The too early Suggs vs. Barnes thread

[OhCanada1091]

That thread poll showed Barnes at 7% and Suggs at 40% and this thread poll has Barnes at 57% and Suggs at 43%. That swing kind of proves the point of being post you were responding to that the opinion on Suggs completely changed as soon as Masai made the pick.

I don’t get why it matters. I was 100% on the Suggs train but we took Barnes so i’m going to ride and root for OUR player. I voted Suggs before but i’m a Raptors fan so Barnes is my guy now and i’m trusting our FO.

It matters in terms of having an intellectually honest discussion when evaluating players, otherwise why bother even responding if you’re just going to be a blind homer? It may be news to people on this board but you can objectively look at players in other teams and still root for our players. There’s a high probability that Barnes isn’t going to be the best player in the draft next season and there are going to be players that were selected after him that have better seasons, but that doesn’t mean that we should have selected a lot of those players over Barnes, especially when he’s going to be a project. So it’s okay to say that those players are better then Barnes at the moment, but still root for Barnes to do well. I come to this board to talk basketball with like minded fans, not mindlessly praise the team like a cult.

So people can't admit that maybe they were wrong? Reevaluate their opinions? Maybe Bobby Webster and Masai Ujiri are just a little bit better at evaluating talent than I am...Or maybe Suggs is the better prospect but the fit with Barnes is better. Or now this dudes gotta just keep crying about us not drafting Suggs or he's a blind homer...Not that it matters because I was team Barnes before this board even knew his first name.

[Pointgod]

Per 36

Cade 24.3pts (42.9%), 7.4rb (1.3off), 3.0ast/5.2to, 2.2st/1.7bk
Green 30.3pts (51.4%), 6.4rb (0.5off), 3.0ast/3.4to, 0.5st/0.0bk
Mobley 14.1pts (34.9%), 9.6rb (3.4off), 3.7ast/4.1to, 0.9st/2.1bk
Barnes 20.4pts (41.2%), 9.0rb (3.3off), 4.4ast/2.4to, 1.3st/2.6bk
Suggs 25.3pts (41.5%), 10.4rb (2.2off), 3.8ast/3.8to, 2.8st/1.7bk

Giddey* 14.1pts (33.3%), 0.0rb (0.0off), 0.0ast/0.0to, 0.0st/0.9bk
Kuminga 22.2pts (36.2%), 7.3rb (1.3off), 1.7ast/3.0to, 2.2st/0.9bk
Wagner 10.7pts (40.0%), 6.8rb (1.2off), 1.7ast/3.4to, 1.7st/0.5bk
Mitchell 19.1pts (53.1%), 2.4rb (0.4off), 8.0ast/1.8to, 1.8st/0.4bk <---
Williams 16.2pts (43.8%), 5.4rb (1.8off), 1.0ast/2.3to, 1.4st/0.4bk
Bouknight 21.0pts (45.0%), 3.5rb (0.4off), 4.8ast/4.4to, 1.0st/1.0bk
Primo 10.7pts (27.3%), 2.7rb (0.0off), 2.7ast/5.4to, 2.7st/0.0bk
Duarte 24.4pts (45.6%), 5.3rb (0.7off), 5.1ast/4.4to, 3.3st/2.4bk <---
Moody 25.4pts (40.9%), 4.5rb (1.1off), 1.5ast/1.5to, 1.9st/0.5bk
Kispert 10.0pts (30.4%), 1.8rb (0.0off), 1.2ast/1.8to, 0.6st/0.0bk
Sengun 21.3pts (41.2%), 15.6rb (4.7off), 4.3ast/2.8to, 1.8st/4.3bk <---

This shows how useless summer league stats are. Both Green and Suggs didn’t play a whole half and haven’t played a game since getting injured so that significantly decreases their stats. Giddey played like 3 minutes before he got injured and he hasn’t played since. This at doesn’t even include guys like Cam Thomas, Jalen Johnson and Sharif Cooper who have been balling out in summer league but are on playoff teams. You actually have to watch the games because the box scores don’t tell you much.

