Ben Simmons Trade Thread Part 4

[FireMorey]

It's a better plan than just take whatever we can get e.g. Brogdon and #14.

Morey is paid the big bucks to make GOOD DECISIONS, not to shoot from the hip ala Brand and the previous idiocracy.

And right now the best decision is to wait...

Simmons isn't going to gain value next season. Even if he starts off playing well during the regular season, no GM worth his salt is going to change their opinion on him, because it's all about the playoffs with him and everyone knows that. Going into the season with Simmons still part of the team would be utter GMing malpractice.

Wrong as usual. There are plenty of reasons we could get a better offer during the season as opposed to now.

You may not have the intellectual horsepower to understand those reasons, but Daryl Morey does.

hahaha... ok. The same dude who traded multiple 2nd round picks for George Hill and waived him a few months later? Right. And who decided not to trade him last offseason and wait to see how things played out only to have it blow up in his face?

Anything could happen, but it's highly unlikely that a team is going to make their biggest offer in the middle of a season, especially when the playoff format has changed to allow more teams eligible for the playoffs.

And if Simmons comes into the season hesitant to shoot and starts getting booed by fans and things get ugly, and then he holds out and demands a trade, his value will take an even greater hit, but even worse, the Sixers will lose leverage.

Your condescension aside, there are many more ways things could get worse keeping him into the season than there are ways they could get better to increase his value.

[Arsenal]

Simmons isn't going to gain value next season. Even if he starts off playing well during the regular season, no GM worth his salt is going to change their opinion on him, because it's all about the playoffs with him and everyone knows that. Going into the season with Simmons still part of the team would be utter GMing malpractice.

Wrong as usual. There are plenty of reasons we could get a better offer during the season as opposed to now.

You may not have the intellectual horsepower to understand those reasons, but Daryl Morey does.

hahaha... ok. The same dude who traded multiple 2nd round picks for George Hill and waived him a few months later? Right. And who decided not to trade him last offseason and wait to see how things played out only to have it blow up in his face?

Anything could happen, but it's highly unlikely that a team is going to make their biggest offer in the middle of a season, especially when the playoff format has changed to allow more teams eligible for the playoffs.

And if Simmons comes into the season hesitant to shoot and starts getting booed by fans and things get ugly, and then he holds out and demands a trade, his value will take an even greater hit, but even worse, the Sixers will lose leverage.

Your condescension aside, there are many more ways things could get worse keeping him into the season than there are ways they could get better to increase his value.

There's a simple concept you should look up called "Asymmetric Risk". That would help you understand the situation better...

https://www.dearretailinvestors.com/asymmetric-risk-and-small-cap-investing/

[FireMorey]

Wrong as usual. There are plenty of reasons we could get a better offer during the season as opposed to now.

You may not have the intellectual horsepower to understand those reasons, but Daryl Morey does.

hahaha... ok. The same dude who traded multiple 2nd round picks for George Hill and waived him a few months later? Right. And who decided not to trade him last offseason and wait to see how things played out only to have it blow up in his face?

Anything could happen, but it's highly unlikely that a team is going to make their biggest offer in the middle of a season, especially when the playoff format has changed to allow more teams eligible for the playoffs.

And if Simmons comes into the season hesitant to shoot and starts getting booed by fans and things get ugly, and then he holds out and demands a trade, his value will take an even greater hit, but even worse, the Sixers will lose leverage.

Your condescension aside, there are many more ways things could get worse keeping him into the season than there are ways they could get better to increase his value.

There's a simple concept you should look up called "Asymmetric Risk". That would help you understand the situation better...

https://www.dearretailinvestors.com/asymmetric-risk-and-small-cap-investing/

There's very little risk in trading away a player who's a detriment to a basketball team and will impede you from winning championships. The reward will undoubtedly improve the team, unless they get back utter trash, which shouldn't be a problem if Morey is so great.

You said there are "plenty of reasons" the Sixers could get a better offer during the season. I'd love to hear them.

[DCasey91]

Set the team up like early 2000’s Lakers with Shaq/Kobe.

They didn’t have a third but didn’t need too.

