Trade Talk (Part Eight)

[KGdaBom]

This is a strange comparison. Both Porter and Isaac have seen their careers derailed by injuries at young age and can hardly stay on the court now. Are there any other examples of healthy players that would reflect your opinion of McDaniels' unrealized upside?

I think Taurean Prince when he was a rising star a few years ago, but he was putting up much bigger numbers than McDaniels has so far. Who's the guy who went from Washington to Phoenix and has now moved on again? I can't recall his name, but he could be a good comparison for McDaniels to grow into.

Maybe you are thinking of oubre. Personnally not a fan of his. Ok on ball but poor team defender. Can score but one of the worst passing wings. Doesnt make anyone better.

Hoping for better.

Yep it was Kelly Oubre Jr. I had him putting up good stats for my fantasy teams so I'm biased.

[Krapinsky]

He can't answer because it is marginally different than what Simmons puts up and he knows it will expose his terrible assessment of how you commit the difference in salary. He knows it, I know it, the entire board knows it. And this isn't even Simmons vs McDaniels, because more would need to be outgoing.

The unrealzied upside of Mcdaniels is Jonathan Isaac or Otto Porter in my opinion. That's if everything works out. That is a level far below the realized version of Ben Simmons that we have now. And by the time Mcdaniels adds 20 lbs and eventually realizes that potential (big if), it will be time to pay him is market rate. Until then, do you want to win now and maximize Towns/Russell's prime or no?

This is a strange comparison. Both Porter and Isaac have seen their careers derailed by injuries at young age and can hardly stay on the court now. Are there any other examples of healthy players that would reflect your opinion of McDaniels' unrealized upside?

I ran a stat search of players that played meaningful minutes their age 20 season and had a PER of less than 10. The best players in the database of about 125 players were Sabonis, Isaac, and Porter.

[KGdaBom]

This is a strange comparison. Both Porter and Isaac have seen their careers derailed by injuries at young age and can hardly stay on the court now. Are there any other examples of healthy players that would reflect your opinion of McDaniels' unrealized upside?

I think Taurean Prince when he was a rising star a few years ago, but he was putting up much bigger numbers than McDaniels has so far. Who's the guy who went from Washington to Phoenix and has now moved on again? I can't recall his name, but he could be a good comparison for McDaniels to grow into.

You must have a much looser definition for "rising star" than I do.

McDaniels was a 20 year old rookie last year. His stats last year were better than Prince's were as a 22 year old rookie. If Prince ends up being McDaniels' ceiling, it will basically mean that McDaniels hasn't improved much at all from his rookie year. Furthermore, I'm not sure if this comparison holds since Prince is an average at best defender, while McDaniels projects to be much better than that.

For the record, I would agree that it's unlikely that McDaniels will reach the level Simmons is currently at. That being said, in a trade for Simmons, I would be very hesitant to send out McDaniels because he's a perfect fit on the court with Simmons (3&D).

Prince was putting up nice numbers. These things may miss notice from the average fan, but as an avid fantasy player I have to keep my eye out for such. If McDaniels takes a large step up this year he will be putting up the numbers that Prince was. Now it's likely that McDaniels will also be playing better D.

[Krapinsky]

The unrealzied upside of Mcdaniels is Jonathan Isaac or Otto Porter in my opinion. That's if everything works out. That is a level far below the realized version of Ben Simmons that we have now. And by the time Mcdaniels adds 20 lbs and eventually realizes that potential (big if), it will be time to pay him is market rate. Until then, do you want to win now and maximize Towns/Russell's prime or no?

This is a strange comparison. Both Porter and Isaac have seen their careers derailed by injuries at young age and can hardly stay on the court now. Are there any other examples of healthy players that would reflect your opinion of McDaniels' unrealized upside?

I ran a stat search of players that played meaningful minutes their age 20 season and had a PER of less than 10. The best players in the database of about 125 players were Sabonis, Isaac, and Porter.

