Trade Talk (Part Eight)

[KGdaBom]

People like yourself need to put a number on what you would pay him then.

So there's the question; what would you pay, on the open market, for a 25yr old 6-11 PG that's a 3x NBA All Star, 1 time All NBA 3rd Team, 2x All NBA Defensive First Team, 2020 NBA steals leader with career averages of 15.9ppg, 8.1rpg, 7.7apg on a .560 eFG%, .579 TS% and with a .156 WS/48?

You are placing value on subjective often political awards. I don't think he deserves to be an all-star, what does it matter that he was, because it wouldn't factor into what I would pay him. Same with All-NBA defense...are all of a sudden All-NBA caliber defenders worth less because they got snubbed?

I think $17-23mil is my comfortable range for him.

Yeah, think I'm about done beating my head against the wall with this crap. Anything remotely in his favour gets handwaved away by you and your lot.

Near triple double career averages? Irrelevant, cause reasons.
Incredible advanced stats? Irrelevant, cause reasons.
Playoffs every season he's played? Irrelevant, cause reasons.
Individual accolades? Irrelevant, cause reasons.

With fans like this, we deserve to be a laughing stock.

I'm with you Shangrila.

[SO_MONEY]

People like yourself need to put a number on what you would pay him then.

So there's the question; what would you pay, on the open market, for a 25yr old 6-11 PG that's a 3x NBA All Star, 1 time All NBA 3rd Team, 2x All NBA Defensive First Team, 2020 NBA steals leader with career averages of 15.9ppg, 8.1rpg, 7.7apg on a .560 eFG%, .579 TS% and with a .156 WS/48?

You are placing value on subjective often political awards. I don't think he deserves to be an all-star, what does it matter that he was, because it wouldn't factor into what I would pay him. Same with All-NBA defense...are all of a sudden All-NBA caliber defenders worth less because they got snubbed?

I think $17-23mil is my comfortable range for him.

Yeah, think I'm about done beating my head against the wall with this crap. Anything remotely in his favour gets handwaved away by you and your lot.

Near triple double career averages? Irrelevant, cause reasons.
Incredible advanced stats? Irrelevant, cause reasons.
Playoffs every season he's played? Irrelevant, cause reasons.
Individual accolades? Irrelevant, cause reasons.

With fans like this, we deserve to be a laughing stock.

You have yet to justify his salary. He is a bad contract.

His numbers are not all that impressive. Yet, you act as if they are.

He is an excellent defender, a very good playmaker and an average to below average rebounder for his position...PF.

[KGdaBom]

You are placing value on subjective often political awards. I don't think he deserves to be an all-star, what does it matter that he was, because it wouldn't factor into what I would pay him. Same with All-NBA defense...are all of a sudden All-NBA caliber defenders worth less because they got snubbed?

I think $17-23mil is my comfortable range for him.

Yeah, think I'm about done beating my head against the wall with this crap. Anything remotely in his favour gets handwaved away by you and your lot.

Near triple double career averages? Irrelevant, cause reasons.
Incredible advanced stats? Irrelevant, cause reasons.
Playoffs every season he's played? Irrelevant, cause reasons.
Individual accolades? Irrelevant, cause reasons.

With fans like this, we deserve to be a laughing stock.

You have yet to justify his salary. He is a bad contract.

His numbers are not all that impressive. Yet, you act as if they are.

He is an excellent defender, a very good playmaker and an average to below average rebounder for his position...PF.

You keep digging your hole deeper and deeper. His numbers are all that impressive.

[SO_MONEY]

Yeah, think I'm about done beating my head against the wall with this crap. Anything remotely in his favour gets handwaved away by you and your lot.

Near triple double career averages? Irrelevant, cause reasons.
Incredible advanced stats? Irrelevant, cause reasons.
Playoffs every season he's played? Irrelevant, cause reasons.
Individual accolades? Irrelevant, cause reasons.