Take the pretense today that Embiid/Ingram will work then go from there. In volume size (I.E both are going to take majority share of shots on the total team).

Must be a blueprint to build around Embiid. There’s Hakeem/Shaq teams so use it.

Then it’s basically a 3+D lead guard, a 3+D 3/4 And of course a 3+D Wing.

So basically this:

Ball
Green
Ingram
Olynyk
Embiid

Shaq/Hakeem would love that team too. There is so much room to operate.

I just think if you want to solve the problem then you have to actually build a whole blueprint around Embiid.

I get the numbers for both Ben and Harris etc etc. But build as if Embiid is the centerpiece (which he is lol).

Curry/Redick/CJ would be way more valued than a Harris type when focusing on Embiid but I would only want 2x max. One start, one bench.

If we’re playing 4 out, Embiid ball, and championship lists go, I can only afford to have one sub defender in the starting unit.

That’s why I like Simons (Curry replacement), that’s why I like Ingram, that’s why I like CJ. I think to myself how do I get this team with every piece/player used to max out Embiid. Sexton in the numbers looks good, but I want my 2x volume scorer to be abit more “special”.

Remember if you’re playing Embiid ball it’s going to be 2x max imo. 2x volume scorers and the rest not big numbers for everybody (outside being a cold shooter that doesn’t need the ball to be a huge threat).

Ben doesn’t have the offensive style for Embiid at all.

Defense? Yes.

[Tomjas]

Portland have acquired Nance so I assume that Dame & CJ are off the table for the time being

[the_process]

Morey's to do list:

1)Realize Lillard and Beal are not asking out.

2)Accept the return for Ben will be draft picks and young guys and placeholder vets and that you can still maximize his value this way.

3)Understand that dumping Tobias is addition by subtraction.



Now I realize he is going to have to wait until some of these guys are eligible to be aggregated in trades again. But that will occur over the next couple of weeks and then it's time to make over the roster.

Running it back is an absolute failure.

[Iverson Armband]

Morey's to do list:

1)Realize Lillard and Beal are not asking out.

2)Accept the return for Ben will be draft picks and young guys and placeholder vets and that you can still maximize his value this way.

3)Understand that dumping Tobias is addition by subtraction.



Now I realize he is going to have to wait until some of these guys are eligible to be aggregated in trades again. But that will occur over the next couple of weeks and then it's time to make over the roster.

Running it back is an absolute failure.

Pretty much this.

And on top of that, if you trade Ben for some picks and good young talent, in the event one of those aforementioned guys DO become available, you’re likely to have a ton of ammo to throw at another team (without giving up say Maxey AND Thybulle). You’d think a guy like Morey would have the foresight to think like this. Depending on what he gets back (this is where you earn your money Morey) that’s likely to be more attractive to a rebuilding team than an expensive Ben Simmons who’s clearly not a franchise changer.

[Tomjas]

Morey's to do list:

1)Realize Lillard and Beal are not asking out.

2)Accept the return for Ben will be draft picks and young guys and placeholder vets and that you can still maximize his value this way.

3)Understand that dumping Tobias is addition by subtraction.



Now I realize he is going to have to wait until some of these guys are eligible to be aggregated in trades again. But that will occur over the next couple of weeks and then it's time to make over the roster.

Running it back is an absolute failure.

Pretty much this.

And on top of that, if you trade Ben for some picks and good young talent, in the event one of those aforementioned guys DO become available, you’re likely to have a ton of ammo to throw at another team. You’d think a guy like Morey would have the foresight to think like this. Depending on what he gets back (this is where you earn your money Morey) that’s likely to be more attractive to a rebuilding team then an expensive Ben Simmons who’s clearly not a franchise changer.

And that’s why I maintain that Spurs are a potential trade partner

Pop likes Ben

They have a completely dysfunctional roster set up for a trade

They have a boatload of picks

Would some combination of White, Murray, Walker, Vassell, Johnson, Thad Young, picks be such a bad result IN THE SHORT TERM?

[Iverson Armband]

Morey's to do list:

1)Realize Lillard and Beal are not asking out.

2)Accept the return for Ben will be draft picks and young guys and placeholder vets and that you can still maximize his value this way.

