Bucks News, Trade Ideas, Transactions - Grayson Extended - 2/$20 million

[raferfenix]

You can't denigrate Reddick vs. Harris on defense. Neither are good.

Neither are good, but it’s less about comparing them in isolation, as opposed to committing big money (and additional assets) to invest in Redick as a 3 flanked by a backcourt with Monta + Jennings (with the hope that a past his prime Josh Smith would round out the rotation).

Of course the Redick as a 3 plan failed miserably almost immediately and Redick bailed for nothing as a free agent.

[ShootingtheJ]

Would be interested in a retrospective of worst Hammond moves.

Not sure if we can count non-moves like chasing Josh Smith, however, pairing Monta Ellis with Jennings and then trading Tobes for Redick (because who cares about defense I guess) was some real GM’ing.

You can't denigrate Reddick vs. Harris on defense. Neither are good.

Harris has become a very good defender.

[BigO]

I have to say a dude coming onto this board and telling us what we spent hours debating was fiction, calling him 'Hammonds' unsarcastically, calling him the championship architect then downplaying the actual FO in charge for some years before we actually broke through is all pretty great.

Sometimes it's better to be loud than informed.

Oh, and did I mention that there is no championship without Hammond? It's a simple concept and one can hate everything else he did, but being informed means accepting reality and crediting people even when you don't want to.

Horst was Hammond's gopher and has done a decent job. Getting Holiday was an obvious move, but getting Lopez was not, and he has been fantastic. Signing Portis and Tucker were great moves. There's always misses, but he's been decent.

The two key moves that no one else was calling for at the time was Giannis and Khris. And no revisionism can debunk that. Call it luck, call it anything you want.

[crowhead76]

I have to say a dude coming onto this board and telling us what we spent hours debating was fiction, calling him 'Hammonds' unsarcastically, calling him the championship architect then downplaying the actual FO in charge for some years before we actually broke through is all pretty great.

Sometimes it's better to be loud than informed.

Oh, and did I mention that there is no championship without Hammond? It's a simple concept and one can hate everything else he did, but being informed means accepting reality and crediting people even when you don't want to.

Horst was Hammond's gopher and has done a decent job. Getting Holiday was an obvious move, but getting Lopez was not, and he has been fantastic. Signing Portis and Tucker were great moves. There's always misses, but he's been decent.

The two key moves that no one else was calling for at the time was Giannis and Khris. And no revisionism can debunk that. Call it luck, call it anything you want.

I do not think anyone has said that Hammond does not deserve credit and appreciation for drafting Giannis and trading for Khris, however your inability to give credit or show appreciation for what Horst and his team have done proves you to be nothing more than a stubborn self serving hypocrite. Hammond deserves credit for drafting Giannis and acquiring Khris, Horst deserves credit for taking the roster he was giving it and making the correct moves to eventually win an NBA Championship. Many have the opinion that Hammond would not have made the same moves as Horst and would have wasted the pick of Giannis and the acquisition of Kris, and based on track record I think that is completely fair. 2 moves alone do not make a championship. I am not sure why this is so complicated for you to concede? I would tell you it is time to sit down and shut up but we all are very aware about your opinions on standing.

[ShootingtheJ]

The biggest move Horst has made is not a player acquisition, it was landing Bud as coach. That changed the culture here, and gave us an organization that finally embraced analytics, sports science, and player development.

[blazza18]

The biggest move Horst has made is not a player acquisition, it was landing Bud as coach. That changed the culture here, and gave us an organization that finally embraced analytics, sports science, and player development.

How do you think he got Bud here?

[RiotPunch]

The biggest move Horst has made is not a player acquisition, it was landing Bud as coach. That changed the culture here, and gave us an organization that finally embraced analytics, sports science, and player development.

How do you think he got Bud here?

[raferfenix]

Bud aside, Horst also persuaded LED to let him fire Kidd.

We keep Hammond and Kidd might have ended up his boss.

Kidd was obviously gunning for the POBO position the whole time considering all the leaks towards these ends.

[Fotis St]

Please stop building this positive narrative about Horst, cause I'll need about 2 pages analyzing his negative decisions, exposing his incompetence.
Signing an illegal contract to Pat, failing to make a huge Trade Exception from the Brogdon trade, failing to keep the Bogdanovic trade within the rules, giving Snell a 4/48M with a PLAYER option on his 4th year at the 1st minute of free agency, a contract that he had to attach a 1st to get rid off... I mean we won the ring , but it would be wise to remember the full course of everyone's career and their moves.
Don't overreact and try to polish ALL our Franchise into the best in the NBA. We still have alot to improve.