I can't duplicate what I did previously, but here is a more refined search:

https://stathead.com/tiny/RiEKX

[_AIJ_]

Im all for trading for Simmons if the price is right

[Klomp]

Put another way - as a Warriors fan, I'd be way more concerned having to go against a team with Simmons, KAT, Edwards, and Russell than any incarnation that doesn't include Simmons.

Exactly. And I can guarantee you that the teams would feel the same way.

Why is this important? When a team has more players for the opponent to worry about, the opponent is more likely to have lapses to one side. Simmons, even with his flaws, will draw more defensive attention away from Towns and Edwards than say Beasley and/or McDaniels might.

[KGdaBom]

Im all for trading for Simmons if the price is right

I'm all for trading for anybody if the price is right. I don't want to trade for anybody if the price is wrong.

[Klomp]

Projected stats over the next 3 years please?

What you are saying is empty otherwise if you are not assessing the difference between the two players and what the $33mil difference is worth.

Can you tell me what the Wolves are going to use that extra 33m on with no cap space either way? At least over the next few years unless we start dumping some of our “stars.”

Can you answer my question, before asking your own?

And the answer of your question is easy.

If you are willing to trade expirings and a 1st, there is a pathway to keep Beasley, Reid, forget McDaniels and add a starting PF. A more likely pathway leads to keeping one of Beasley or Reid and gaining a starting PF. Literally, we could likely get Lauri for expirings and a 1st right now. Gordon could again be a target as he will be a UFA and DEN might not want to pay him. There are options other than Simmons.

While those individual options may not cost $33 million, they do not all cost $2 million either. Some of them won't be much cheaper than Simmons, if at all. Gordon, for example, wouldn't surprise me if he hit $25 million on his next deal. Markkanen will probably be around $15 million too. So you're not talking about a handful of other pieces, it's more like two. And you're still sending out one or two pieces in order to get them, so it's not all that different in the end.

[KGdaBom]

Can you tell me what the Wolves are going to use that extra 33m on with no cap space either way? At least over the next few years unless we start dumping some of our “stars.”

Can you answer my question, before asking your own?

And the answer of your question is easy.

If you are willing to trade expirings and a 1st, there is a pathway to keep Beasley, Reid, forget McDaniels and add a starting PF. A more likely pathway leads to keeping one of Beasley or Reid and gaining a starting PF. Literally, we could likely get Lauri for expirings and a 1st right now. Gordon could again be a target as he will be a UFA and DEN might not want to pay him. There are options other than Simmons.

While those individual options may not cost $33 million, they do not all cost $2 million either. Some of them won't be much cheaper than Simmons, if at all. Gordon, for example, wouldn't surprise me if he hit $25 million on his next deal. Markkanen will probably be around $15 million too. So you're not talking about a handful of other pieces, it's more like two. And you're still sending out one or two pieces in order to get them, so it's not all that different in the end.

Quality wins in the NBA. Quantity doesn't mean much. That's why star players get paid so much.

[TheProdigy]

This is a strange comparison. Both Porter and Isaac have seen their careers derailed by injuries at young age and can hardly stay on the court now. Are there any other examples of healthy players that would reflect your opinion of McDaniels' unrealized upside?

I ran a stat search of players that played meaningful minutes their age 20 season and had a PER of less than 10. The best players in the database of about 125 players were Sabonis, Isaac, and Porter.

I can't duplicate what I did previously, but here is a more refined search:

https://stathead.com/tiny/RiEKX

OG Anunoby and Jerami Grant are on that list. I think most fans would be happy if McDaniels reached that level. That's the ideal type of player to surround Ant, KAT, and, DLo with.

[TaylorTag]

The more I think about it, the more I don’t like Simmons next to Ant. I know the idea of Simmons as a big next to KAT seems nice, but in reality I think Ben would essential usurp Ant’s role as a primary ball handler.