Barnes also got dinged up and was hobbling around the court for a quarter. And Green and Suggs have averaged a whopping THREE and FIVE less minutes than Barnes. And he's using PER 36 minutes. So Green and Suggs playing less minutes actually don't matter at all.

And NOW you're calling Summer League stats useless but three days ago you were making a list of the top 10 players in Summer League. lol

And Josh Giddey played a couple of minutes then got injured, why is his per 36 even valid? Those per 36 minutes actually make Suggs and Green look better, but it’s stupid to compare the stats of guys that played two and a half games against guys that played multiple games. The per 36 makes a lot of players look better they actually are and in summer league the stats are even more useless. And yes I made a list of top 10 summer league players, but I didn’t make any broad conclusions, other than Jalen Green had looked like the best rookie in summer league before he got injured. And that’s based on watching the games.

Jesus you guys are so butt hurt at anyone who doesn’t believe Barnes is going to be the next Giannis it’s actually comical.

[Pointgod]

I don’t get why it matters. I was 100% on the Suggs train but we took Barnes so i’m going to ride and root for OUR player. I voted Suggs before but i’m a Raptors fan so Barnes is my guy now and i’m trusting our FO.

It matters in terms of having an intellectually honest discussion when evaluating players, otherwise why bother even responding if you’re just going to be a blind homer? It may be news to people on this board but you can objectively look at players in other teams and still root for our players. There’s a high probability that Barnes isn’t going to be the best player in the draft next season and there are going to be players that were selected after him that have better seasons, but that doesn’t mean that we should have selected a lot of those players over Barnes, especially when he’s going to be a project. So it’s okay to say that those players are better then Barnes at the moment, but still root for Barnes to do well. I come to this board to talk basketball with like minded fans, not mindlessly praise the team like a cult.

So people can't admit that maybe they were wrong? Reevaluate their opinions? Maybe Bobby Webster and Masai Ujiri are just a little bit better at evaluating talent than I am...Or maybe Suggs is the better prospect but the fit with Barnes is better. Or now this dudes gotta just keep crying about us not drafting Suggs or he's a blind homer...Not that it matters because I was team Barnes before this board even knew his first name.

Yea there are plenty of good arguments to take Barnes but the poll doesn’t from 7% of posters wanting Barnes before the draft to over 50% wanting Barnes post draft without some homerism (you’d have to assume everyone that wanted Mobley also wanted Barnes as the second choice). At the end of the day who cares, I hope Barnes develops but I’ll continue to be objective

[Los_29]

This shows how useless summer league stats are. Both Green and Suggs didn’t play a whole half and haven’t played a game since getting injured so that significantly decreases their stats. Giddey played like 3 minutes before he got injured and he hasn’t played since. This at doesn’t even include guys like Cam Thomas, Jalen Johnson and Sharif Cooper who have been balling out in summer league but are on playoff teams. You actually have to watch the games because the box scores don’t tell you much.

Barnes also got dinged up and was hobbling around the court for a quarter. And Green and Suggs have averaged a whopping THREE and FIVE less minutes than Barnes. And he's using PER 36 minutes. So Green and Suggs playing less minutes actually don't matter at all.

And NOW you're calling Summer League stats useless but three days ago you were making a list of the top 10 players in Summer League. lol

And Josh Giddey played a couple of minutes then got injured, why is his per 36 even valid? Those per 36 minutes actually make Suggs and Green look better, but it’s stupid to compare the stats of guys that played two and a half games against guys that played multiple games. The per 36 makes a lot of players look better they actually are and in summer league the stats are even more useless. And yes I made a list of top 10 summer league players, but I didn’t make any broad conclusions, other than Jalen Green had looked like the best rookie in summer league before he got injured. And that’s based on watching the games.

Jesus you guys are so butt hurt at anyone who doesn’t believe Barnes is going to be the next Giannis it’s actually comical.

Giddey shouldn't be there. He's played like 2 minutes. I agree with you there. But Green and Suggs should absolutely be there.

