Trade Talk (Part Eight)

[gandlogo]

The concerns about hack-a-Ben may be a little overblown. I just checked the highlights of the last three Eastern Conference Finals and not a single team employed that strategy.

Not sure what you mean, PHI didn’t reach the ECF. It was used against them by WAS in the first series, and it worked.

Exactly. Despite being on a more talented team and in a weaker conference, the highly vaunted Simmons propelled his team deep into the playoffs zero times. So the hack-a-Ben is a reason I remain anti-Simmons, but it is far from the only reason.

[Battletrigger]

This board is a joke sometimes. People rejecting a Simmons trade because in PO opponents might take advantage of his weakness.

Man, we have only made PO once since KG era, we need people to take the team to PO first and then we can worry about PO.

[winforlose]

This board is a joke sometimes. People rejecting a Simmons trade because in PO opponents might take advantage of his weakness.

Man, we have only made PO once since KG era, we need people to take the team to PO first and then we can worry about PO.

Since everyone seems to ignore it when I say it, read this.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/bryantoporek/2021/06/21/sixers-must-shop-ben-simmons-after-meltdown-against-atlanta-hawks/

[shrink]

Be fair. Washington was the #8 seed. They were often too far behind to do Hack-a-Ben in the fourth quarter. They were tied in Game 4, did Hack-a-Ben, and went on to win 122-114. Watch the video. To imply that the #8 seed losing because of Hack-a-Ben doesn’t seem fair.



Not sure what you mean, PHI didn’t reach the ECF. It was used against them by WAS in the first series, and it worked.

More importantly, I have stressed several times that I think teams in close games will use Hack-a-Ben in the future, after he was so badly exposed in the Sixers dramatic loss to the #5 seed, Atlanta. In that game, he refused to even dunk the ball, because he was so scared of being fouled and forced to shoot free throws.

Yes, but that's sort of the grander point here. You shouldn't be looking at the FT% end of game woes in a vacuum. The guy helped lead his team to a number 1 seed and home court in the playoffs. A more desperate team, trailing from behind, is typically one that will resort to a hack-a-player strategy. But the hack strategy has its limitation these days because you can't do it in the last two minutes anyway.

Hack a Ben works not because of
The free throws. It works because it ruins the offensive rhythm of the game.

The Sixers were thrown out of their rhythm up by 10 I game 5 (the game they lost a 26 point lead). Still
Sixers were up by 10 with 3 and a half minutes left.

So they were out of sorts having to take out their primary ballhandler. And worst was doc rivers putting in an equally poor shooter (thybulle in Simmons
Slot of offense with Simmons out)

So coaching contributing Sixers lost. If doc rivers had recognized Clint capela who shot an equally horrible 33% free throws and look shook from the free Throw line. The minute hawks did hack a Ben. Rivers should
Have hacked a capela. The game would have ended in Sixers favor. Cause capela wouldn’t have bricked free throws and hawks would
Have had to pull capela and become even smaller with no one to defend Embiid.

In general, I agree. While I don’t think you can discount missing free throws in late games (we all know how important free throws are in this situation), the disruption to the team offense is another big factor. Some analysts say that since Simmons was the team’s primary ball handler and fouling him disrupted the offense, that it is even more effective than hack-a-Shaq.

The bottom line is, if Simmons FT decline in pressure situations can be reversed, teams won’t foul him, and this problem goes away. I just don’t see why anyone is optimistic that this will occur.

[Dewey]

This board is a joke sometimes. People rejecting a Simmons trade because in PO opponents might take advantage of his weakness.

Man, we have only made PO once since KG era, we need people to take the team to PO first and then we can worry about PO.

Ya, currently we …
-Are not a playoff team
-Have no team leader
-Have Proven to be poor defensively
Ya, no need to upgrade

[shrink]

This board is a joke sometimes. People rejecting a Simmons trade because in PO opponents might take advantage of his weakness.

Man, we have only made PO once since KG era, we need people to take the team to PO first and then we can worry about PO.

Ya, currently we …
-Are not a playoff team
-Have no team leader
-Have Proven to be poor defensively
Ya, no need to upgrade

Yes, that’s exactly what people are saying. “No need to upgrade.”

