Bucks News, Trade Ideas, Transactions - Grayson Extended - 2/$20 million

[ReasonablySober]

Current franchise valuation for the Bucks is at $1.6 billion according to Forbes. LED bought the team for $550 million in 2014. They've literally made a billion dollar profit in 7 years. At least he said one of the quiet parts out loud (we're not counting playoff revenue), but this is classic "woe is us rich folk" talk and it's a whole load of BS.

I mean, no they haven't. They have something that's worth a lot more now than what they paid for, but until they sell it they haven't seen that profit.

[emunney]

I would say they could write operating losses but since all their income is probably unrealized gains I guess they don't really give a ****. I'm sure they're just living high off the hog borrowing off their assets, which they'll leave to their kids when they die with a stepped up basis and never have to pay a penny of taxes on any of it.

[emunney]

Current franchise valuation for the Bucks is at $1.6 billion according to Forbes. LED bought the team for $550 million in 2014. They've literally made a billion dollar profit in 7 years. At least he said one of the quiet parts out loud (we're not counting playoff revenue), but this is classic "woe is us rich folk" talk and it's a whole load of BS.

I mean, no they haven't. They have something that's worth a lot more now than what they paid for, but until they sell it they haven't seen that profit.

Yeah, that's not really true, because you can borrow more against a more valuable asset.

[ReasonablySober]

Current franchise valuation for the Bucks is at $1.6 billion according to Forbes. LED bought the team for $550 million in 2014. They've literally made a billion dollar profit in 7 years. At least he said one of the quiet parts out loud (we're not counting playoff revenue), but this is classic "woe is us rich folk" talk and it's a whole load of BS.

I mean, no they haven't. They have something that's worth a lot more now than what they paid for, but until they sell it they haven't seen that profit.

Yeah, that's not really true, because you can borrow more against a more valuable asset.

True.

[MickeyDavis]

The Bucks always operated in the red under Kohl (he spent but spent unwisely). He said in an interview once that he knew he'd recoup (and a lot more) when he sold. Which he did. So will LED. I never figured them to be here long term. They'll sell in the next 5 years IMO. Or at least some of them will.

It's a little different with the Brewers. Attanasio has said the ownership group expects to make a profit each year and they operate accordingly. Despite the fact that they bought the team for $223 million and it has a current valuation of $1.22 billion. A similar $1 billion increase as the Bucks (but a much longer timeframe). And of course the economics of MLB is much different with no cap and a wide gap in revenue due to local TV deals. As principal owner I'm not sure how much of the Brewers Attanasio owns but he's talked about his family continuing to own/run the team after he retires/dies.

[MikeIsGood]

You don't have to cut them any slack - they don't need pity or understanding. I'm just offering a realistic take about a business operating at a loss. It's not a fan's problem, but an honest take on a business.

But again, I do not buy that they're losing money.

[Ron Swanson]

I guess it's semantics so I'll retract my misuse of the term "literally", but we measure wealth in asset value, not physical cash flow. They've essentially made a billion dollars in 7 years. I just roll my eyes when these guys try and convince the fanbase and city that forked over $250 million in tax dollars for the arena that an extra $20-30 million in luxury tax is just too expensive...

[Baddy Chuck]

Sometimes I just wish they'd come out and say "**** you I own the team not you" and I'd be more inclined to say yeah well you got a point then all the bs they spout constantly.

[SupremeHustle]

When rich people say they are going to "lose money" a lot of the time they are not talking about actually losing money, they are talking about not making as much as they potentially could have.

[giannis and 1]

How do we even know how much influence Hammond had on the Giannis pick. Maybe he just took the guy that the scouts agreed on?

If Mark Cuban had listened to his head scout, Donnie Nelson Jr,, they'd have Giannis. He didn't.

Shouldn’t that be the default way that an org is run? Scouts do the scouting. GM’s job is to pick the guy they tell you to, or else get new scouts if you don’t value their opinion. Don’t think a GM should really be commended that much for doing what they should be doing.