And once again, people are twisting and distorting words and frankly making stuff up. We aren't saying that Barnes is the next Giannis, only 1-2 people have actually said this. You and some other posters are now getting upset because you went from trashing on a 20 year old player and calling him a bust to now having to do damage control.

[Hero_Panda]

Yea there are plenty of good arguments to take Barnes but the poll doesn’t from 7% of posters wanting Barnes before the draft to over 50% wanting Barnes post draft without some homerism (you’d have to assume everyone that wanted Mobley also wanted Barnes as the second choice). At the end of the day who cares, I hope Barnes develops but I’ll continue to be objective

I knew nothing about Barnes pre-draft.
Mock drafts that I've checked out, along with everyone and their grandma was pencilling in Suggs at #4.

Come Draft Time the Raps made the first surprise pick, one that shocked 90% of people. So I looked up reports on Barnes, and only because Masai and Bobby shocked everyone with their pick I found reports by the other 10% like David Thorpe who have Barnes much higher as the #5 best prospect in the 2021 draft class, and you know what, the more I read about Barnes the more I can see why Masai and Bobby lliked him over Suggs.

Moral of the story, stop making assumptions.

[ForeverTFC]

this is false. The league is getting bigger. Stagnation has happened at the 5 spot, but 1-4 is growing in height.

Unless I’m reading this wrong the increase in average height seems to be coming from the PG and SG positions, which would favor Suggs because he’s above average height for a PG.

Graphs like this literally mean nothing. Raptors won a championship with Lowry and Van Vleet at PG...

It was simply a reply to the poster saying the league was getting smaller which it is not. Did not connect it in any way to winning.

[SHFT]

It matters in terms of having an intellectually honest discussion when evaluating players, otherwise why bother even responding if you’re just going to be a blind homer? It may be news to people on this board but you can objectively look at players in other teams and still root for our players. There’s a high probability that Barnes isn’t going to be the best player in the draft next season and there are going to be players that were selected after him that have better seasons, but that doesn’t mean that we should have selected a lot of those players over Barnes, especially when he’s going to be a project. So it’s okay to say that those players are better then Barnes at the moment, but still root for Barnes to do well. I come to this board to talk basketball with like minded fans, not mindlessly praise the team like a cult.

So people can't admit that maybe they were wrong? Reevaluate their opinions? Maybe Bobby Webster and Masai Ujiri are just a little bit better at evaluating talent than I am...Or maybe Suggs is the better prospect but the fit with Barnes is better. Or now this dudes gotta just keep crying about us not drafting Suggs or he's a blind homer...Not that it matters because I was team Barnes before this board even knew his first name.

Yea there are plenty of good arguments to take Barnes but the poll doesn’t from 7% of posters wanting Barnes before the draft to over 50% wanting Barnes post draft without some homerism (you’d have to assume everyone that wanted Mobley also wanted Barnes as the second choice). At the end of the day who cares, I hope Barnes develops but I’ll continue to be objective

but the poll doesn’t from 7% of posters wanting Barnes before the draft to over 50% wanting Barnes post draft without some homerism

People are conditioned. Us taking Suggs was apparently a fact and only a few mostly random people suggested otherwise. That means that people watched a ton of Suggs highlights and stuff and emotionally attached themselves to that player, alot of them without meaning to do (unless you follow college ball). We dont know how that poll would have turned out if Barnes was thrown in our face the exact same amount Suggs was. There was a bit of homerism, there was also some uneducated, some trolls and probably some people who legit dont care about the integrity of the poll for the sake of your discussion.

There is a ton of stuff you are not considering lol

[Pooh_Jeter]

So Sam Vecenie had an article on a bunch of the rookie performances from SL...

On Barnes:

Barnes did what was largely anticipated of him in summer league, as well. He’s such a fun, energetic presence on the court. He brings it on both ends, and plays with great intent.

"The problem is — unfair as it may be — he’s going to be compared for the rest of his career with the people taken around him in the top five.