Ideally, we’d have Ant take over the offense at times with D’Lo off-ball as a shooting threat. With Ben Simmons in the lineup I’m not sure how that would work. Would Ben embrace a role where he’s just in the dunker’s spot the whole time? Is that even a good use of him?

I’m of the opinion we need a big who can be a rim protector. We go all in on Simmons and sure our defense would be better, but Simmons doesn’t exactly provide what we need on the defensive-end.. Hell, Vando and him are kind of similar players on that end of the floor.

Wrote all of this to say maybe Larry Nance Jr makes more sense for us because he (a) fits KAT’s timeline, (b) is a versatile defender who can defend Centers when called upon (c) is a low-usage big on the offensive end who won’t cannibalize the offense.

Im not all that concern about the two timelines narrative some in the media are droning on about. Im more concerned about basketball fit when it comes to Ant, and I can’t really think of a worse player to have on the court with him than Simmons. Either Ben has the ball in his hand or he’s near the rim. Both scenarios aren’t great for Ant because the last thing we need is a big clogging the lane.

We go all in on Ben and I am afraid we become pregnant with a Big 3 that’s great in a vacuum but not with the other pieces we value, pieces we may have to give up in a Simmons trade..

Could we somehow swing a Nance Jr trade around Okogie and Layman instead?

[jscott]

Could we somehow swing a Nance Jr trade around Okogie and Layman instead?

Nope. You are way off on value as Okogie and Layman have zero while Nance has multiple teams reportedly chasing him.

We probably missed our chance when we didn’t even ask about him as we sent Rubio to the Cavs.

[jpatrick]

The more I think about it, the more I don’t like Simmons next to Ant. I know the idea of Simmons as a big next to KAT seems nice, but in reality I think Ben would essential usurp Ant’s role as a primary ball handler.

Ideally, we’d have Ant take over the offense at times with D’Lo off-ball as a shooting threat. With Ben Simmons in the lineup I’m not sure how that would work. Would Ben embrace a role where he’s just in the dunker’s spot the whole time? Is that even a good use of him?

I’m of the opinion we need a big who can be a rim protector. We go all in on Simmons and sure our defense would be better, but Simmons doesn’t exactly provide what we need on the defensive-end.. Hell, Vando and him are kind of similar players on that end of the floor.

Wrote all of this to say maybe Larry Nance Jr makes more sense for us because he (a) fits KAT’s timeline, (b) is a versatile defender who can defend Centers when called upon (c) is a low-usage big on the offensive end who won’t cannibalize the offense.

Im not all that concern about the two timelines narrative some in the media are droning on about. Im more concerned about basketball fit when it comes to Ant, and I can’t really think of a worse player to have on the court with him than Simmons. Either Ben has the ball in his hand or he’s near the rim. Both scenarios aren’t great for Ant because the last thing we need is a big clogging the lane.

We go all in on Ben and I am afraid we become pregnant with a Big 3 that’s great in a vacuum but not with the other pieces we value, pieces we may have to give up in a Simmons trade..

Could we somehow swing a Nance Jr trade around Okogie and Layman instead?

Nance moves the needle zero. If it was him or nothing, sure. Rosas is after big swings though. I don’t know how Finch would use Simmons, but I highly doubt it’d be as a primary ball handler in the half court. That’s just not Simmons’ strength. People sag off him too much. He’d be much better as a cutter, dunker spot, pick man in the pick in roll. The beautiful thing about Simmons is that with his BBIQ, he’ll find the open man (well except when he passed on that dunk in the playoffs).

This is critical as Finch has said he’s getting rid of the highly structure Wolves’ offense that was here under Saunders and wants a more free flowing system (I’m thinking Spurs type offense), which requires less ball pounding and more quick passing. Speaking of the Spurs, one of Simmons’ biggest fans is Pop, which makes sense with that system.

In fact, if I were betting where Simmons ends up,
My guess is Kings or Spurs.