[giannis and 1]

How do we even know how much influence Hammond had on the Giannis pick. Maybe he just took the guy that the scouts agreed on?

If Mark Cuban had listened to his head scout, Donnie Nelson Jr,, they'd have Giannis. He didn't.

The story was always that Drew was the one who pushed for Giannis, as Atlanta had scouted him a bit. So what BigO is saying is that we should be thankful that Hammond hired Drew. That was actually his best move.

The Middleton stuff is actually hilarious. Like if Hammond was hell-bent on Mids, why didn't he start all season or be announced as the centrepiece of the trade.

Lol.

If this is true, then yes Hammond deserves credit IMO.

[WRau1]

How do we even know how much influence Hammond had on the Giannis pick. Maybe he just took the guy that the scouts agreed on?

If Mark Cuban had listened to his head scout, Donnie Nelson Jr,, they'd have Giannis. He didn't.

The story was always that Drew was the one who pushed for Giannis, as Atlanta had scouted him a bit. So what BigO is saying is that we should be thankful that Hammond hired Drew. That was actually his best move.

The Middleton stuff is actually hilarious. Like if Hammond was hell-bent on Mids, why didn't he start all season or be announced as the centrepiece of the trade.

Lol.

There are insiders that still lurk here that posted more back on those days, a number of them were pretty clear in that Hammond insisted on adding Middleton to the deal. Was it a deal breaker? I don't remember it being that but I do remember more than one guy, with a track history of being correct, saying that Middleton wasn't just a throw in.

[giannis and 1]

I mean, I get it. You won’t want to operate at a loss. And even being uber rich, I don’t think we can really say that they should just because they can.

But I also don’t really buy it. Maybe it’s true, but seems unlikely to me for whatever reason. Like you just won a championship and are operating to break even in the regular season? No business person would want in on that model, surely.

Seems like he’s leaving out a lot of things in that lol. Championship increases the valuation of the team.

Losing Giannis (which could partially be/have been a result of not spending in the luxury tax) significantly decreases the valuation of the team. Meaning a loss of hundreds of millions.

[thonnisbeastley]

If they're currently breaking even or "potentially" going to be operating at a $25-35M loss over the course of the regular season due to luxury tax implications, they easily made it all back and turned a profit just by reaching the finals. These guys can get **** and pony up that tax money. Herb and us ponied up $350M of it to give them the new arena, training facility, and deer district pavilion that actually made it enjoyable to hang out in that area of town. We also ponied up all of that increased ticket/merchandising revenue to visit the arena we paid for and to support the team. Also* hedge funds made out like **** bandits during the pandemic, so there's no way in hell these **** are "losing" anything. It won't affect their personal income and they'll just write the loss off and avoid paying state/federal taxes anyway like billionaires do, offsetting any NBA tax they have to pay.

[Perishable517]

If Mark Cuban had listened to his head scout, Donnie Nelson Jr,, they'd have Giannis. He didn't.

The story was always that Drew was the one who pushed for Giannis, as Atlanta had scouted him a bit. So what BigO is saying is that we should be thankful that Hammond hired Drew. That was actually his best move.

The Middleton stuff is actually hilarious. Like if Hammond was hell-bent on Mids, why didn't he start all season or be announced as the centrepiece of the trade.

Lol.

There are insiders that still lurk here that posted more back on those days, a number of them were pretty clear in that Hammond insisted on adding Middleton to the deal. Was it a deal breaker? I don't remember it being that but I do remember more than one guy, with a track history of being correct, saying that Middleton wasn't just a throw in.

I remember all of that back in the day.

Sent from my HTC U11 using RealGM mobile app

[Jez2983]

The story was always that Drew was the one who pushed for Giannis, as Atlanta had scouted him a bit. So what BigO is saying is that we should be thankful that Hammond hired Drew. That was actually his best move.

The Middleton stuff is actually hilarious. Like if Hammond was hell-bent on Mids, why didn't he start all season or be announced as the centrepiece of the trade.