Thanks for the insightful contribution

Nobody has said “there is no need to upgrade.” This is what I did say ..

Some Wolves fans are so desperate for any addition of talent, that they intentionally blind themselves to any negatives for a player the team may acquire. So intentionally blind, that they want to characterize Simmons obvious and longterm issues as a single mistake.

Do I think Simmons would be a huge help defensively? Of course! But a “real” assessment can’t ignore the issues his shooting causes, or how his contract would financially hamstring us for many years. If I am stressing the latter, it’s because of the disproportionate number of myopic, “I want to believe!” posts.

[Klomp]

The funny thing is the chatter about Simmons being such a negative contract never really started until this postseason. If it was so bad, it would've been bad before.

I mean value changes based on perception in addition to statistical value.

That's just life. Company X says something stupid and stock goes down. It's financials don't change at all.

So you're saying that value can change now? I thought Simmons was destined to be on a horrible contract for the duration of his tenure? I guess the only possible change is down, his value is not allowed to improve....

[Krapinsky]

The concerns about hack-a-Ben may be a little overblown. I just checked the highlights of the last three Eastern Conference Finals and not a single team employed that strategy.

Not sure what you mean, PHI didn’t reach the ECF. It was used against them by WAS in the first series, and it worked.

Exactly. Despite being on a more talented team and in a weaker conference, the highly vaunted Simmons propelled his team deep into the playoffs zero times. So the hack-a-Ben is a reason I remain anti-Simmons, but it is far from the only reason.

Meh, you could have said the same thing about Giannis three months ago.

Watch on YouTube

Sixers were a lucky Kwahi bounce away from losing game 7 to the eventual champion Raptors. You might recall that this was a series where Embiid and Harris played like crap. Butler shot 25% from 3 that series and hasn't topped that mark in two seasons since.

Basketball is a game of funny bounces like that. If Durant's toe isn't on the line and Nets beat the Bucks, would the Bucks have fired their coach? Would people be making the same Giannis arguments they are making against Simmons?

[shrink]

The funny thing is the chatter about Simmons being such a negative contract never really started until this postseason. If it was so bad, it would've been bad before.

I mean value changes based on perception in addition to statistical value.

That's just life. Company X says something stupid and stock goes down. It's financials don't change at all.

So you're saying that value can change now? I thought Simmons was destined to be on a horrible contract for the duration of his tenure? I guess the only possible change is down, his value is not allowed to improve....

I’m getting tired of people intentionally mistating other people’s positions …

Nobody said this.

[Merc_Porto]

In this talk about Simmons, we are probably forgetting something really important...
If the problem for Minnesota POV is to give Dlo... (Which I doubt, that would be hilarious if was the reason)

Let's put it this way then, why the hell Philadelphia would want Dlo in the first place? They probably don't want him at all. Nobody wants that contract, let's be serious.
And that is why a trade wasn't made yet and a 3rd team is needed.

McDaniels + Beasley + player from a 3rd team to Philly
Picks to a third team

I would say Russell is the better contract, worse player, so if no one wants his contract, why would they want Simmons'? Clearly to get the better player, but only if they are best suited to forgo flexibility. The same types of teams would target both players

I don't think MN wants to give up a PG and create that hole in the lineup and they are not going to want to give up McDaniels on a great contract when he replicates what you would be trading for defeating the point of the trade, while also costing additional assets and flexibility. In short they want to balance the staring 5.

Simmons and Russell would be targets of teams that want to add a last piece...not create holes to build around.

I don't think you are creating any holes by getting Ben. I think people need to understand that building around a trio like Ben-KAT-Ant is way better than anything we have right now. By far, there is no comparison.

KAT - 25
BEN - 25
ANT - 20

This trio ceiling is unbelievably high. It got everything, shooting, defense, playmaking.
Of course, we would need a bunch of shooters to make this work but with that, we would worry later.

[Klomp]

I mean value changes based on perception in addition to statistical value.

That's just life. Company X says something stupid and stock goes down. It's financials don't change at all.

