’86 Larry Bird vs ’96 Michael Jordan

[Matt15]

Who was the better player?

[No-more-rings]

I'm inclined to go with Bird, but i could change my mind if someone can convince me that this was one of MJ's best defensive seasons because on offense it's clearly Bird imo.

[TheGOATRises007]

I don't see the argument for Bird over Jordan on offense.

Jordan bests him on OWS, OBPM, RTS and boasts a higher relative ORTG to era as well in the regular season and playoffs for all 4 categories.

His turnover economy is also better despite boasting a much higher usage rate.

Even Jordan's PER is higher in both the RS and playoffs.

Unless Bird's offensive impact stats(I don't have those on me) blow Jordan's out of the water, I don't see how Bird has an advantage, much less a clear advantage.

[DQuinn1575]

I'm inclined to go with Bird, but i could change my mind if someone can convince me that this was one of MJ's best defensive seasons because on offense it's clearly Bird imo.

"God disguised as Michael Jordan"
Well in 96 he was better than what the 86 Bird had to say.

Jordan came back with the challenge to proof himself after 1995. They went after it each and every game.
Pippen was definitely a star, Kukoc was a great sixth man.
This was a team that started Luc Longley, a post injury Ron Harper, and a guy averaging 5.5 ppg.

If you call Pippen = McHale
Walton = Kukoc
Rodman = Parrish

Then you have Ainge and DJ versus Longley and Harper, which is a huge plus for the Celtics.
On the bench Wedman and Sichting are a lot better than what the Bulls have.

So MJ was on a worse team that did better, was much better defensively,

I really think people on this board underrate the season the very best player on maybe the very best team ever had.

[falcolombardi]

i think there is zero argument for 96 bulls over 2017 warriors other than a slightly better regular season (
similar in srs and that was with durant missing like 16 games)

otherwise i agree that 96 jordan and those bulls are underated as an all time team and jordan season

[DQuinn1575]

i think there is zero argument for 96 bulls over 2017 warriors other than a slightly better regular season (
similar in srs and that was with durant missing like 16 games)

otherwise i agree that 96 jordan and those bulls are underated as an all time team and jordan season

Why do people even write things like zero argument?

THe Bulls won more games
THe Bulls had a better SRS
The Bulls had a better net rating
Other than LeBron, the Warriors faced no all-time greats in the playoffs.
The Bulls didn't werent getting shellacked by a team in the playoffs before that team's star got hurt.


I'm not going to argue who was better (so maybe that is the zero argument ?) as that is not the question of the thread.

[falcolombardi]

i think there is zero argument for 96 bulls over 2017 warriors other than a slightly better regular season (
similar in srs and that was with durant missing like 16 games)

otherwise i agree that 96 jordan and those bulls are underated as an all time team and jordan season

Why do people even write things like zero argument?

THe Bulls won more games
THe Bulls had a better SRS
The Bulls had a better net rating
Other than LeBron, the Warriors faced no all-time greats in the playoffs.
The Bulls didn't werent getting shellacked by a team in the playoffs before that team's star got hurt.


I'm not going to argue who was better (so maybe that is the zero argument ?) as that is not the question of the thread.

srs, net rating and games won are all about the same thingh. regular season dominance. it went slightly bulls favor but that was with durant missed games

in the post season is where it goes fairly in warriors favor, they literally lost only 1 game, and that was to a better team than the one who took 2 from bulls in the finals

was the difference because bulls were not 100% healthy?

maybe, but same thingh goes the other way around for regular season in bulls favor, which is what you are arguing with

[VanWest82]

I really think people on this board underrate the season the very best player on maybe the very best team ever had.

Yup. And no disrespect to Bird either - he was a bad man in 86 on an ATG team but this shouldn't even really be a discussion. Maybe next we can compare 2011 Dirk and 2016 Lebron.

[DQuinn1575]

i think there is zero argument for 96 bulls over 2017 warriors other than a slightly better regular season (
similar in srs and that was with durant missing like 16 games)

otherwise i agree that 96 jordan and those bulls are underated as an all time team and jordan season

Why do people even write things like zero argument?

THe Bulls won more games
THe Bulls had a better SRS
The Bulls had a better net rating
Other than LeBron, the Warriors faced no all-time greats in the playoffs.
The Bulls didn't werent getting shellacked by a team in the playoffs before that team's star got hurt.


I'm not going to argue who was better (so maybe that is the zero argument ?) as that is not the question of the thread.

srs, net rating and games won are all about the same thingh. regular season dominance. it went slightly bulls favor but that was with durant missed games

in the post season is where it goes fairly in warriors favor, they literally lost only 1 game, and that was to a better team than the one who took 2 from bulls in the finals

was the difference because bulls were not 100% healthy?

maybe, but same thingh goes the other way around for regular season in bulls favor, which is what you are arguing with

51-11 with KD playing so that’s not it.
Depends on how you view it, that’s why i say maybe, and not no argument.I’d say the same thing about 17 GSW and the 86 Celtics- maybe the best team ever.