His performance was positive for a 20-year-old playing his first professional action. But the team used a top-five pick on him over the next guy we’re about to talk about, and every executive I talked to who attended summer league was absolutely effusive about praise for…[Suggs]

On Suggs:

Suggs was awesome. He was everything evaluators who loved him thought he was.

Suggs looked every bit the guy I thought he was pre-draft when I ranked him No. 2 overall. The Magic should hand over the keys to their offense to Suggs to start the year and let him grow through some of the eventual pains that’ll happen as a first-year player in the NBA. His upside is higher than anyone else’s on the roster, a legitimate potential All-Star who plays on both ends of the floor and can take over the game both as a scorer and as a passer.

I don't want to post too much since it's not a free article, but you get the general picture. He also had a little section on Kuminga VS Barnes.

[bluerap23]

I watched both closely in Summer League. I actually think they are extremely similar in a lot of respects. Suggs is obviously more polished, but the actual impact is so similar. Same flaws as each other as well. Given that, I'll take the 6'8" dude.

[Pointgod]

So Sam Vecenie had an article on a bunch of the rookie performances from SL...

On Barnes:

Barnes did what was largely anticipated of him in summer league, as well. He’s such a fun, energetic presence on the court. He brings it on both ends, and plays with great intent.

"The problem is — unfair as it may be — he’s going to be compared for the rest of his career with the people taken around him in the top five.

His performance was positive for a 20-year-old playing his first professional action. But the team used a top-five pick on him over the next guy we’re about to talk about, and every executive I talked to who attended summer league was absolutely effusive about praise for…[Suggs]

On Suggs:

Suggs was awesome. He was everything evaluators who loved him thought he was.

Suggs looked every bit the guy I thought he was pre-draft when I ranked him No. 2 overall. The Magic should hand over the keys to their offense to Suggs to start the year and let him grow through some of the eventual pains that’ll happen as a first-year player in the NBA. His upside is higher than anyone else’s on the roster, a legitimate potential All-Star who plays on both ends of the floor and can take over the game both as a scorer and as a passer.

I don't want to post too much since it's not a free article, but you get the general picture. He also had a little section on Kuminga VS Barnes.

Can you post the Kuminga comparison and Barnes?

[Pooh_Jeter]

Can you post the Kuminga comparison and Barnes?

He wasn’t nearly as consistent overall as Scottie Barnes, but the flashes in the halfcourt as a creator were better, in my view. Whether you felt one or the other had a better summer league is dependent purely upon how you evaluate an event like this. Are you looking for tools, or are you looking for consistent performance day in, day out.

Basically, Kuminga is a boom or bust prospect, but for Vecenie his ceiling is higher than Barnes.

For all the people who believe Barnes has a higher ceiling than Suggs, it's actually Kuminga who has much more of the big time wing scorer profile than Barnes does and it's not like he is a slouch defensively.

[vulture]

Can you post the Kuminga comparison and Barnes?

He wasn’t nearly as consistent overall as Scottie Barnes, but the flashes in the halfcourt as a creator were better, in my view. Whether you felt one or the other had a better summer league is dependent purely upon how you evaluate an event like this. Are you looking for tools, or are you looking for consistent performance day in, day out.

Basically, Kuminga is a boom or bust prospect, but for Vecenie his ceiling is higher than Barnes.

For all the people who believe Barnes has a higher ceiling than Suggs, it's actually Kuminga who has much more of the big time wing scorer profile than Barnes does and it's not like he is a slouch defensively.

they are actually aren't even close defensively. Kuminga's defensive awareness off the ball is really bad and he's a bad defensive rebounder.
don't even get me started on the ball.

[everdiso]

So Sam Vecenie had an article on a bunch of the rookie performances from SL...

On Barnes:

Barnes did what was largely anticipated of him in summer league, as well. He’s such a fun, energetic presence on the court. He brings it on both ends, and plays with great intent.

"The problem is — unfair as it may be — he’s going to be compared for the rest of his career with the people taken around him in the top five.