3)Understand that dumping Tobias is addition by subtraction.



Now I realize he is going to have to wait until some of these guys are eligible to be aggregated in trades again. But that will occur over the next couple of weeks and then it's time to make over the roster.

Running it back is an absolute failure.

Pretty much this.

And on top of that, if you trade Ben for some picks and good young talent, in the event one of those aforementioned guys DO become available, you’re likely to have a ton of ammo to throw at another team. You’d think a guy like Morey would have the foresight to think like this. Depending on what he gets back (this is where you earn your money Morey) that’s likely to be more attractive to a rebuilding team then an expensive Ben Simmons who’s clearly not a franchise changer.

And that’s why I maintain that Spurs are a potential trade partner

Pop likes Ben

They have a completely dysfunctional roster set up for a trade

They have a boatload of picks

Would some combination of White, Murray, Walker, Vassell, Johnson, Thad Young, picks be such a bad result IN THE SHORT TERM?

Not at all. Add Josh Primo to that list as well.

[kuclas]

Only thing that scares me is our perimeter defense sucks without Simmons/Embiid combination one-two punch.

Simmons has missed a lot of games this season (compared to previous seasons). And Embiid has been pretty helpless to defend himself. Only so much a center can do when perimeter guys get off shots

Just look at the games this season Simmons didn’t play and Embiid played. Those games with Embiid and no Simmons 3 straight losses to golden state Phoenix bucks. The perimeter defense was atrocious (outside of thybulle shutting down Devon booker)

And we all know what happen to Sixers against Celtics in bubble getting swept because they couldn’t defend the perimeter.

That’s why trading for a point guard who can’t defend maybe a big problem.

[Mik317]

yes and no.

Giannis, Booker and Curry have had a lot of success against Ben....so those losses may have been losses either way lol

But yeah the team has struggled without Ben....but thats moreso because what is left behind is so flawed. Many of the guys live off of being set up. No one on the team sets up people. Ideally his replacement would be able to even if only by virtue of being actual half court threats. The defense is more about reps and scheme. We run the same ****...and it doesn't work without Ben or Biid. This is also why the team tanks heavy when Biid is out or just sits. A lot of stuff is built for him and no one else can fill that role. System overall has to be less rigid and more versatile. If we trade Ben, we cannot rely on having a jumbo defender and honestly the drop coverage also needs to be used in smaller doses.

But overall a Ben trade would probably mean the defense takes a hit but ideally the offense improves to the point where it does not matter.

(The Boston series last year we had Horford guarding on the peremter and Brett had Neto out there guarding Tatum and ****...Ben wasn't saving that squad lol. Prime Rodman wouldn't either lol)

[Tomjas]

Only thing that scares me is our perimeter defense sucks without Simmons/Embiid combination one-two punch.

Simmons has missed a lot of games this season (compared to previous seasons). And Embiid has been pretty helpless to defend himself. Only so much a center can do when perimeter guys get off shots

Just look at the games this season Simmons didn’t play and Embiid played. Those games with Embiid and no Simmons 3 straight losses to golden state Phoenix bucks. The perimeter defense was atrocious (outside of thybulle shutting down Devon booker)

And we all know what happen to Sixers against Celtics in bubble getting swept because they couldn’t defend the perimeter.

That’s why trading for a point guard who can’t defend maybe a big problem.

Nobody talks about the Jazz but this year they were the #1 seed in the West and the #3 offensive team in the NBA

They have been destroyed on the perimeter in consecutive playoffs while defence was a massive part of the Bucks win

[DCasey91]

There’s merit in keeping Ben if the deal isn’t of value. I don’t see anything from the Spurs that would interest me.

Murray is Richardson and the rest are just that. Nothing to get excited about.

I still believe a CJ tier guard specifically with Embiid and Ben as the third is very close to ideal.
Problem is I don’t see anyone on our list currently. And Harris is still the big hold up on opening up the flexibility. He really is addition by subtraction.
Without him we are still a 50+ win team and a 2nd rnd ceiling (with margins of improvement of the younger brigade namely Maxey, Thybulle, etc).

The aftermath of trading Ben for the wrong players or the wrong trade will be worst than just keeping him.