So you're saying that value can change now? I thought Simmons was destined to be on a horrible contract for the duration of his tenure? I guess the only possible change is down, his value is not allowed to improve....

I’m getting tired of people intentionally mistating other people’s positions …

Nobody said this.

You're right, many posters haven't said his value could improve here to where it's no longer a bad contract....

[shrink]

So you're saying that value can change now? I thought Simmons was destined to be on a horrible contract for the duration of his tenure? I guess the only possible change is down, his value is not allowed to improve....

I’m getting tired of people intentionally mistating other people’s positions …

Nobody said this.

You're right, many posters haven't said his value could improve here to where it's no longer a bad contract....

Sorry. I think I need a break from this board.

[SO_MONEY]

In this talk about Simmons, we are probably forgetting something really important...
If the problem for Minnesota POV is to give Dlo... (Which I doubt, that would be hilarious if was the reason)

Let's put it this way then, why the hell Philadelphia would want Dlo in the first place? They probably don't want him at all. Nobody wants that contract, let's be serious.
And that is why a trade wasn't made yet and a 3rd team is needed.

McDaniels + Beasley + player from a 3rd team to Philly
Picks to a third team

I would say Russell is the better contract, worse player, so if no one wants his contract, why would they want Simmons'? Clearly to get the better player, but only if they are best suited to forgo flexibility. The same types of teams would target both players

I don't think MN wants to give up a PG and create that hole in the lineup and they are not going to want to give up McDaniels on a great contract when he replicates what you would be trading for defeating the point of the trade, while also costing additional assets and flexibility. In short they want to balance the staring 5.

Simmons and Russell would be targets of teams that want to add a last piece...not create holes to build around.

I don't think you are creating any holes by getting Ben. I think people need to understand that building around a trio like Ben-KAT-Ant is way better than anything we have right now. By far, there is no comparison.

KAT - 25
BEN - 25
ANT - 20

This trio ceiling is unbelievably high. It got everything, shooting, defense, playmaking.
Of course, we would need a bunch of shooters to make this work but with that, we would worry later.

You are creating a hole at PG, a much harder hole to fill, that often takes years of development. So, no. I wouldn't sabotage ourselves like that and waste the prime years of KAT without some kind of stability there.

[Krapinsky]

Some Wolves fans are so desperate for any addition of talent, that they intentionally blind themselves to any negatives for a player the team may acquire. So intentionally blind, that they want to characterize Simmons obvious and longterm issues as a single mistake.

Do I think Simmons would be a huge help defensively? Of course! But a “real” assessment can’t ignore the issues his shooting causes, or how his contract would financially hamstring us for many years. If I am stressing the latter, it’s because of the disproportionate number of myopic, “I want to believe!” posts.

[/quote]

Perhaps i'm guilty here, but I'm a firm believer that every player the Wolves can acquire is going to have warts so we have to accept the good with the bad. Generational talents like Curry, Durant, Lebron, Giannis, Harden, etc., or the next version thereof, aren't ever going to choose to play in Minnesota. History tells us that, Russell being just the latest example.

[KGdaBom]

The ideal team for a MN wolves fan is 5 Jaden McDaniels-esque players starting (making $2m per year on a rookie deal) going 0-82 and drafting #1 every year, with $40m in cap space. Rinse, recycle, repeat.

I understand your attempt at humor but such a bad take. Not a single poster has even hinted at this.

Several of those you are going back and forth with have said they would trade for Simmons. The sticking point is not Simmons, but what the Wolves would have to trade for him.

True, but when Jaden McDaniels is the sticking point for a young all star that's just wrong.

[SO_MONEY]

The ideal team for a MN wolves fan is 5 Jaden McDaniels-esque players starting (making $2m per year on a rookie deal) going 0-82 and drafting #1 every year, with $40m in cap space. Rinse, recycle, repeat.

I understand your attempt at humor but such a bad take. Not a single poster has even hinted at this.

Several of those you are going back and forth with have said they would trade for Simmons. The sticking point is not Simmons, but what the Wolves would have to trade for him.

True, but when Jaden McDaniels is the sticking point for a young all star that's just wrong.