With fans like this, we deserve to be a laughing stock.

You have yet to justify his salary. He is a bad contract.

His numbers are not all that impressive. Yet, you act as if they are.

He is an excellent defender, a very good playmaker and an average to below average rebounder for his position...PF.

You keep digging your hole deeper and deeper. His numbers are all that impressive.

They are good, but I wouldn't get overly excited by them either. And that is ignoring the limitations.

[Krapinsky]

https://www.nbcsports.com/philadelphia/video/flat-out-it-worked-marc-jackson-wizards-hack-ben-strategy

And

Watch on YouTube

And note, this was after the Wizards did this to him. Not at Atlanta.

I would worry about his chance of making future free throws after the Atlanta series is much worse. I don’t think anyone can deny his poor free throw shooting certainly affected Ben, with his unwillingness to touch the ball and not even dunking, as he tried to avoid getting fouled and being embarrassed nationally in a big game.

I hear what people are saying about his four year, regular season free throw rate, but I don’t think he was ever in as bad a place mentally now as he was at anytime in those four years. Worse, Ben has shown for many years now that has not been able to improve his shooting. I understand he is a great player defensively and has many other concerns, but it amazes me that people don’t have concerns about coaches in the future relying on “Hack-a-Ben.”

The one team that tried hack a Ben got beat by Ben pretty badly, then turned around and blew up their team.

[Krapinsky]

People like yourself need to put a number on what you would pay him then.

So there's the question; what would you pay, on the open market, for a 25yr old 6-11 PG that's a 3x NBA All Star, 1 time All NBA 3rd Team, 2x All NBA Defensive First Team, 2020 NBA steals leader with career averages of 15.9ppg, 8.1rpg, 7.7apg on a .560 eFG%, .579 TS% and with a .156 WS/48?

You are placing value on subjective often political awards. I don't think he deserves to be an all-star, what does it matter that he was, because it wouldn't factor into what I would pay him. Same with All-NBA defense...are all of a sudden All-NBA caliber defenders worth less because they got snubbed?

I think $17-23mil is my comfortable range for him.

Yeah, think I'm about done beating my head against the wall with this crap. Anything remotely in his favour gets handwaved away by you and your lot.

Near triple double career averages? Irrelevant, cause reasons.
Incredible advanced stats? Irrelevant, cause reasons.
Playoffs every season he's played? Irrelevant, cause reasons.
Individual accolades? Irrelevant, cause reasons.

With fans like this, we deserve to be a laughing stock.

The ideal team for a MN wolves fan is 5 Jaden McDaniels-esque players starting (making $2m per year on a rookie deal) going 0-82 and drafting #1 every year, with $40m in cap space. Rinse, recycle, repeat.

[moonpie]

Read on Twitter

[Merc_Porto]

In this talk about Simmons, we are probably forgetting something really important...
If the problem for Minnesota POV is to give Dlo... (Which I doubt, that would be hilarious if was the reason)

Let's put it this way then, why the hell Philadelphia would want Dlo in the first place? They probably don't want him at all. Nobody wants that contract, let's be serious.
And that is why a trade wasn't made yet and a 3rd team is needed.

McDaniels + Beasley + player from a 3rd team to Philly
Picks to a third team

[Baseline81]

The ideal team for a MN wolves fan is 5 Jaden McDaniels-esque players starting (making $2m per year on a rookie deal) going 0-82 and drafting #1 every year, with $40m in cap space. Rinse, recycle, repeat.

I understand your attempt at humor but such a bad take. Not a single poster has even hinted at this.

Several of those you are going back and forth with have said they would trade for Simmons. The sticking point is not Simmons, but what the Wolves would have to trade for him.

[SO_MONEY]

In this talk about Simmons, we are probably forgetting something really important...
If the problem for Minnesota POV is to give Dlo... (Which I doubt, that would be hilarious if was the reason)

Let's put it this way then, why the hell Philadelphia would want Dlo in the first place? They probably don't want him at all. Nobody wants that contract, let's be serious.
And that is why a trade wasn't made yet and a 3rd team is needed.