[raferfenix]

Horst definitely made mistakes.

And if Durant’s toe wasn’t on the line we’d be endlessly going over all of them. That’d also be the case if Giannis actually torched his knee in the ECF as opposed to making one of the most freakish comebacks in league history.

However since we won a ring Horst gets all the credit he earned if only from the Holiday trade.

That was one of the ballsiest moves a NBA GM has made…ever?

[M-C-G]

However since we won a ring Horst gets all the credit he earned if only from the Holiday trade.

That was one of the ballsiest moves a NBA GM has made…ever?

Here are some Horsty moves that I think without, we very likely don't win a title this year;
1. Trading for Tucker; that trade was objectively fantastic
2. Talking Portis into signing a below market deal, or at the very least presenting his below market deal to him and his agent last year as an option
3. Resigned Pat, to what ended up being a below market deal even though it didn't feel like it at the time
4. Going all in on Jrue, was a very big ball move

He was good on the margins this season.

I guess, I would like to compare him to another great GM before I focused too much on his negatives. I think there is a certain amount of moves that you regret and learn from. Feels like he has been able to work with Bud and they've collectively made a lot of really shrewd moves, and they have convinced almost every key guy to resign for a slightly below market value (Midds, Jrue, Brook, Portis and obviously Giannis who resigned max)

I feel like they have looked in a lot of nooks and crannies and haven't been afraid to pivot if it isn't working, which is very unlike the team under Kidd.

[Fotis St]

Horst definitely made mistakes.

And if Durant’s toe wasn’t on the line we’d be endlessly going over all of them. That’d also be the case if Giannis actually torched his knee in the ECF as opposed to making one of the most freakish comebacks in league history.

However since we won a ring Horst gets all the credit he earned if only from the Holiday trade.

That was one of the ballsiest moves a NBA GM has made…ever?

Yeah lets forget 2-3 years 20 all stars getting traded without pulling the trigger to pile assets and get one here, until Giannis admitting that he is anxious if the Franchise is at the same page ...
He piled all Bucks Future assets and got Jrue. Our obvious 2 target options were CP3 & Jrue.
He got Jrue the most reasonable choice but many can argue that we could have won the ring even with CP3.

So no , sorry to remind you all the details, Horst was "forced" to go ALL IN on either CP3 or Jrue. It was not one of the ballsiest NBA GM's move ever, it was actually a no brainer that can't go wrong.
I am really happy we did it with Jrue, with Bud, with Horst, with Khris , with all of you realgm posters here. It was awesome but lets stay humble, honest without hiding our weaknesses and flaws.

[blazza18]

The Pat contract stuff up was so odd. Would love to know how that one was stuffed up. Horst quite fortunate that one wasn't as big of a deal as it could've been.

[BigO]

Sometimes it's better to be loud than informed.

Oh, and did I mention that there is no championship without Hammond? It's a simple concept and one can hate everything else he did, but being informed means accepting reality and crediting people even when you don't want to.

Horst was Hammond's gopher and has done a decent job. Getting Holiday was an obvious move, but getting Lopez was not, and he has been fantastic. Signing Portis and Tucker were great moves. There's always misses, but he's been decent.

The two key moves that no one else was calling for at the time was Giannis and Khris. And no revisionism can debunk that. Call it luck, call it anything you want.

I do not think anyone has said that Hammond does not deserve credit and appreciation for drafting Giannis and trading for Khris, however your inability to give credit or show appreciation for what Horst and his team have done proves you to be nothing more than a stubborn self serving hypocrite. Hammond deserves credit for drafting Giannis and acquiring Khris, Horst deserves credit for taking the roster he was giving it and making the correct moves to eventually win an NBA Championship. Many have the opinion that Hammond would not have made the same moves as Horst and would have wasted the pick of Giannis and the acquisition of Kris, and based on track record I think that is completely fair. 2 moves alone do not make a championship. I am not sure why this is so complicated for you to concede? I would tell you it is time to sit down and shut up but we all are very aware about your opinions on standing.

1) Reading comprehension alludes you. I said multiple times Horst has done a good job. Good, not great.