[1993Playoffs]

I’d feel more comfortable taking MJ.

[LukaTheGOAT]

I don't see the argument for Bird over Jordan on offense.

Jordan bests him on OWS, OBPM, RTS and boasts a higher relative ORTG to era as well in the regular season and playoffs for all 4 categories.

His turnover economy is also better despite boasting a much higher usage rate.

Even Jordan's PER is higher in both the RS and playoffs.

Unless Bird's offensive impact stats(I don't have those on me) blow Jordan's out of the water, I don't see how Bird has an advantage, much less a clear advantage.

Some impact stats on the matter:

PS Backpicks BPM

Bird-8.8

Jordan-7.5

PS RAPTOR

Bird-9.95

Jordan-8.98

PS PIPM

Bird- 3.87

Jordan-3.14

I would need to take a deeper dive to be sure, but I believe the RS might favor Jordan in these numbers. However, based off the impact metrics I know, it seems as if Bird's PS run comes out looking better. Of course, how you intepret the competition each of them played against will vary.

[No-more-rings]

I'm inclined to go with Bird, but i could change my mind if someone can convince me that this was one of MJ's best defensive seasons because on offense it's clearly Bird imo.

"God disguised as Michael Jordan"
Well in 96 he was better than what the 86 Bird had to say.

Jordan came back with the challenge to proof himself after 1995. They went after it each and every game.
Pippen was definitely a star, Kukoc was a great sixth man.
This was a team that started Luc Longley, a post injury Ron Harper, and a guy averaging 5.5 ppg.

If you call Pippen = McHale
Walton = Kukoc
Rodman = Parrish

Then you have Ainge and DJ versus Longley and Harper, which is a huge plus for the Celtics.
On the bench Wedman and Sichting are a lot better than what the Bulls have.

So MJ was on a worse team that did better, was much better defensively,

I really think people on this board underrate the season the very best player on maybe the very best team ever had.

So i don't really agree with your just bland comparison between the 2 supporting casts. First we need to establish that, Jackson was a clearly better coach than Jones with a system that helped maximize everyone it wasn't just Mj's greatness that got them to 72 wins. The Celtics relied way more on Bird's passing/playmaking than the Bulls did Jordan, Pippen's passing was likely more valuable by that point though obviously Jordan's shot creation was a huge deal. Frankly though i just tend to be more impressed with Bird's playoff run though both were fantastic, i think Jordan struggled in the 2nd half of the finals in a way i couldn't really see with Bird. Bird clinched the championship with 29/11/12 3 steals 11/12 ft shooting, and just 2 turnovers. Bird to me just seemed like he was capable of doing more when his shot wasn't falling. Jordan was better defensively, but it's important to note Bird was their 3rd most important defender on their own 1st ranked defense. He wasn't a slouch in that regard.

[Odinn21]

I don't see the point of mentioning team numbers for Jordan's case without recognising reasons for those numbers.

Many of the 10+ NRtg seasons with high W numbers occurred in a time while the league was expanding.

1971 Bucks; 66W team with +11.91 SRS, +10.8 NRtg
1972 Bucks; 63W team with +10.70 SRS, +10.0 NRtg
1972 Lakers; 69W team with +11.65 SRS, +10.5 NRtg

The Bucks were one of the expansion teams themselves. The league went from 9 team league to 17 team league in 5 years ('66-'71).

1992 Bulls; 67W team with +10.07 SRS, +11.0 NRtg
1996 Bulls; 72W team with +11.80 SRS, +13.4 NRtg
1997 Bulls; 69W team with +10.70 SRS, +12.0 NRtg

The league went from 23 team league to 27 team league in 2 years from '88 to '90, then they added 2 more teams going into 1995-96 season.

I even calculated the impact of the expansions and posted them in here but couldn't find back. If I do, I'll edit this message.

(For instance one of the reasons why 4 of the other 10+ NRtg seasons happened in 2015 and afterwards is that high 3pt utilisation causing bigger variances than before.) [2015/2016/2017 Warriors, 2016 Spurs]
The only reg. season team with 10+ NRtg season without such an external impact is 2008 Celtics. These are all the teams ever had 10+ NRtg.

---

In terms of SRS and NRtg scales over time, 1986 Celtics were just as impressive if not more. So, I don't like looking at BBRef player/team pages filled with PER or SRS, then taking them at a face value like there's not further to investigate.

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Also I saw a comment with a direct comparison between the teams as if the competition stayed on the same level. The Celtics were a more loaded team in the '80s, then again they faced a more loaded competition. So, acting like Jordan carried his team more because his team was worse is not a convincing argument.

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I think this is a close comparison could go either way. I prefer Bird though because there's a hardly defensive difference and Bird's offensive versatility was slightly more important / better than Jordan's higher scoring volume.

[Djoker]

I'm not a big proponent of advanced stats but 96 Jordan crushes 86 Bird in all of them in both the regular season and the playoffs... PER, WS, WS/48, BPM, VORP... He gave 4-5 ppg more albeit with fewer apg but also much lower turnovers and he's clearly a better defensive player as well. In 96, Jordan was clearly past his peak but still very very good. Since the Bulls just steamrolled everyone, he actually didn't need to put up as great numbers as he usually did but I guess the same is true of Bird.