McDaniels + Beasley + player from a 3rd team to Philly
Picks to a third team

I would say Russell is the better contract, worse player, so if no one wants his contract, why would they want Simmons'? Clearly to get the better player, but only if they are best suited to forgo flexibility. The same types of teams would target both players

I don't think MN wants to give up a PG and create that hole in the lineup and they are not going to want to give up McDaniels on a great contract when he replicates what you would be trading for defeating the point of the trade, while also costing additional assets and flexibility. In short they want to balance the staring 5.

Simmons and Russell would be targets of teams that want to add a last piece...not create holes to build around.

[shrink]

https://www.nbcsports.com/philadelphia/video/flat-out-it-worked-marc-jackson-wizards-hack-ben-strategy

And

Watch on YouTube

And note, this was after the Wizards did this to him. Not at Atlanta.

I would worry about his chance of making future free throws after the Atlanta series is much worse. I don’t think anyone can deny his poor free throw shooting certainly affected Ben, with his unwillingness to touch the ball and not even dunking, as he tried to avoid getting fouled and being embarrassed nationally in a big game.

I hear what people are saying about his four year, regular season free throw rate, but I don’t think he was ever in as bad a place mentally now as he was at anytime in those four years. Worse, Ben has shown for many years now that has not been able to improve his shooting. I understand he is a great player defensively and has many other concerns, but it amazes me that people don’t have concerns about coaches in the future relying on “Hack-a-Ben.”

The one team that tried hack a Ben got beat by Ben pretty badly, then turned around and blew up their team.

Be fair. Washington was the #8 seed. They were often too far behind to do Hack-a-Ben in the fourth quarter. They were tied in Game 4, did Hack-a-Ben, and went on to win 122-114. Watch the video. To imply that the #8 seed losing because of Hack-a-Ben doesn’t seem fair.

The concerns about hack-a-Ben may be a little overblown. I just checked the highlights of the last three Eastern Conference Finals and not a single team employed that strategy.

Not sure what you mean, PHI didn’t reach the ECF. It was used against them by WAS in the first series, and it worked.

More importantly, I have stressed several times that I think teams in close games will use Hack-a-Ben in the future, after he was so badly exposed in the Sixers dramatic loss to the #5 seed, Atlanta. In that game, he refused to even dunk the ball, because he was so scared of being fouled and forced to shoot free throws.

[Krapinsky]

The ideal team for a MN wolves fan is 5 Jaden McDaniels-esque players starting (making $2m per year on a rookie deal) going 0-82 and drafting #1 every year, with $40m in cap space. Rinse, recycle, repeat.

I understand your attempt at humor but such a bad take. Not a single poster has even hinted at this.

Several of those you are going back and forth with have said they would trade for Simmons. The sticking point is not Simmons, but what the Wolves would have to trade for him.

Yes it’s said in jest but have been on this board long enough to know we have posters that want to preserve capspace and picks/assets to trade for the perfect players/free agents that will never want to play in MN. I’ve seen what having capspace is like as a Twolves fan and it’s only good for overpaying free agents (that will later need to be dumped with assets) and/or acquiring bad contracts. How’s that been working out for OKC the last five years? Are they 5 years away from competing for a title? More? That just seems like a pitiful way to do business and run a franchise.

So not Simmons, fine. What’s the other play? How do we compete for a title in the next 2-3 years? Or is it time to trade Towns after what will most likely be yet another losing season and rebuild again? (e.g., rinse, recycle, repeat)

[thinktank]

Ben Simmons “refusing to dunk a ball” one time is officially way overblown.

Players make mistakes. Players aren’t perfect.

[shrink]

Ben Simmons “refusing to dunk a ball” one time is officially way overblown.

Players make mistakes. Players aren’t perfect.