His performance was positive for a 20-year-old playing his first professional action. But the team used a top-five pick on him over the next guy we’re about to talk about, and every executive I talked to who attended summer league was absolutely effusive about praise for…[Suggs]

On Suggs:

Suggs was awesome. He was everything evaluators who loved him thought he was.

Suggs looked every bit the guy I thought he was pre-draft when I ranked him No. 2 overall. The Magic should hand over the keys to their offense to Suggs to start the year and let him grow through some of the eventual pains that’ll happen as a first-year player in the NBA. His upside is higher than anyone else’s on the roster, a legitimate potential All-Star who plays on both ends of the floor and can take over the game both as a scorer and as a passer.

I don't want to post too much since it's not a free article, but you get the general picture. He also had a little section on Kuminga VS Barnes.

Sounds like a guy trying to pat himself on the back for his pre-draft rankings, when in reality both players were similarly impressive.

This sentence in particular made me chuckle: "but he’s just much more of a project as a ballhandler and playmaker than the other players taken around him."

That "much more of a project" guy had a better assist rate and a much better turnover rate than any of the other guys.

[Pooh_Jeter]

Can you post the Kuminga comparison and Barnes?

He wasn’t nearly as consistent overall as Scottie Barnes, but the flashes in the halfcourt as a creator were better, in my view. Whether you felt one or the other had a better summer league is dependent purely upon how you evaluate an event like this. Are you looking for tools, or are you looking for consistent performance day in, day out.

Basically, Kuminga is a boom or bust prospect, but for Vecenie his ceiling is higher than Barnes.

For all the people who believe Barnes has a higher ceiling than Suggs, it's actually Kuminga who has much more of the big time wing scorer profile than Barnes does and it's not like he is a slouch defensively.

they are actually aren't even close defensively. Kuminga's defensive awareness off the ball is really bad and he's a bad defensive rebounder.
don't even get me started on the ball.

Vecenie on Kuminga's on ball defense:

His on-ball defense when he was locked in was indicative of a potential shut-down defender.

[Salted Meat]

Here's what it coms down to between Suggs and Barnes for me:

Winning.

Suggs will be a great offensive weapon, and initiator, and he might even be a bigger star than Barnes, but on the Raptors -a team that is not in a full rebuild, and already has established offensive weapons on the team- I want a guy who's going to fit in to the culture the team already has, rather than someone coming in and trying to change it.

I look at how Barnes will fit in with a lineup of OG, Siakam and VanVleet, and see someone who will elevate and re-inforce the team's strengths, which to me will contribute much more to the Raptors success. This team hangs its hat on the defensive end, and uses their length to get deflections and turnovers, leading to fast-break opportunities, which Barnes will only help facilitate even moreso. I also see a guy who won't need the ball in his hands to maximize his efficiency, which means he won't be stepping on anyone's toes during half-court sets.

I think at the end of the day, that type of contribution will have a greater impact on this team winning than what Suggs brings to the table. It's not a knock on Suggs, and I might be wrong and cursing my tv when it's a close game in the 4th and we can't buy a bucket to save our lives, but I get where the team's intentions were with this pick, and I think when we look back in a few years it'll be the right one.

[Steelo Green]

How do you win without a go to scorer?

[mademan]

How do you win without a go to scorer?

Suggs is a go to scorer?

[ItsDanger]

How do you win without a go to scorer?

Defense. Their roster allows them to utilize a unique style but it will require time to create chemistry required.

[Steelo Green]

How do you win without a go to scorer?

Suggs is a go to scorer?

I didn’t mention Suggs but this idea that Scottie and the team that can’t score is something formidable is confusing.

Minus literally the Pistons, every single team that has won a title has had a big time scorer.

Duncan was the best defensive player in basketball along with scoring 20PPG. Don’t see any of those on our roster.

[Steelo Green]

How do you win without a go to scorer?

Defense. Their roster allows them to utilize a unique style but it will require time to create chemistry required.

Not a method ever used for success and creating this new trend won’t work.

You need to put the ball in the net.