[DCasey91]

Watch on YouTube

This + Elite defense + Elite passing was the fantasy ceiling for Ben. Damn that’s some player basically new Age Lebron.

Griffin Pistons was such a player development.

I don’t think Ben will even get close to this form. Surely he’s not stupid enough to rely solely on athleticism surely not? It’s not going to be pretty 30 and onwards.

This is the only video footage (whole seasons worth on backlogs) if really wants to improve but that’s a big if, the blueprint is there.

[Zumramania]

I read Blake's article on Players Tribune a few years ago. If I remember correctly, he said that it took him three years of hard, dedicated and smart work to rework and improve his shot. I seriously doubt Ben would be up for something like that.

[DCasey91]

I read Blake's article on Players Tribune a few years ago. If I remember correctly, he said that it took him three years of hard, dedicated and smart work to rework and improve his shot. I seriously doubt Ben would be up for something like that.

Yep, regardless of Blake’s personality it’s highly commendable that a player that late into his career actually developed their own game that much. One of my favorite seasons from a player, the skill growth was outstanding

Who knows say for example Carmelo never bothered to expand or improve his game.

Ben has regressed from rookie season (more jump shots then the next two years combined lol) which is very disappointing to me over everything. It’s not about being a otherworldly scorer or a knock down shooter it’s just there is a baseline to go from but he never even progressed from that first season. He just went back into his shell so to speak.

[Mik317]

Blake had to put in work as his body was breaking down and the days of jumping through dudes was coming to a quick close.

Ben isn't there yet

[ProcessDoctor]

I read Blake's article on Players Tribune a few years ago. If I remember correctly, he said that it took him three years of hard, dedicated and smart work to rework and improve his shot. I seriously doubt Ben would be up for something like that.

Yep, regardless of Blake’s personality it’s highly commendable that a player that late into his career actually developed their own game that much. One of my favorite seasons from a player, the skill growth was outstanding

Who knows say for example Carmelo never bothered to expand or improve his game.

Ben has regressed from rookie season (more jump shots then the next two years combined lol) which is very disappointing to me over everything. It’s not about being a otherworldly scorer or a knock down shooter it’s just there is a baseline to go from but he never even progressed from that first season. He just went back into his shell so to speak.

Watch on YouTube

I cry

[DCasey91]

I read Blake's article on Players Tribune a few years ago. If I remember correctly, he said that it took him three years of hard, dedicated and smart work to rework and improve his shot. I seriously doubt Ben would be up for something like that.

Yep, regardless of Blake’s personality it’s highly commendable that a player that late into his career actually developed their own game that much. One of my favorite seasons from a player, the skill growth was outstanding

Who knows say for example Carmelo never bothered to expand or improve his game.

Ben has regressed from rookie season (more jump shots then the next two years combined lol) which is very disappointing to me over everything. It’s not about being a otherworldly scorer or a knock down shooter it’s just there is a baseline to go from but he never even progressed from that first season. He just went back into his shell so to speak.

Watch on YouTube

I cry

Even on that attempt he had stage fright lol. He’s like asking a girl out for the first time, all nervous and conscious about the what if’s. Who cares life goes on, memes happen, laugh at it and go to the next one.

As three point shot attempts go this isn’t even in the same galaxy as the worse of all time. It’s fine.

It’s all in his head and it’s probably too far gone.

I wish a coach would say to him I’ll bench you if you don’t attempt a jumper a quarter. No point coming into training if you don’t apply what you’ve been doing in practice out onto the court. Every time he hits one give him a cookie lol

[Sixersftw]

As three point shot attempts go this isn’t even in the same galaxy as the worse of all time. It’s fine.

It’s all in his head and it’s probably too far gone.

I'll go one better. I don't think I've seen Ben shoot a truly ugly 3 pointer in like 3 years. Not in a game, not at practice, nowhere.

I've seen utterly putrid shots inside the perimeter, at the line, fading aways for no reason etc. But from 3? It's been mediocre to fine. Would you teach his form to a kid? Hell no, but its nothing to be ashamed of. If you showed Ben's form next to like Shawn Marion you'd assume Ben shot like a full tier better.

He's Rick Ankiel