Ben Simmons Containment Thread Take 3

[Bornstellar]

So new reports indicate Sacramento is not giving up Hali or Fox and GS talks are not even really alive.

He will be a Spur or T-Wolf imo

[Sportfan73]

I like this one for all three teams and works under the cap:

Portland Trades: McCollum and Roco
Portland gets: Simmons and Justin Holiday

Indiana Trades: Brogdon and Holiday
Indiana Gets: Maxey and Roco

Philly Trades: Simmons and Maxey
Philly Gets: Brogdon and McCollum


Portland gets Simmons to pair with Lilliard and the sahooters on that team.

Indiana pairs a young budding star with Lavert and Sabonis. Love love this for Indiana

Philly gets solid veteran all start type players who are big time shooters to go with Embiid to make a run for the title.

I love this deal for Portland. I mind it less than most for Philly. But I'm confused. Is Maxey supposed to be a young, budding star? Because that feels like a pretty massive leap at this point, no?

Maybe Portland is sending a first to Indy and so is Philly?

[jpatrick]

I like this one for all three teams and works under the cap:

Portland Trades: McCollum and Roco
Portland gets: Simmons and Justin Holiday

Indiana Trades: Brogdon and Holiday
Indiana Gets: Maxey and Roco

Philly Trades: Simmons and Maxey
Philly Gets: Brogdon and McCollum


Portland gets Simmons to pair with Lilliard and the sahooters on that team.

Indiana pairs a young budding star with Lavert and Sabonis. Love love this for Indiana

Philly gets solid veteran all start type players who are big time shooters to go with Embiid to make a run for the title.

I love this deal for Portland. I mind it less than most for Philly. But I'm confused. Is Maxey supposed to be a young, budding star? Because that feels like a pretty massive leap at this point, no?

Maybe Portland is sending a first to Indy and so is Philly?

Is Morey completely willing to give up on a superstar (Lillard, Beal, etc) coming available by the deadline? Brogdon/CJ would have zero value to a rebuilding team and Philly is giving up one of their young players. They’d have no chance to put a competitive package together.

This is also awful for Indy. I think if they are giving up Brogdon, they’d want Simmons for themselves. They are trying to win this year.

[Sportfan73]

I love this deal for Portland. I mind it less than most for Philly. But I'm confused. Is Maxey supposed to be a young, budding star? Because that feels like a pretty massive leap at this point, no?

Maybe Portland is sending a first to Indy and so is Philly?

Is Morey completely willing to give up on a superstar (Lillard, Beal, etc) coming available by the deadline? Brogdon/CJ would have zero value to a rebuilding team and Philly is giving up one of their young players. They’d have no chance to put a competitive package together.

This is also awful for Indy. I think if they are giving up Brogdon, they’d want Simmons for themselves. They are trying to win this year.

Personally I’d rather get CJ, Roco, and a 25 first. Then you have Green(expiring), curry(great value deal for third team), maxey, thybulle, and 4 firsts as your star offer to add to CJ/Harris/Embiid

[BullyKing]

Maybe Portland is sending a first to Indy and so is Philly?

Is Morey completely willing to give up on a superstar (Lillard, Beal, etc) coming available by the deadline? Brogdon/CJ would have zero value to a rebuilding team and Philly is giving up one of their young players. They’d have no chance to put a competitive package together.

This is also awful for Indy. I think if they are giving up Brogdon, they’d want Simmons for themselves. They are trying to win this year.

Personally I’d rather get CJ, Roco, and a 25 first. Then you have Green(expiring), curry(great value deal for third team), maxey, thybulle, and 4 firsts as your star offer to add to CJ/Harris/Embiid

Let me ask this. Let's say there is a star available and they are willing to trade him to the Sixers for a package consisting of Maxey, Thybulle and all of our 1sts.

Now for salary filler, they are fine taking either Green and Curry as you lay out or just taking McCollum instead. Wouldn't you rather trade McCollum over Green and Curry? I sure would. So either my question is flawed because the other team wouldn't except CJ over Green and Curry or they would and we'd still prefer them to take CJ. So what does that say about McCollum's value?

[Texas Chuck]

Let me ask this. Let's say there is a star available and they are willing to trade him to the Sixers for a package consisting of Maxey, Thybulle and all of our 1sts.

Now for salary filler, they are fine taking either Green and Curry as you lay out or just taking McCollum instead. Wouldn't you rather trade McCollum over Green and Curry? I sure would. So either my question is flawed because the other team wouldn't except CJ over Green and Curry or they would and we'd still prefer them to take CJ. So what does that say about McCollum's value?

This is an interesting question. I think in most cases I would rather keep Green/Curry over CJ and 100% have Green/Curry value higher than CJ's. But let's for a minute say that this star in question wasn't really a great shot creator but was a great shooter/defender(I don't know that this player actually exist, but just talking in theory--imagine prime, not hurt Klay Thompson say) and I decided that CJ was a better fit for me.

What team trading a star would rather take on $100M in CJ over taking Green/Curry especially since they could immediately flip Curry for some additional future value? I think the seller would dictate taking Green/Curry or require additional incentives to take CJ instead. I can't really imagine a scenario where a seller would say you choose which of these you want to send me. I think to take CJ Philly would have to add more assets.

Because even if you could flip CJ for expirings to avoid saddling the seller with $100M, you couldn't also return the additional value that Seth would return.

[mademan]

Beasley and 4 pick/3 swap package might end up being the best. Also keeps Philly in prime position to get the next star that demands out, hopefully this season for their sake

[Sportfan73]

Is Morey completely willing to give up on a superstar (Lillard, Beal, etc) coming available by the deadline? Brogdon/CJ would have zero value to a rebuilding team and Philly is giving up one of their young players. They’d have no chance to put a competitive package together.

This is also awful for Indy. I think if they are giving up Brogdon, they’d want Simmons for themselves. They are trying to win this year.

Personally I’d rather get CJ, Roco, and a 25 first. Then you have Green(expiring), curry(great value deal for third team), maxey, thybulle, and 4 firsts as your star offer to add to CJ/Harris/Embiid

Let me ask this. Let's say there is a star available and they are willing to trade him to the Sixers for a package consisting of Maxey, Thybulle and all of our 1sts.

Now for salary filler, they are fine taking either Green and Curry as you lay out or just taking McCollum instead. Wouldn't you rather trade McCollum over Green and Curry? I sure would. So either my question is flawed because the other team wouldn't except CJ over Green and Curry or they would and we'd still prefer them to take CJ. So what does that say about McCollum's value?

Not necessarily no. Star power wins in the league especially when it involves spacing. I also think he ages really really well

[Sportfan73]

Read on Twitter

?s=21
Blazers jumped to 2/1

[Myth]

Is Morey completely willing to give up on a superstar (Lillard, Beal, etc) coming available by the deadline? Brogdon/CJ would have zero value to a rebuilding team and Philly is giving up one of their young players. They’d have no chance to put a competitive package together.

This is also awful for Indy. I think if they are giving up Brogdon, they’d want Simmons for themselves. They are trying to win this year.

Personally I’d rather get CJ, Roco, and a 25 first. