

Where you reading that? I’m reading that teams are declining crazy offers (OG, #4, filler, future picks for example) bc Morey is waiting for Lillard essentially.

But Woj, Jon K, Brit, Dane, thus both National and local guys, have said we’re desperate for the guy and we’re probably offering something around the above-quoted deal.

Now, some people, Nate Duncan for example, has said in his subjective (personal) opinion, he doesn’t see Simmons as a positive contract. However, all evidence says this is not what Finch/Rosas believe. I haven’t read anyone say that around the league Simmons has negative value. If you have, please point me to that.

I’ve heard “desperate,” but I haven’t heard any reports on the actual trade offers, other than Rosas saying KAT, Ant, and eventually DLo were off the table.

It’s hard to know what an offer will be based on trades that were rejected in real life.

We don't know what offers were or weren't rejected in real life. I suspect at first an offer like Brogdon and a 1st being rejected was at the behest of PHI, wether that offer existed or not. Then progressively the leaks of rejected offers reached comical levels. I don't think the tail end here is actually what is happening or that it is coming from Philly, I think it is other teams upset with Morey not dealing in good faith, so they are trying to make him look incompetent, face public backlash and depreciate Simmons further.

[KGdaBom]

If I were going to offer on Simmons which I don’t know that I would, the best and final I would give is Beasley, Vando, Prince, one first and one pick swap, but the Wolves get back Paul Reed as well as Ben Simmons. I cannot prove the math yet because the trade machine cannot run for a little while, but eyeballing it and given that Vando is a sign and trade I think we make it work. We upgrade our PF at the first and second level, and Philly gets out of a bad contract and situation that will only get worse while acquiring two strong defenders in Vando and Prince and a solid starting SG. The first is lottery protected for 3 years and then converts to 2 seconds.

And you get hung up on very quickly.

[KGdaBom]

I would simply ask you to look at KAT’s shot chart or highlights on YouTube before continuing this. When he isn’t shooting 3s he is often posting up or attacking off the dribble.

I'm not saying he can't do those things, but don't pretend like he demands the ball on the block as he loves playing physical. He doesn't.

I didn’t pretend anything of the sort, I simply addressed things as they are. Simmons limits KAT’s options as well as Ant’s. Dlo doesn’t need clean driving lanes but the other two do, and they are less likely to get them with Simmons.

Does KAT clog the lane for Simmons and DLo. Every player has a right to score from the lane.

[KGdaBom]

Seems clear to me that Wolves were showcasing McDaniels in summer league to increase his trade value. He’s the one piece we can trade that isn’t a ‘win now’ player.

I disagree. I think Rosas views McDaniels as a keeper, and has said so many times. I think they used Summer League as a chance for McDaniels to play a more wide open game, to assess what he needs to work on and where he could grow, before he is slid back into a more complimentary role during the regular season.

Every player is a keeper until something better comes along.

[KGdaBom]

Finally, as to the “good contract vs bad contract” debate, I’d lean towards bad, but I think it’s close. For big name, big salary players, they often receive slightly positive trade returns, but with the size of the contract, they fall off a cliff quickly and become one of the league’s worst contracts.

First, for even the most ardent Simmons fan, do you think his production could be worth more than $140 mil over the next four years? That’s a lot of money - and it’s guaranteed. The odds that Simmons loses time to injury over that period, or doesn’t improve his shooting, or never regains his confidence, is pretty high, so the contract has a lot of downside, and not much upside. Moreover, players who’d strongest skill is defense never get big salaries - “go to” scorers get paid.

However, the other side of the coin is that a player like Simmons may win you games. Big name/salary players consolidate talent into one of the five roster spots you can get on the floor.if you paid $90 mil for 90 units of production for the rest of your team, spending $10 mil for 10 more units still loses you games if the other team puts up 105 units. That $10 doesn’t help you win. However, if Ben gives you 20 more units for $30 mil, that may be “overpaid” on average, but with the 110 units, you now win that game. This is why borderline superstars get max deals. I just question whether Simmons flaws (irregular fit, lack of growth, confidence, shooting) can all simultaneously exist and we still pay a guy like a superstar.

Stars with holes are the most likely candidates in the NBA to become bad contracts.

Good description, but all players have holes.

[Baseline81]

Despite what others will say about it, I bet Rosas' offer is probably pretty close to this. Way too much smoke to think we're not making a big offer, mostly consisting of future picks.

I'm not sure I do this though. I see Pat Bev as a neutral asset, but one I'd like to keep. I see Beasley as a positive asset, although depressed due to his jail time. And I love McDaniels.

I'd much rather do Beasley, Prince, Bolmaro, 2 FRPs, and 2 swaps. But I think Rosas is willing to offer everyone not named Towns, Russell, and Edwards. The extent of the Finch/Rosas love affair with McDaniels could be genuine, but it also could be an attempt to pump up his value.

In Britt Robson's Q&A with Chris Finch, he listed the "core four" as Edwards, McDaniels, Russell and Towns.

[fattymcgee]

Final offer. Beasley+Beverly+McDaniels+3 1st..Sad to give up McDaniels. But Simmons is superstar level player even w/o jumps hot. And he's still 25 yrs old. There will be room for improvement. Dlo, ant, simmons, towns is a lethal big 4.

That's way too much. For me, It's either Russell + first for Simmons or it's Beasley + Prince + first for Simmons or just forget it. An unprotected Minnesota first is gold. If Philly takes either of the two deals I offered, Minnesota still enters the season with questions marks -

Who plays PG? Does Minnesota have the weakest bench in the league with Beasley and Prince gone? If Kat misses some games, and Simmons struggles to shoot, Minnesota could win only 30 games next year. That means Philly gets a top-6 pick, maybe higher. I'm not a fan of trading a top-6 pick for a player that has to leave the floor at the end of close games because he can't make a free throw.

For me, Simmons is only worth a 2022 draft pick. He was really bad in the last games he played. Was it a fluke? Or was it his new normal? I'm not sending out multiple picks to find out.

I agree that's too much. I'd definitely rather keep all those pieces than have Simmons. That's three of our top 7 (and two of them being 24 or under with much upside) plus three first round picks. Too much.

[KGdaBom]

:banghead:

I swear, it’s like watching a group of 300 pound guys turning down 8s and 9s because they’re not perfect 10s.

And you are acting like 76ers aren’t a **** with Simmons wanting out ? LOL

Don’t care about the Sixers .

Care that some fans seem to forget we’re not the Lakers. We don’t have room to be picky. Win and sort it out later.

Of all the stats regarding Simmons the most important one to me is that they win with him on the floor. We would win with him on the floor.

[KGdaBom]

Yeah Seth Curry, Tobias Harris, Joel Embiid and the rest of the 76ers roster had nothing to do with it. It was all Simmons and the 58 games he played.

Look, I am not saying he is a bad player or that he did not contribute to his team. I am saying he is a bad fit and overpaid by about 20 million dollars given his severe limitations. Best case scenario he is a taller JO with a better handle. Worst case, he is a taller JO who gets in the way.

You think he’s a better Okogie?

Anything to back that up?

14.7% 3 point shooting on his career. I cannot quickly look up his 2 point shooting outside the paint but the numbers are not going to be great. He is a defensive player who can only score inside. JO is very similar. Simmons is a higher quality ball handler and passer, but he also costs roughly 7 times as much. If Simmons was free or only cost us Beverly, Prince and a 1st I would do it. Of course we would need our owner to be okay being in a huge luxury tax commitment for the next 4 years and essentially buying wins instead of earning them, but that is what the NBA is becoming thanks to the Warriors, Nets and soon more team.

I'd rather have 1 Simmons than 7 Okogies.

[fattymcgee]

Despite what others will say about it, I bet Rosas' offer is probably pretty close to this. Way too much smoke to think we're not making a big offer, mostly consisting of future picks.

I'm not sure I do this though. I see Pat Bev as a neutral asset, but one I'd like to keep. I see Beasley as a positive asset, although depressed due to his jail time. And I love McDaniels.

I'd much rather do Beasley, Prince, Bolmaro, 2 FRPs, and 2 swaps. But I think Rosas is willing to offer everyone not named Towns, Russell, and Edwards. The extent of the Finch/Rosas love affair with McDaniels could be genuine, but it also could be an attempt to pump up his value.

The smoke indicates his trade value is nowhere near that.

Where you reading that? I’m reading that teams are declining crazy offers (OG, #4, filler, future picks for example) bc Morey is waiting for Lillard essentially.

But Woj, Jon K, Brit, Dane, thus both National and local guys, have said we’re desperate for the guy and we’re probably offering something around the above-quoted deal.

Now, some people, Nate Duncan for example, has said in his subjective (personal) opinion, he doesn’t see Simmons as a positive contract. However, all evidence says this is not what Finch/Rosas believe. I haven’t read anyone say that around the league Simmons has negative value. If you have, please point me to that.

That offer never happened, that was just a hypothetical.

[SO_MONEY]

:banghead:

And you are acting like 76ers aren’t a **** with Simmons wanting out ? LOL

Don’t care about the Sixers .

Care that some fans seem to forget we’re not the Lakers. We don’t have room to be picky. Win and sort it out later.

Of all the stats regarding Simmons the most important one to me is that they win with him on the floor. We would win with him on the floor.

Which is why we could take a bad contract if better use is not available. That doesn't mean we would give up a ton for it.

[KGdaBom]

Sixers fan here

Sorry but some of you guys have no idea

Simmons/KAT/Ant/D’lo gets you to playoffs year 1 health permitting

And that’s coming off a 23 win season

He’s that good

You will be frustrated (as we are) BUT the guy wins nba games

Problem is that you guys have nobody that the Sixers want outside of KAT and Ant so deal will be complicated

That is my biggest thing in favor or Simmons.

[KGdaBom]

Sixers fan here

Sorry but some of you guys have no idea

Simmons/KAT/Ant/D’lo gets you to playoffs year 1 health permitting

And that’s coming off a 23 win season

He’s that good

You will be frustrated (as we are) BUT the guy wins nba games

Problem is that you guys have nobody that the Sixers want outside of KAT and Ant so deal will be complicated

You neglect to realize they won 23 games because they played huge chunks of the season with 3 of their top 4 players out and a bad HC calling the shots. They were a 500 team the last 23 games when mostly healthy at 12-11.

12-11??????


Who gives a ****!

Simmons gets you to 50 wins+, teaches Edwards to play defence and keeps KAT

As a Sixers fan, I find so many of your arguments ridiculous

Twolves have literally nothing we want because KAT & Ant are off the table and justifiably so

But let’s not pretend that Simmons wouldn’t MASSIVELY improve your team

Minnesota won 23 games

Simmons would do that with our G league team

I've appreciated your posts until this one. Way over the top.