****Non-Draft Related Basketball Discourse****

[Marcus]

I wasn't shooting for catchy so much as for str8 to the point. Not sure why this hasn't been done before, don't judge me. But all things basketball we want to talk about that's not draft related, I'd like to have discussed in here. I like the crew here and i like the knowledge and insight presented so i wanted to provide an option/outlet that wasn't GB environment or homer perspective filled.


HAVE AT IT FAMILY

[Ruzious]

I'm probably late to the party on this, but the position of power forward... no longer exists. I was looking at the Wizards roster - seeing they have several "power forwards" but no real PF's that can rebound and pound away on defense, so I looked to see who they might trade for to do that. Almost every PF in the NBA averages less than 9 rebounds per 36 minutes - and most average under 8. Back in the day, respectable PF's got you 10 rebounds per 36. Even the great 7 foot Anthony Davis is under 9 now. Giannis is the outlier, but he's... a freak and plays some center, and he plays with Brook Lopez - who's the best at blocking out without actually getting rebounds. One other exception - and I didn't even think about him - Jared Vanderbilt of Minnesota - an outstanding 11.6. If he stays healthy and learns to shoot (both big ifs for him), he can be a star, imo.

[clyde21]

I'm probably late to the party on this, but the position of power forward... no longer exists. I was looking at the Wizards roster - seeing they have several "power forwards" but no real PF's that can rebound and pound away on defense, so I looked to see who they might trade for to do that. Almost every PF in the NBA averages less than 9 rebounds per 36 minutes - and most average under 8. Back in the day, respectable PF's got you 10 rebounds per 36. Even the great 7 foot Anthony Davis is under 9 now. Giannis is the outlier, but he's... a freak and plays some center, and he plays with Brook Lopez - who's the best at blocking out without actually getting rebounds. One other exception - and I didn't even think about him - Jared Vanderbilt of Minnesota - an outstanding 11.6. If he stays healthy and learns to shoot (both big ifs for him), he can be a star, imo.

i mean it exists in two forms...either just another 3/4 wing or a guy that can play small ball 5 when needed...how did the PF position exist previously? just by having two bigs in the paint? that was never really a thing either tbh as the game got more spacing and skill based instead of just size size size.

[Ruzious]

I'm probably late to the party on this, but the position of power forward... no longer exists. I was looking at the Wizards roster - seeing they have several "power forwards" but no real PF's that can rebound and pound away on defense, so I looked to see who they might trade for to do that. Almost every PF in the NBA averages less than 9 rebounds per 36 minutes - and most average under 8. Back in the day, respectable PF's got you 10 rebounds per 36. Even the great 7 foot Anthony Davis is under 9 now. Giannis is the outlier, but he's... a freak and plays some center, and he plays with Brook Lopez - who's the best at blocking out without actually getting rebounds. One other exception - and I didn't even think about him - Jared Vanderbilt of Minnesota - an outstanding 11.6. If he stays healthy and learns to shoot (both big ifs for him), he can be a star, imo.

i mean it exists in two forms...either just another 3/4 wing or a guy that can play small ball 5 when needed...how did the PF position exist previously? just by having two bigs in the paint? that was never really a thing either tbh as the game got more spacing and skill based instead of just size size size.

You did used to have 2 bigs, but they were clearly distinguishable. The center played with his back to the basket and with few exceptions played in the low post and would post up his opponent close to the hoop. The PF would play facing the basket, but his game would typically be from 10 to 15 feet from the hoop. The PF and center would be the dominant rebounders - both expected to get 10 plus rebounds per 36 minutes. Nowadaze, your bigger forwards typically get only 7 or 8 rebounds per 36. Even Anthony Davis - who used to dominate the boards, got only 8.9 per 36 last season.

[Marcus]

Read on Twitter

how much weight do we put to preps performing well in these Pro-Am pickups? when it's pros i know we don't really care because they've already hit the level and have grown man frame behind it. Do we look at the skill gap the same with HSers?

[nolang1]

You did used to have 2 bigs, but they were clearly distinguishable. The center played with his back to the basket and with few exceptions played in the low post and would post up his opponent close to the hoop. The PF would play facing the basket, but his game would typically be from 10 to 15 feet from the hoop. The PF and center would be the dominant rebounders - both expected to get 10 plus rebounds per 36 minutes. Nowadaze, your bigger forwards typically get only 7 or 8 rebounds per 36. Even Anthony Davis - who used to dominate the boards, got only 8.9 per 36 last season.

They weren't that distinguishable in terms of skillset; guys like Hakeem or Ewing or Robinson would face up too. It just used to be that you could get away with playing a 2nd big because they could still clear out and provide nominal spacing even if they couldn't shoot, and opposing teams weren't shooting enough threes to punish them on the perimeter.

