Ben Simmons Containment Thread Take 3

[the_process]

I don't see Philly moving Simmons for a below average point guard, a 35 year old backup, a backup big, and a second round pick. If that were the cost he'd be gone already. Spurs are stealing a ton of value here and just get cut out.

Spurs could add another pick here sure. Windler is a a backup wing FYI.

However, I do think Dragic is better than he was last season and Murray is certainly not a below average point guard. I'd have him in top 10 of point guards. He'd be top 5 for two-way point guards.

I've spoken to a few sixer fans on here and to me their best realistic package for Simmons would be:
- a young two-way PG starter to allow Curry to start with potential to grow still
- a bench leader vet to support Maxey
- a good future pick or picks

Spurs aren't the sort of team to trade unprotected 1sts willy nilly. We rely on our 1st to develop the team, it's almost impossible for us to get good free agents so we build the team that way. Where do you think we got all these good players you're trying to steal from us? I feel like you might be overrating Murray too. He might be an above average point, but he might not be. This year will be the test case for that, now that he's finally freed from DeRozan's cancerous presence.

And yeh, I'd imagine Philly prefers to Vassell to Sexton. No idea what Sexton is doing in these trades, except that he happens to be on the block right now. Do winning teams want Sexton?

[babyjax13]

Spurs give Murray+Poeltl+Vassell+Aminu+SAS22FRP and get Simmons+Boucher+Sexton
Sexton, White, Keldon, Simmons, Boucher, -- Primo, Lonnie, McDermott, Young, Landale/Collins

Cavs give Sexton+Windler and get Vassell+TOR23SRP
Garland, Okoro, Vassell, Mobley, Allen -- Rubio, Windler, Cedi, Lauri

Sixers give Simmons and get Murray+Dragic+Windler+SAS22FRP
Murray, Curry, Green, Harris, Embiid -- Dragic, Maxey, Thybulle, Reed, Drummond

Raptors give Boucher+Dragic+TOR23SRP and get Poeltl+Aminu+Milton
FVV, Trent, OG, Siakam, Poeltl -- Flynn, Milton, Barnes, Precious, Khem

I don't see Philly moving Simmons for a below average point guard, a 35 year old backup, a backup big, and a second round pick. If that were the cost he'd be gone already. Spurs are stealing a ton of value here and just get cut out.

Spurs could add another pick here sure. Windler is a a backup wing FYI.

However, I do think Dragic is better than he was last season and Murray is certainly not a below average point guard. I'd have him in top 10 of point guards. He'd be top 5 for two-way point guards.

I've spoken to a few sixer fans on here and to me their best realistic package for Simmons would be:
- a young two-way PG starter to allow Curry to start with potential to grow still
- a bench leader vet to support Maxey
- a good future pick or picks

My mind read Dean Wade, not Dylan Wyndler, for some reason. I think San Antonio could be a destination for Simmons, but it's going to require sending out Derrick White + quite a bit of value. I'm not actually sure that's worth it for them, but anything less is certainly not worth it for Philly.

Starting NBA point guards def. better than Murray:
1. Steph Curry
2. Damien Lillard
3. Shai Gilgeous Alexander
4. Trae Young
5. Chris Paul
6. Kyrie Irving
7. Ja Morant
8. Jrue Holiday
9. Kyle Lowry
10. Mike Conley
11. [Jamal Murray]
12. De'Aaron Fox
13. Malcolm Brogdon
14. Darius Garland
15. Russell Westbrook

Probably better:
16. LaMelo Ball
17. Lonzo Ball
18. Cade Cunningham (will rise, being conservative here)
19. Tyrese Haliburton

Same area, maybe better:
20. Kemba Walker (health dependent)
21. D'Angelo Russell
22. John Wall

+ add combo guards: James Harden, Donovan Mitchell, CJ McCollum, Derrick White, Fred VanVleet
+ add Ben Simmons (depending on where you want to say he plays)

I like Murray, I think he's a great third guard in a rotation with the upside to be a bit more. But he's not some super special player, and certainly not a top 10 point guard in this league.

[zimpy27]

Spurs could add another pick here sure. Windler is a a backup wing FYI.

However, I do think Dragic is better than he was last season and Murray is certainly not a below average point guard. I'd have him in top 10 of point guards. He'd be top 5 for two-way point guards.