Lol.

There are insiders that still lurk here that posted more back on those days, a number of them were pretty clear in that Hammond insisted on adding Middleton to the deal. Was it a deal breaker? I don't remember it being that but I do remember more than one guy, with a track history of being correct, saying that Middleton wasn't just a throw in.

I remember all of that back in the day.

Sent from my HTC U11 using RealGM mobile app

Yeah, I remember that too now that you guys mention it. I'm happy to give Hammond his dues and thank him for getting us our two best playere, but trying to annoint him as some amazing GM and denigrating all who followed doesn't sit well with me. Obviously there's only one person doing that though, so buggered if I know why I care about the record

Thanks for the trip down memory lane fellas.

[paulpressey25]

The full podcast on the Athletic with Lasry is worth a listen.

https://theathletic.com/podcast/8-the-nba-show/?episode=467

None of the takeaways were particularly new. You know he loves to meddle and at one point Sam Amick referred to his son Alex texting him (Sam Amick) with a "We're world champions, expletive, expletive". i.e. Alex likely pesters the crap out of these writers.

Lasry did though on a number of occasions say that Jrue was all Horst's idea. Even seemed to indicate that Horst wanted Jrue over Chris Paul, partly because of the incredible defense Jrue can play. Have to say, it does seem like Horst learned from Hammond, but is just flat out smarter than Hammond on the player personnel front, despite some of the salary cap miscues (Pat's contract, etc.)

To that end, Lasry also said they they talked with Giannis extensively last off-season over who Giannis wanted the team to acquire. Not unexpected but interesting that Giannis evidently had a big list.

It was worth the listen.

[Swan Vox]

Alex Antetokounmpo sighting at Bucks camp in a Bucks shirt…did we end up signing him somehow? I thought he was in kings camp….

[MartyConlonOnTheRun]

If they're currently breaking even or "potentially" going to be operating at a $25-35M loss over the course of the regular season due to luxury tax implications, they easily made it all back and turned a profit just by reaching the finals. These guys can get **** and pony up that tax money. Herb and us ponied up $350M of it to give them the new arena, training facility, and deer district pavilion that actually made it enjoyable to hang out in that area of town. We also ponied up all of that increased ticket/merchandising revenue to visit the arena we paid for and to support the team. Also* hedge funds made out like **** bandits during the pandemic, so there's no way in hell these **** are "losing" anything. It won't affect their personal income and they'll just write the loss off and avoid paying state/federal taxes anyway like billionaires do, offsetting any NBA tax they have to pay.

Not to defend the owners since I think they deserve zero pity if you look into their other ventures but:
1. I don't think "oh if we achieve the same level of success we did last year (which was the first time we did it in 50 years!) we will break even" is a great way to run a business.
2. Although ticket prices are crazy high, my corner lower level seats are $2600. I would have to buy 10,000 season ticket packages (and that is erroneously assuming gross revenue from my tickets is 1-1 for bottom line impact of an expense) to make up for the tax impact of the shell of PJ MF-ing Tucker. I think people get lost in how big these figures are and how little of a drop in the bucket our seats and beers are in the grand scheme of things.
3. I think we all are overrating a tax writeoff. Making this up and correct me if I'm wrong, but for every million dollars that they use as a write-off, they 'only' save 300k in taxes. Its still 700k out of their pockets. It's not a 1-1 offset. They are greedy guys so of course they don't want to lose money. Write-offs are only a good deal on expenses you would have regardless.

I still they they need to go into the tax as a cost of doing business (which they did and feel upgraded the team). I just find it weird that people are so upset about not spending an extra $25m to keep PJ. Doubt anyone here in their shoes would actually spend the money.

[MartyConlonOnTheRun]

Would've been interesting what a prime Larry Sanders/Giannis pairing would've looked like if Sanders wasn't a total a-hole. Hard to know how the Monroe singing/Bledsoe trade type of stuff would've went down, but a Brogdon, Midds, Giannis, Sanders would've been a hell of a defensive team.