2) I never said two moves make a championship. I said the two most important moves were made by Hammond and he gets little credit for that. Not a complicated concept.

[TroyD92]

Who are these mythical good gms? I feel like they all have major blemishes and some have accomplished a lot. Horst being one.

[raferfenix]

Even if Horst really did make a stupid goof and then felt compelled to give Connaughton an extra year on his contract, that turned out for the best for us considering his performance since, so idk how much you can really fault him for it.

Here’s Horst talking about it with Eric Nehm December 2020:

Nehm: You re-signed Pat Connaughton and I’m a little confused about how it went down. Initially, there was a report that you agreed to a two-year deal with a player option that would have used part of your mid-level exception instead of his early Bird rights. But it ends up being a three-year deal with a player option in the third year. How did that happen?

Horst: I respect the folks in the media and the job they do. Often, it seems, there’s such a rush to report things. On our side of this business, there are negotiations built on partnerships and relationships and often deals take time. I’m sure it’s a more interesting read to write the story that we don’t know what we’re doing, it’s too complicated, use the momentum from previous stories, etc. We know what we’re doing. Maybe not as interesting to say a deal wasn’t done, negotiations and discussions are still evolving. We’ve done some complex things in the last few years and got it done and figured it out. We were negotiating and trying to figure out a deal that would work for Pat and us. His agent Jeff Schwartz is a great friend and partner, and we had avenues that we could use and different ways to approach deals with Pat. But we went into free agency knowing that we wanted to keep Pat. And I think Pat loves it here and wanted to be here, but I also believe a lot of teams value Pat and he had a market. I know, because a lot of teams have called about Pat in the last couple of years.

But I think we landed in a really good spot with him. It was an advantage that we had different ways to approach it. It’s partially why Bird rights are valuable, to have those as an option to use to sign guys and you’re not using cap – that was an advantage. And so frankly, I was surprised by a lot of stuff that was written in the process of negotiating a deal with Pat. There’s not a better answer than that. Again, you’re just trying to figure it out, like you’re literally going through real time. If people want to report stuff in real time as fact and final, that’s fine. If it gets done that way, that’s great. If it doesn’t, then that’s O.K. too. These things don’t always just land where they start, it’s often a bit more complex than that.

https://theathletic.com/2285503/2020/12/29/bucks-gm-jon-horst-on-giannis-extension-offseason-moves-his-coach-and-more/?source=rss

[thonnisbeastley]

The guy who took Tobias and gave up on him as he was beginning to bud as a player for JJ Redick. The guy who took Parker > Embiid.

Tobias Harris did nothing as a Buck. If you argue that he should have known he was ready to blossom, you are arguing that he should have gotten rid of Kidd. Embiid was reasonably thought to be the next Greg Oden, so that's not damnable.

Obviously he did nothing as a Buck, he was traded after being relegated to the bench as a 20 year old in his 2nd year. But he showed obvious and clear improvement from his rookie season in that first month when he was allowed to play. Was pretty clear he was going to be a starter in the league.

[Baddy Chuck]

Tobias Harris did nothing as a Buck. If you argue that he should have known he was ready to blossom, you are arguing that he should have gotten rid of Kidd.

He literally did fire the coach that benched Tobias Harris for Marquis Daniels.

[Fotis St]

My fellow Bucks fans, it's justified to celebrate our ring and give credit to everybody involved, but it is not wise to suddenly erase every mistake that alot made during our journey.

If Durant's foot was behind the 3pt line then Bud and Horst would most probably be fired, Khris and Jrue would probably be on the trade block for whoever superstar is available.
It didn't happen , but let's not forget how close we were to get eliminated.

Even Bud was just throwing away the 1st two games of the series to figure out opponents schemes and make adjustments. Khris was a bit inconsistent between home games and on the road and Jrue's shooting was not going well.

So celebrating is OK but let's review and be honest evaluating some of our flaws and correct them. Imo we need to improve to get to the Finals again. It would cement our Legacy to get out of the East twice in row and if we repeat it would be the start of our Dynasty. I believe Champs Khris & Jrue elevate their game to shut up all the doubters and claim the respect they miss from around the league.

[higharc]

Just a short question.
We are receiving 1M from the Memphis trade.
Is this deliberate to relieve the tax implications from Jrue championship bonus, or just a coincidence?