I've spoken to a few sixer fans on here and to me their best realistic package for Simmons would be:
- a young two-way PG starter to allow Curry to start with potential to grow still
- a bench leader vet to support Maxey
- a good future pick or picks

Spurs aren't the sort of team to trade unprotected 1sts willy nilly. We rely on our 1st to develop the team, it's almost impossible for us to get good free agents so we build the team that way. Where do you think we got all these good players you're trying to steal from us? I feel like you might be overrating Murray too. He might be an above average point, but he might not be. This year will be the test case for that, now that he's finally freed from DeRozan's cancerous presence.

And yeh, I'd imagine Philly prefers to Vassell to Sexton. No idea what Sexton is doing in these trades, except that he happens to be on the block right now. Do winning teams want Sexton?

Yeah pretty much, don't see why Philly would want Sexton. They don't need Vassell either, don't have space/time to properly develop him.

Sexton would fit on Spurs with White as SG and Simmons as PF. That's as good a for for a starting role Sexton will find in the NBA.

Philly are best with a starting PG, bench leader and picks for future or trade.

[zimpy27]

I don't see Philly moving Simmons for a below average point guard, a 35 year old backup, a backup big, and a second round pick. If that were the cost he'd be gone already. Spurs are stealing a ton of value here and just get cut out.

Spurs could add another pick here sure. Windler is a a backup wing FYI.

However, I do think Dragic is better than he was last season and Murray is certainly not a below average point guard. I'd have him in top 10 of point guards. He'd be top 5 for two-way point guards.

I've spoken to a few sixer fans on here and to me their best realistic package for Simmons would be:
- a young two-way PG starter to allow Curry to start with potential to grow still
- a bench leader vet to support Maxey
- a good future pick or picks

My mind read Dean Wade, not Dylan Wyndler, for some reason. I think San Antonio could be a destination for Simmons, but it's going to require sending out Derrick White + quite a bit of value. I'm not actually sure that's worth it for them, but anything less is certainly not worth it for Philly.

Starting NBA point guards def. better than Murray:
1. Steph Curry
2. Damien Lillard
3. Shai Gilgeous Alexander
4. Trae Young
5. Chris Paul
6. Kyrie Irving
7. Ja Morant
8. Jrue Holiday
9. Kyle Lowry
10. Mike Conley
11. [Jamal Murray]
12. De'Aaron Fox
13. Malcolm Brogdon
14. Darius Garland
15. Russell Westbrook

Probably better:
16. LaMelo Ball
17. Lonzo Ball
18. Cade Cunningham (will rise, being conservative here)
19. Tyrese Haliburton

Same area, maybe better:
20. Kemba Walker (health dependent)
21. D'Angelo Russell
22. John Wall

+ add combo guards: James Harden, Donovan Mitchell, CJ McCollum, Derrick White, Fred VanVleet
+ add Ben Simmons (depending on where you want to say he plays)

I like Murray, I think he's a great third guard in a rotation with the upside to be a bit more. But he's not some super special player, and certainly not a top 10 point guard in this league.

I mean I disagree with some of your ranking here but these are guys I consider better than Dejounte Murray in the upcoming season:

1. Steph Curry
2. Damien Lillard
3. Shai Gilgeous Alexander
4. Trae Young
5. Chris Paul
6. Kyrie Irving
7. Jrue Holiday
8. DeArron Fox
9. Russell Westbrook

Ja is better prospect but not better ATM and Jamal would have been ahead if he didn't get injured.

[babyjax13]

Spurs could add another pick here sure. Windler is a a backup wing FYI.

However, I do think Dragic is better than he was last season and Murray is certainly not a below average point guard. I'd have him in top 10 of point guards. He'd be top 5 for two-way point guards.

I've spoken to a few sixer fans on here and to me their best realistic package for Simmons would be:
- a young two-way PG starter to allow Curry to start with potential to grow still
- a bench leader vet to support Maxey
- a good future pick or picks

My mind read Dean Wade, not Dylan Wyndler, for some reason. I think San Antonio could be a destination for Simmons, but it's going to require sending out Derrick White + quite a bit of value. I'm not actually sure that's worth it for them, but anything less is certainly not worth it for Philly.

Starting NBA point guards def. better than Murray:
1. Steph Curry
2. Damien Lillard
3. Shai Gilgeous Alexander
4. Trae Young
5. Chris Paul
6. Kyrie Irving
7. Ja Morant
8. Jrue Holiday
9. Kyle Lowry
10. Mike Conley
11. [Jamal Murray]
12. De'Aaron Fox
13. Malcolm Brogdon
14. Darius Garland
15. Russell Westbrook

Probably better:
16. LaMelo Ball
17. Lonzo Ball
18. Cade Cunningham (will rise, being conservative here)
19. Tyrese Haliburton

Same area, maybe better:
20. Kemba Walker (health dependent)
21. D'Angelo Russell
22. John Wall

+ add combo guards: James Harden, Donovan Mitchell, CJ McCollum, Derrick White, Fred VanVleet
+ add Ben Simmons (depending on where you want to say he plays)

I like Murray, I think he's a great third guard in a rotation with the upside to be a bit more. But he's not some super special player, and certainly not a top 10 point guard in this league.