[KGdaBom]

The more I think about it, the more I don’t like Simmons next to Ant. I know the idea of Simmons as a big next to KAT seems nice, but in reality I think Ben would essential usurp Ant’s role as a primary ball handler.

Ideally, we’d have Ant take over the offense at times with D’Lo off-ball as a shooting threat. With Ben Simmons in the lineup I’m not sure how that would work. Would Ben embrace a role where he’s just in the dunker’s spot the whole time? Is that even a good use of him?

I’m of the opinion we need a big who can be a rim protector. We go all in on Simmons and sure our defense would be better, but Simmons doesn’t exactly provide what we need on the defensive-end.. Hell, Vando and him are kind of similar players on that end of the floor.

Wrote all of this to say maybe Larry Nance Jr makes more sense for us because he (a) fits KAT’s timeline, (b) is a versatile defender who can defend Centers when called upon (c) is a low-usage big on the offensive end who won’t cannibalize the offense.

Im not all that concern about the two timelines narrative some in the media are droning on about. Im more concerned about basketball fit when it comes to Ant, and I can’t really think of a worse player to have on the court with him than Simmons. Either Ben has the ball in his hand or he’s near the rim. Both scenarios aren’t great for Ant because the last thing we need is a big clogging the lane.

We go all in on Ben and I am afraid we become pregnant with a Big 3 that’s great in a vacuum but not with the other pieces we value, pieces we may have to give up in a Simmons trade..

Could we somehow swing a Nance Jr trade around Okogie and Layman instead?

If the Cavs were to take Okogie and Layman in a Nance deal we would be giving two FRPs.

[winforlose]

So on the Nance Jr side of things I had an idea but I haven’t run the trade machine and would love some ideas on how to improve the rough outline. We send our first lottery protected and Vando via sign and trade to the Grizzlies, Grizzlies send Dillion Brooks and a second to Cleveland, Cleveland sends us Nance Jr. We could also include Layman in the deal if the money is an issue, and this would likely put us over the tax line, but it seems to work for everyone.

Wolves get a solid PF who can play either starter or backup. Griz get a first as well as young player with upside, Cavs get a starting level Shooting guard on a reasonable contract.

[Norseman79]

People, if they can land Simmons without giving up the other four starters it is a NO BRAINER. The fact is no one knows how Finch would use him, but he has never played with a decent point guard. He may just surprise people when he can just play basketball instead of trying to create and facilitate for the entire team.

[NebWolvesFan]

The more I think about it, the more I don’t like Simmons next to Ant. I know the idea of Simmons as a big next to KAT seems nice, but in reality I think Ben would essential usurp Ant’s role as a primary ball handler.

Ideally, we’d have Ant take over the offense at times with D’Lo off-ball as a shooting threat. With Ben Simmons in the lineup I’m not sure how that would work. Would Ben embrace a role where he’s just in the dunker’s spot the whole time? Is that even a good use of him?

I’m of the opinion we need a big who can be a rim protector. We go all in on Simmons and sure our defense would be better, but Simmons doesn’t exactly provide what we need on the defensive-end.. Hell, Vando and him are kind of similar players on that end of the floor.

Wrote all of this to say maybe Larry Nance Jr makes more sense for us because he (a) fits KAT’s timeline, (b) is a versatile defender who can defend Centers when called upon (c) is a low-usage big on the offensive end who won’t cannibalize the offense.

Im not all that concern about the two timelines narrative some in the media are droning on about. Im more concerned about basketball fit when it comes to Ant, and I can’t really think of a worse player to have on the court with him than Simmons. Either Ben has the ball in his hand or he’s near the rim. Both scenarios aren’t great for Ant because the last thing we need is a big clogging the lane.

We go all in on Ben and I am afraid we become pregnant with a Big 3 that’s great in a vacuum but not with the other pieces we value, pieces we may have to give up in a Simmons trade..