It isn't wrong though when that young "all-star" shouldn't be an all-star, hope for improvement is diminished and is paid $35mil.

You are supporting trading a 4th option defender with massive upside making $2mil for a 4th option defender with questionable upside making $35mil. I don't think there is a place on this planet where that is advisable.

[Baseline81]

True, but when Jaden McDaniels is the sticking point for a young all star that's just wrong.

We honestly don't know that to be the case. For some fans of this team, it is. For Rosas...

[Merc_Porto]

I would say Russell is the better contract, worse player, so if no one wants his contract, why would they want Simmons'? Clearly to get the better player, but only if they are best suited to forgo flexibility. The same types of teams would target both players

I don't think MN wants to give up a PG and create that hole in the lineup and they are not going to want to give up McDaniels on a great contract when he replicates what you would be trading for defeating the point of the trade, while also costing additional assets and flexibility. In short they want to balance the staring 5.

Simmons and Russell would be targets of teams that want to add a last piece...not create holes to build around.

I don't think you are creating any holes by getting Ben. I think people need to understand that building around a trio like Ben-KAT-Ant is way better than anything we have right now. By far, there is no comparison.

KAT - 25
BEN - 25
ANT - 20

This trio ceiling is unbelievably high. It got everything, shooting, defense, playmaking.
Of course, we would need a bunch of shooters to make this work but with that, we would worry later.

You are creating a hole at PG, a much harder hole to fill, that often takes years of development. So, no. I wouldn't sabotage ourselves like that and waste the prime years of KAT without some kind of stability there.

The PG hole is going to be filled by Ben. The guy that is top on the list to find 3pt shooters for example.
And in this case, he's going to be in a way better situation with KAT than Embiid. And a perfect guard in Beverley to play alongside.
There is nothing to sabotage here because we don't have that much to sabotage something.
We have to make moves, real moves. And is not a move of desperation, is to make a move to get better right away.

Another non-playoff season and KAT is demanding a trade with 2 years left on his contract, no doubt about that.

[SO_MONEY]

I don't think you are creating any holes by getting Ben. I think people need to understand that building around a trio like Ben-KAT-Ant is way better than anything we have right now. By far, there is no comparison.

KAT - 25
BEN - 25
ANT - 20

This trio ceiling is unbelievably high. It got everything, shooting, defense, playmaking.
Of course, we would need a bunch of shooters to make this work but with that, we would worry later.

You are creating a hole at PG, a much harder hole to fill, that often takes years of development. So, no. I wouldn't sabotage ourselves like that and waste the prime years of KAT without some kind of stability there.

The PG hole is going to be filled by Ben. The guy that is top on the list to find 3pt shooters for example.
And in this case, he's going to be in a way better situation with KAT than Embiid. And a perfect guard in Beverley to play alongside.
There is nothing to sabotage here because we don't have that much to sabotage something.
We have to make moves, real moves. And is not a move of desperation, is to make a move to get better right away.

Another non-playoff season and KAT is demanding a trade at end of the season with 2 years left on his contract, no doubt about that.

Ben is not a PG and I wouldn't want him and would be unwilling to trade for him at all if that is where he is playing. The only place he belongs is PF.

[Merc_Porto]

You are creating a hole at PG, a much harder hole to fill, that often takes years of development. So, no. I wouldn't sabotage ourselves like that and waste the prime years of KAT without some kind of stability there.

The PG hole is going to be filled by Ben. The guy that is top on the list to find 3pt shooters for example.
And in this case, he's going to be in a way better situation with KAT than Embiid. And a perfect guard in Beverley to play alongside.
There is nothing to sabotage here because we don't have that much to sabotage something.
We have to make moves, real moves. And is not a move of desperation, is to make a move to get better right away.

Another non-playoff season and KAT is demanding a trade at end of the season with 2 years left on his contract, no doubt about that.

Ben is not a PG and I wouldn't want him and would be unwilling to trade for him at all if that is where he is playing. The only place he belongs is PF.

Ben can be many things, one of them is to be one of the best playmakers in the league.
He can play several positions. At any of those positions one thing is for sure, he's better than Dlo at every single one.