I mean I disagree with some of your ranking here but these are guys I consider better than Dejounte Murray in the upcoming season:

1. Steph Curry
2. Damien Lillard
3. Shai Gilgeous Alexander
4. Trae Young
5. Chris Paul
6. Kyrie Irving
7. Jrue Holiday
8. DeArron Fox
9. Russell Westbrook

Ja is better prospect but not better ATM and Jamal would have been ahead if he didn't get injured.

I think we all have players we value more than most - I don't feel wrong in saying that your valuation of Murray is likely very far off of where most people have him.

[DWhiteMamba]

Like I said, Murray hasn't proven he's an average point guard yet. He might be. He has improved every year, and he could easily come in this year and prove he is above average, but this year is the test. He is finally freed of DeMar, who was just cancerous to him in particular. Murray needs to play in a way that takes advantage of his speed and which puts shooting around him. DeLoser being shackled to the starters killed that space for Murray.

I will say this about Murray. He is a very Marcus Smart type player. The dude makes winning plays, and hustles like crazy out there in alot of ways that don't show up on paper. It's why some Spurs fans like me are forgiving of his shortcomings and are willing to give him another chance. He has also improved his shooting. His mid-range shot is now money, and his 3pt shot is only a little bit sub-par given the spacing he worked with. If he comes in and shoots 35% this year off 5 attempts a game he looks alot more valuable; and that is a thing that could actually happen. He's also improved his finishing alot, but again that was hampered by DeLoser clogging the paint for him a tonne. I could do without him talking like he's the team's star player, that gets annoying. White is our star and our heartbeat. The team wins when White is healthy and starting and struggles when he is not.

That said I'm not keen to trade Murray unless it's a slam dunk.

People look at ppg and a guys rep, and think the Spurs will be in trouble because we lost DeLoser. I think with a healthy White we'll be better without him. DDR's big skill is shot creation and hitting mid-rangers. With a healthy White and Murray in the line-up we don't need shot creation. White creates offense as well as Demar, albeit slightly differently (in good ways; White hits 3s well and runs an offense properly). Demar is better hitting 2s, but the price of having him do that is too high. He clogs your offense and can't do much off-ball. Nobody would ever guard him. He also is worse than useless on D. He has no position, and to survive has to be hidden on the other teams worst offensive player every time. By playing him in the starters with Murray we had 2 total non-shooters next to Murray. Keldon is an average shooter at best at this stage, though hopefully he's improving. So the starters would be stuck with one real shooting threat to space Murray, all because DeLoser would have pouted and sulked if we tried to make him 6th man, which is where he belongs at this stage of his career in this new NBA.

With DeLoser gone we still have enough shot creation in the starting line-up, but we finally have enough shooters to function and if we're starting Vassell in his place we have 5 guys who can all play great D too. The bench is also deep, and has plenty of shooting as well. Definitely looking forward to next season.

[babyjax13]

Like I said, Murray hasn't proven he's an average point guard yet. He might be. He has improved every year, and he could easily come in this year and prove he is above average, but this year is the test. He is finally freed of DeMar, who was just cancerous to him in particular. Murray needs to play in a way that takes advantage of his speed and which puts shooting around him. DeLoser being shackled to the starters killed that space for Murray.

I will say this about Murray. He is a very Marcus Smart type player. The dude makes winning plays, and hustles like crazy out there in alot of ways that don't show up on paper. It's why some Spurs fans like me are forgiving of his shortcomings and are willing to give him another chance. He has also improved his shooting. His mid-range shot is now money, and his 3pt shot is only a little bit sub-par given the spacing he worked with. If he comes in and shoots 35% this year off 5 attempts a game he looks alot more valuable; and that is a thing that could actually happen. He's also improved his finishing tonnes, but again that was hampered by DeLoser clogging the paint for him a tonne. I could do without him talking like he's the team's star player, that gets annoying. White is our star and our heartbeat. The team wins when White is healthy and starting and struggles when he is not.

That said I'm not keen to trade Murray unless it's a slam dunk.

This is about where I have him in my head, as well. He was one of my favorite targets if Conley left and there is a lot to like, but man the point guard position is absolutely stacked - has it ever been this strong?