Could we somehow swing a Nance Jr trade around Okogie and Layman instead?

If the Cavs were to take Okogie and Layman in a Nance deal we would be giving two FRPs.

As Golden State will tell you, one Timberwolves FRP is worth 2 if not 3 normal teams first round picks.

I mean would rather have Minnesota's 2022 pick or two Dallas first round picks.

[winforlose]

People, if they can land Simmons without giving up the other four starters it is a NO BRAINER. The fact is no one knows how Finch would use him, but he has never played with a decent point guard. He may just surprise people when he can just play basketball instead of trying to create and facilitate for the entire team.

This just doesn’t make sense to me. He cannot jump shoot. His major upside is his ball handling and the defensive mismatches his size creates. If you play next to a PG then the other team will have their PG guard ours and their big guard him. Also, other than the roller in pick and role or in the low post there isn’t much for Simmons to do in our offense. You saw last season how well it worked when ED Davis was parked behind the 3 point line. Simmons is as much of a non shooter as Davis and thus will be completely ignored.

[minimus]

Small trade if no other big trade happens. We have three 2nd round picks next year. Nowell, 2nd round pick for Robert Woodard II

Watch on YouTube

Why for MIN: balance roster with defensive minded comboforward
Why for SAC: get more assets

KAT/Reid + Knight
Vando/MCD/Woodard
MCD/Prince/Layman
Edwards/Beasley/Okogie
DLo/Beverly/Bolmaro + Wright

[KGdaBom]

The more I think about it, the more I don’t like Simmons next to Ant. I know the idea of Simmons as a big next to KAT seems nice, but in reality I think Ben would essential usurp Ant’s role as a primary ball handler.

Ideally, we’d have Ant take over the offense at times with D’Lo off-ball as a shooting threat. With Ben Simmons in the lineup I’m not sure how that would work. Would Ben embrace a role where he’s just in the dunker’s spot the whole time? Is that even a good use of him?

I’m of the opinion we need a big who can be a rim protector. We go all in on Simmons and sure our defense would be better, but Simmons doesn’t exactly provide what we need on the defensive-end.. Hell, Vando and him are kind of similar players on that end of the floor.

Wrote all of this to say maybe Larry Nance Jr makes more sense for us because he (a) fits KAT’s timeline, (b) is a versatile defender who can defend Centers when called upon (c) is a low-usage big on the offensive end who won’t cannibalize the offense.

Im not all that concern about the two timelines narrative some in the media are droning on about. Im more concerned about basketball fit when it comes to Ant, and I can’t really think of a worse player to have on the court with him than Simmons. Either Ben has the ball in his hand or he’s near the rim. Both scenarios aren’t great for Ant because the last thing we need is a big clogging the lane.

We go all in on Ben and I am afraid we become pregnant with a Big 3 that’s great in a vacuum but not with the other pieces we value, pieces we may have to give up in a Simmons trade..

Could we somehow swing a Nance Jr trade around Okogie and Layman instead?

Nance moves the needle zero. If it was him or nothing, sure. Rosas is after big swings though. I don’t know how Finch would use Simmons, but I highly doubt it’d be as a primary ball handler in the half court. That’s just not Simmons’ strength. People sag off him too much. He’d be much better as a cutter, dunker spot, pick man in the pick in roll. The beautiful thing about Simmons is that with his BBIQ, he’ll find the open man (well except when he passed on that dunk in the playoffs).

This is critical as Finch has said he’s getting rid of the highly structure Wolves’ offense that was here under Saunders and wants a more free flowing system (I’m thinking Spurs type offense), which requires less ball pounding and more quick passing. Speaking of the Spurs, one of Simmons’ biggest fans is Pop, which makes sense with that system.

In fact, if I were betting where Simmons ends up,
My guess is Kings or Spurs.

I don't understand you saying Nance moves the needle zero. IMO he's an almost perfect complement to our existing team.