Besides that play, did you watch the rest of the quarter? The game? The 34% FT shooting over the entire playoffs?

Refusing to dunk was the culmination of many many mistakes, which led to, and were caused by, a crisis of confidence (and several years worth of not improving his shooting). This play is just an exclamation point on a long pattern of behavior, and an exclamation point no opposing coach is going to ignore in their future game plans against Ben.

There is one thing represented in this post that is touched on by Krapinsky. Some Wolves fans are so desperate for any addition of talent, that they intentionally blind themselves to any negatives for a player the team may acquire. So intentionally blind, that they want to characterize Simmons obvious and longterm issues as a single mistake.

Do I think Simmons would be a huge help defensively? Of course! But a “real” assessment can’t ignore the issues his shooting causes, or how his contract would financially hamstring us for many years. If I am stressing the latter, it’s because of the disproportionate number of myopic, “I want to believe!” posts. What frustrates me most is that some of our best posters are doing it.

[thinktank]

I hear you, but I think that was an aberration. He’s just not that poor of a FT shooter and we have years of data to back that up.

Buy low!

[SO_MONEY]

Ben Simmons “refusing to dunk a ball” one time is officially way overblown.

Players make mistakes. Players aren’t perfect.

Besides that play, did you watch the rest of the quarter? The game? The 34% FT shooting over the entire playoffs?

Refusing to dunk was the culmination of many many mistakes, which led to, and were caused by, a crisis of confidence (and several years worth of not improving his shooting). This play is just an exclamation point on a long pattern of behavior, and an exclamation point no opposing coach is going to ignore in their future game plans against Ben.

There is one thing represented in this post that is touched on by Krapinsky. Some Wolves fans are so desperate for any addition of talent, that they intentionally blind themselves to any negatives for a player the team may acquire. So intentionally blind, that they want to characterize Simmons obvious and longterm issues as a single mistake.

Do I think Simmons would be a huge help defensively? Of course! But a “real” assessment can’t ignore the issues his shooting causes, or how his contract would financially hamstring us for many years. If I am stressing the latter, it’s because of these myopic, “I want to believe!” posts.

Simmons is a mental midget, but the playoff angle is not that important when weighted against the totality of his career. The reason he was paid so much was that he was young enough to expect improvement, it really hasn't happened and there are probably indications he is regressing. I think this becomes less of an issue, the less you count on him. You put him in a role as your 4th or 5th option, you remove some responsibilities and don't overwhelm him and cater this smaller role to putting him in positions to succeed, you might actually end up getting more out of him. A hard pill to swallow at $35mil, but it is his path for redemption.

[shrink]

I hear you, but I think that was an aberration. He’s just not that poor of a FT shooter and we have years of data to back that up.

Buy low!

Thanks. I think the pressure gets to him. He was 34% FT in this playoffs, but he’s only 52% career in all his playoffs games.

Does anyone have access to Second Spectrum, or some other good stat database? I’m curious what his FT% is in the final two minutes of close games in the regular season.

[SO_MONEY]

I hear you, but I think that was an aberration. He’s just not that poor of a FT shooter and we have years of data to back that up.

Buy low!

Thanks. I think the pressure gets to him. He was 34% FT in this playoffs, but he’s only 52% career in all his playoffs games.

Does anyone have access to Second Spectrum, or some other good stat database? I’m curious what his FT% is in the final two minutes of close games in the regular season.

I think it is correct to suspect he can't handle pressure. You have to take it off him, preferably you don't have players like this you hope there is no limit at what you can throw at them, but that is not Simmons. But under the right circumstances he probably doesn't kill you as bad as he could.

[Krapinsky]

https://www.nbcsports.com/philadelphia/video/flat-out-it-worked-marc-jackson-wizards-hack-ben-strategy

And

Watch on YouTube

And note, this was after the Wizards did this to him. Not at Atlanta.