[Wolveswin]

Again, not a huge fan of using Edwards for Simmons, but value works when Simmons++.

To Thunder: Edwards + Springer + Prince + 1-2 Philly Future 1sts (OKC already owns one, Presti can get creative)

To 76ers: SGA + Deck + Beverley + Under Tax

To Wolves: Simmons + Maxey (or Milton) + K. Williams (or other OKC filler) + 2022 Philly 1st

Thunder gets 3 year younger and more rookie contract of Edwards+ for SGA.

76ers get a young locked in guard for Simmons.

Wolves trade Edwards for Simmons+.

[Lovetron Joe]

Again, not a huge fan of using Edwards for Simmons, but value works when Simmons++.

To Thunder: Edwards + Springer + Prince + 1-2 Philly Future 1sts (OKC already owns one, Presti can get creative)

To 76ers: SGA + Deck + Beverley + Under Tax

To Wolves: Simmons + Maxey (or Milton) + K. Williams (or other OKC filler) + 2022 Philly 1st

Thunder gets 3 year younger and more rookie contract of Edwards+ for SGA.

76ers get a young locked in guard for Simmons.

Wolves trade Edwards for Simmons+.

Massive overpay by the Sixers. Basically Simmons, Maxey (a 1st) Springer (a 1st) and 2-3 additional 1sts. Simmons and 4-5 1sts for SGA, Deck (signed as an UDFA), and the 33 year old overpaid Beverley.

[Wolveswin]

Again, not a huge fan of using Edwards for Simmons, but value works when Simmons++.

To Thunder: Edwards + Springer + Prince + 1-2 Philly Future 1sts (OKC already owns one, Presti can get creative)

To 76ers: SGA + Deck + Beverley + Under Tax

To Wolves: Simmons + Maxey (or Milton) + K. Williams (or other OKC filler) + 2022 Philly 1st

Thunder gets 3 year younger and more rookie contract of Edwards+ for SGA.

76ers get a young locked in guard for Simmons.

Wolves trade Edwards for Simmons+.

Massive overpay by the Sixers. Basically Simmons, Maxey (a 1st) Springer (a 1st) and 2-3 additional 1sts. Simmons and 4-5 1sts for SGA, Deck (signed as an UDFA), and the 33 year old overpaid Beverley.

Maybe in a vacuum you would have reason to oversell Simmons value and very late 1sts (Springer and future 1sts). We all know Simmons isn’t being traded in a vacuum. Pages upon pages detailing his value is dictated by his current situation in Philly and his unique skill set (all the pluses and minuses alike).

[the_process]

Again, not a huge fan of using Edwards for Simmons, but value works when Simmons++.

To Thunder: Edwards + Springer + Prince + 1-2 Philly Future 1sts (OKC already owns one, Presti can get creative)

To 76ers: SGA + Deck + Beverley + Under Tax

To Wolves: Simmons + Maxey (or Milton) + K. Williams (or other OKC filler) + 2022 Philly 1st

Thunder gets 3 year younger and more rookie contract of Edwards+ for SGA.

76ers get a young locked in guard for Simmons.

Wolves trade Edwards for Simmons+.

Massive overpay by the Sixers. Basically Simmons, Maxey (a 1st) Springer (a 1st) and 2-3 additional 1sts. Simmons and 4-5 1sts for SGA, Deck (signed as an UDFA), and the 33 year old overpaid Beverley.

Simmons, Milton, and 2023 PHI 1st to MIN
Edwards, Prince, Springer, and protection removed from owed 2025 PHI 1st to OKC
SGA and Beverley to PHI

[NYG]

I wonder if Minnesota said they were making the following deal either way...

KAT and Beasley for McCollum, Nurkic, Simons and picks

If at that point Minnesota would just take McCollum plus picks in a three-team deal with Simmons going to Minnesota.

[Wolveswin]

I wonder if Minnesota said they were making the following deal either way...

KAT and Beasley for McCollum, Nurkic, Simons and picks

If at that point Minnesota would just take McCollum plus picks in a three-team deal with Simmons going to Minnesota.

Your KAT trade is just as ugly here as on main board. 28 other teams would best this offer. Errr 27 because Nets have no assets. Wait, 25 because either LA team has the assets for Towns. Getting that exact number is sure devil in the details.

But I think you get my point. More than 1/2 of NBA would come in with better offers means the offer is really pretty weak.