[DQuinn1575]

I'm inclined to go with Bird, but i could change my mind if someone can convince me that this was one of MJ's best defensive seasons because on offense it's clearly Bird imo.

"God disguised as Michael Jordan"
Well in 96 he was better than what the 86 Bird had to say.

Jordan came back with the challenge to proof himself after 1995. They went after it each and every game.
Pippen was definitely a star, Kukoc was a great sixth man.
This was a team that started Luc Longley, a post injury Ron Harper, and a guy averaging 5.5 ppg.

If you call Pippen = McHale
Walton = Kukoc
Rodman = Parrish

Then you have Ainge and DJ versus Longley and Harper, which is a huge plus for the Celtics.
On the bench Wedman and Sichting are a lot better than what the Bulls have.

So MJ was on a worse team that did better, was much better defensively,

I really think people on this board underrate the season the very best player on maybe the very best team ever had.

So i don't really agree with your just bland comparison between the 2 supporting casts. First we need to establish that, Jackson was a clearly better coach than Jones with a system that helped maximize everyone it wasn't just Mj's greatness that got them to 72 wins. The Celtics relied way more on Bird's passing/playmaking than the Bulls did Jordan, Pippen's passing was likely more valuable by that point though obviously Jordan's shot creation was a huge deal. Frankly though i just tend to be more impressed with Bird's playoff run though both were fantastic, i think Jordan struggled in the 2nd half of the finals in a way i couldn't really see with Bird. Bird clinched the championship with 29/11/12 3 steals 11/12 ft shooting, and just 2 turnovers. Bird to me just seemed like he was capable of doing more when his shot wasn't falling. Jordan was better defensively, but it's important to note Bird was their 3rd most important defender on their own 1st ranked defense. He wasn't a slouch in that regard.

All good points, just one note - there are 54 coaches with 10 or more years, KC Jones is second in winning percentage to Jackson, at 67.4% to Phil's 70.4%, and K.C. spent 5 of those 10 years without a Top 15 player of all-time.

[Odinn21]

And maybe the top 10 ever he had his on team for 5 years made him reach there?

K.C. Jones in Boston with Bird; 308-102 (.751) in rs & 65-37 (.637) in ps
K.C. Jones in anywhere else; 244-204 (.545) in rs & 16-24 (.400) in ps

[DQuinn1575]

And maybe the top 10 ever he had his on team for 5 years made him reach there?

K.C. Jones in Boston with Bird; 308-102 (.751) in rs & 65-37 (.637) in ps
K.C. Jones in anywhere else; 244-204 (.545) in rs & 16-24 (.400) in ps

Well this is kind of silly,

K.C. then as an above average record without a Top 10 player.

[Top10alltime]

1995-96 Jordan WIPES 1985-86 Bird.

Scoring - Jordan absolutely wipes Bird in scoring, the GOAT scorer compared to a non-top 20-25 scorer.
Jordan still had GOAT mid-range shooting, but added Hakeem-ish post moves, he was still all-time finisher and had more gravity than Bird ever had in his career. The 3 was shortened, but still worth noting Jordan shot well there. No need to discuss this further

Playmaking - Not impressive PM by Bird, still I'd probably lean him here due to his passing, and his passing alone. Jordan probably created more shots for his team than Bird did

Defense - Not even close. Jordan is still vastly overrated defender by casual, and other people even putting him in same sentence as Lebron. But still, Jordan wipe Bird as man defender, on ball defender, as perimeter defender as well. I don't really need this to be talked about here.


With all this, everyone should agree on. So whoever voted Larry Bird, I'd like to see some strong reasoning, before I can be swayed here.

[trelos6]

Larry Bird. Gets better as a passer. 24.2 pp75 on +3.9 rTS%. Team rOrtg +4.6. Second best offense in the playoffs. +4.51 OPIPM, +1.57 DPIPM. +6.08 PIPM. 21.12 Wins Added.

Michael Jordan. He’s back. 31.9 pp75 on +4 rTS%. Team offense was a crazy +7.5. Slight drop in both scoring and efficiency in playoffs. Elite D, Elite O. MJ was spectacular. +6.2 OPIPM, +1.31 DPIPM. +7.51 PIPM. 23.58 Wins Added.

[lessthanjake]

This is probably Jordan, but it’s not a total slam dunk, since this is peak Bird vs. not-peak Jordan. I think 1996 Jordan was pretty close to his peak still, though. Jordan did struggle a bit in the Finals relative to his norm, but that year is pretty much unimpeachable otherwise. If we compared 1986 Bird to 1997 Jordan instead, then I think I’m actually pretty ambivalent about it. I might still take 1997 Jordan, but Bird did shoot noticeably more efficiently in the playoffs. Once we get to 1998 Jordan, I’m pretty confident picking 1986 Bird.