I would worry about his chance of making future free throws after the Atlanta series is much worse. I don’t think anyone can deny his poor free throw shooting certainly affected Ben, with his unwillingness to touch the ball and not even dunking, as he tried to avoid getting fouled and being embarrassed nationally in a big game.

I hear what people are saying about his four year, regular season free throw rate, but I don’t think he was ever in as bad a place mentally now as he was at anytime in those four years. Worse, Ben has shown for many years now that has not been able to improve his shooting. I understand he is a great player defensively and has many other concerns, but it amazes me that people don’t have concerns about coaches in the future relying on “Hack-a-Ben.”

The one team that tried hack a Ben got beat by Ben pretty badly, then turned around and blew up their team.

Be fair. Washington was the #8 seed. They were often too far behind to do Hack-a-Ben in the fourth quarter. They were tied in Game 4, did Hack-a-Ben, and went on to win 122-114. Watch the video. To imply that the #8 seed losing because of Hack-a-Ben doesn’t seem fair.

The concerns about hack-a-Ben may be a little overblown. I just checked the highlights of the last three Eastern Conference Finals and not a single team employed that strategy.

Not sure what you mean, PHI didn’t reach the ECF. It was used against them by WAS in the first series, and it worked.

More importantly, I have stressed several times that I think teams in close games will use Hack-a-Ben in the future, after he was so badly exposed in the Sixers dramatic loss to the #5 seed, Atlanta. In that game, he refused to even dunk the ball, because he was so scared of being fouled and forced to shoot free throws.

Yes, but that's sort of the grander point here. You shouldn't be looking at the FT% end of game woes in a vacuum. The guy helped lead his team to a number 1 seed and home court in the playoffs. A more desperate team, trailing from behind, is typically one that will resort to a hack-a-player strategy. But the hack strategy has its limitation these days because you can't do it in the last two minutes anyway.

[kuclas]

The one team that tried hack a Ben got beat by Ben pretty badly, then turned around and blew up their team.

Be fair. Washington was the #8 seed. They were often too far behind to do Hack-a-Ben in the fourth quarter. They were tied in Game 4, did Hack-a-Ben, and went on to win 122-114. Watch the video. To imply that the #8 seed losing because of Hack-a-Ben doesn’t seem fair.

The concerns about hack-a-Ben may be a little overblown. I just checked the highlights of the last three Eastern Conference Finals and not a single team employed that strategy.

Not sure what you mean, PHI didn’t reach the ECF. It was used against them by WAS in the first series, and it worked.

More importantly, I have stressed several times that I think teams in close games will use Hack-a-Ben in the future, after he was so badly exposed in the Sixers dramatic loss to the #5 seed, Atlanta. In that game, he refused to even dunk the ball, because he was so scared of being fouled and forced to shoot free throws.

Yes, but that's sort of the grander point here. You shouldn't be looking at the FT% end of game woes in a vacuum. The guy helped lead his team to a number 1 seed and home court in the playoffs. A more desperate team, trailing from behind, is typically one that will resort to a hack-a-player strategy. But the hack strategy has its limitation these days because you can't do it in the last two minutes anyway.

Hack a Ben works not because of
The free throws. It works because it ruins the offensive rhythm of the game.

The Sixers were thrown out of their rhythm up by 10 I game 5 (the game they lost a 26 point lead). Still
Sixers were up by 10 with 3 and a half minutes left.

So they were out of sorts having to take out their primary ballhandler. And worst was doc rivers putting in an equally poor shooter (thybulle in Simmons
Slot of offense with Simmons out)

So coaching contributing Sixers lost. If doc rivers had recognized Clint capela who shot an equally horrible 33% free throws and look shook from the free Throw line. The minute hawks did hack a Ben. Rivers should
Have hacked a capela. The game would have ended in Sixers favor. Cause capela wouldn’t have bricked free throws and hawks would
Have had to pull capela and become even smaller with no one to defend Embiid.