[rzzzzz]

The Wolves and Spurs high profile pursuit of Simmons is just as much kabuki as Morey’s inflated demands. The wolves have one borderline star (kind of a perfect opposite of Ben) who they can’t move without alienating the fan base. And nothing else that’s going to secure another borderline star. I don’t doubt that Pop would be a great mentor for Ben, but he’s too got nothing that could get the move done. But both FOs can earn a little cheap pr with the fans by going through the motions like they’re going to compete in the near term. Morey makes outrageous offers to flatter Ben and his representation about how highly his worth is valued, despite the deer in the headlights meme. Because there is a distinct probability that the Sixers are going to hold onto Ben until he’s got a chance to remind folks of his athleticism, stunted as it may be from lack of oncourt development. Dame is the only unconditional target. There are a couple of promising young guards that may be secondary targets, though the Sixers are loathe not to contend immediately with Embiid. There could also be some serious adaptation of Ben’s role with the team, both in terms of half court positioning and changes in end of game roster deployment. (Keeping Ben could surely be uncomfortable, but it wouldn’t be dull. Fans who have lived through the process are not all together unwilling to attend the good, the bad and the ugly.)

[Toine85]

Ben Simmons and a 1st rounder for Pascal Siakam?

Philly gets a fellow Cameroonian to make Embiid happy. Toronto gets the younger player and a 1st rounder for a player that seemed to have multiple outbursts towards Nick Nurse last year.

[Dr Positivity]

I can't see Philly being interested in a Minnesota package unless it's Edwards, and MIN won't do that even if it was dumping Russell at the same time, teams like MIN don't trade their #1 pick like that. Not to mention is Philly going after Russell/Edwards really that great of a direction for them?

[Bornstellar]

The Wolves and Spurs high profile pursuit of Simmons is just as much kabuki as Morey’s inflated demands. The wolves have one borderline star (kind of a perfect opposite of Ben) who they can’t move without alienating the fan base. And nothing else that’s going to secure another borderline star. I don’t doubt that Pop would be a great mentor for Ben, but he’s too got nothing that could get the move done. But both FOs can earn a little cheap pr with the fans by going through the motions like they’re going to compete in the near term. Morey makes outrageous offers to flatter Ben and his representation about how highly his worth is valued, despite the deer in the headlights meme. Because there is a distinct probability that the Sixers are going to hold onto Ben until he’s got a chance to remind folks of his athleticism, stunted as it may be from lack of oncourt development. Dame is the only unconditional target. There are a couple of promising young guards that may be secondary targets, though the Sixers are loathe not to contend immediately with Embiid. There could also be some serious adaptation of Ben’s role with the team, both in terms of half court positioning and changes in end of game roster deployment. (Keeping Ben could surely be uncomfortable, but it wouldn’t be dull. Fans who have lived through the process are not all together unwilling to attend the good, the bad and the ugly.)

Disagree, Spurs have a glut of rotational players and picks they could trade. The problem Morey has is that no one is going to trade a star player for Simmons, especially a disgruntled Simmons coming off an extremely poor playoff showing. He's not getting Lillard for Simmons, and no one is going to gut their roster and throw for 1st rounders or whatever silly thing he wants. Lillard is a pipedream, so is Beal. De'Aaron Fox is the most realistic high profile trade target, imo

A Simmons trade will likely revolve around 2-3 solid rotational players and draft capital. If you all think you're getting an all-star in return for Simmons to put next to Embiid, you're going to be disappointed. I'm not by any means saying SA is in the prime position to trade for him, but just pointing out that they have a glut of solid young guys (Murray, White, Walker) and draft capital (their own, Bulls 1st, numerous 2nds) they could use to make a decent offer. I really, really do not believe that Simmons will be in Philly when the season starts in 2 months.

The only star to get traded for a decent return in recent memory was Anthony Davis, and that was really only because the NBA gifted the Lakers the #4 pick, and Ingram had a major breakout season when he got to NOLA

[Dr Positivity]

Sticking with my 4 names

McCollum
Brogdon
VanVleet
Sexton

All four players could make all-star team next year for Sixers if things go right. If that's not good enough for Morey he's not getting a deal before the season starts and he has to risk things spiralling until midseason.

[SNPA]

Spurs get Davion Mitchell/Bagley/Kings 22 2nd
Kings get Simmons/Reed
Sixers get Murray/Barnes or Buddy/Kings first

The first, or possibly two, depends on if they take Buddy (better pick package) or Barnes (lower pick package).

[DWhiteMamba]

I see no reason for us to give the Sixers Murray for a young prospect we don't need, who is probably inferior in any event to Dejounte, all so we can help the Kings get Simmons. Let's just get Simmons ourselves if it's that cheap. Bagley is worthless IMO.