And the rebounds thing is spurious because PFs are guarding more on the perimeter and most teams have given up on offensive rebounds, which leaves more defensive rebounds to go uncontested to the center or whoever's closest to the basket.

[clyde21]

I'm probably late to the party on this, but the position of power forward... no longer exists. I was looking at the Wizards roster - seeing they have several "power forwards" but no real PF's that can rebound and pound away on defense, so I looked to see who they might trade for to do that. Almost every PF in the NBA averages less than 9 rebounds per 36 minutes - and most average under 8. Back in the day, respectable PF's got you 10 rebounds per 36. Even the great 7 foot Anthony Davis is under 9 now. Giannis is the outlier, but he's... a freak and plays some center, and he plays with Brook Lopez - who's the best at blocking out without actually getting rebounds. One other exception - and I didn't even think about him - Jared Vanderbilt of Minnesota - an outstanding 11.6. If he stays healthy and learns to shoot (both big ifs for him), he can be a star, imo.

i mean it exists in two forms...either just another 3/4 wing or a guy that can play small ball 5 when needed...how did the PF position exist previously? just by having two bigs in the paint? that was never really a thing either tbh as the game got more spacing and skill based instead of just size size size.

You did used to have 2 bigs, but they were clearly distinguishable. The center played with his back to the basket and with few exceptions played in the low post and would post up his opponent close to the hoop. The PF would play facing the basket, but his game would typically be from 10 to 15 feet from the hoop. The PF and center would be the dominant rebounders - both expected to get 10 plus rebounds per 36 minutes. Nowadaze, your bigger forwards typically get only 7 or 8 rebounds per 36. Even Anthony Davis - who used to dominate the boards, got only 8.9 per 36 last season.

i don't think they were all that distinguishable tbh, kinda like SFs and PFs today...it just changed from PF/C being similar to PF/SF now having similar responsiblities

but again, a main component of PFs today is that they are able to play small ball 5 (not all obviously but thats one thing I look for in my top tier PF prospects like Banchero)...which is what separates them from a traditional SF.

[BostonCouchGM]

I think a lot of lost rebounds are going to PG by design whereas back in the day bigs would get the boards and pass to PG. Now, everyone boxes out so PGs can get uncontested defensive rebounds and start the fast break. I don't think it really results in more effective fast breaks but it sure allows PGs to put up meaningless triple doubles that seems to impress everyone.

What I'm looking for in a 4 is someone who won't look lost when switching on defense, can shoot the 3 to spread the floor opening up drives for guards/wings and the post for centers and on occasion can post up guards if they get a mismatch. Because this player really doesn't exist, fully, this is why teams keep taking guys they hope can be like them so high in the draft i.e. Bagley, Isaac, JJJ, Markkanen, Bender, Zion and Toppin. I think the Hawks found one in Jalen Johnson.

Can you think of a single PF who does all the above? Siakam has no post game and can no longer shoot. AD can't shoot from deep. Giannis can't shoot period. You're going to laugh but the one guy who was closest last year was Randle but he's not a good defender tbh but you saw what a massive difference he made to the Knicks once he could spread the floor.

As for the Wizards, I agree. They have numerous SF types who can play PF but they aren't really meant for that role. But there really isn't a lot of them around the league to go get which is why they keep drafting 3/4 hoping (Avdija, Rui, Todd) hoping to somewhat fill that void. So it's not like there's a team with multiple PF who are looking to trade one.

[Marcus]

So for what modern ball is today with spacing; switchability on defense and some measure of competent shooting is basically baseline in what you want on the floor.

Is the 4 the last position to evolve in order to fit that? or did each position just slide up one and the argument could be made the traditional PG phased out?

[Marcus]

Read on Twitter

?s=10

Thoughts please

[clyde21]

Read on Twitter

?s=10

Thoughts please

love it, more options these players have to make some cash the better.

this is what Jean Montero is doing btw

[Marcus]

Read on Twitter

?s=10

Thoughts please

love it, more options these players have to make some cash the better.

this is what Jean Montero is doing btw

was hoping you would chime in on this. knew you would love this move. I think it's fantastic and i hope the revenue is there to keep this thing viable. put some money management programs in place too. get these kids off to the correct start.

[GreatWhiteStiff]

Watch on YouTube

This is for clyde, basicly.

[Marcus]

more underrated in those ATG convos KD or Steph?

[Big J]

more underrated in those ATG convos KD or Steph?

Curry by far.

[Marcus]

any of yall watch those Rico Hines runs on YT. latest had the young Pistons on it. the early chemistry looks fairly good all things considered. Ausar looks like an ideal glue wing. getting more and more impressed with him each time out. Can't wait to see how Monty puts all of this together. Also still under the impression that Ivey loses more affect playing off ball than Cade does. I'd swap the responsibilities before long.

[Marcus]

for those who watched. how did Wemby and Chet look to folks?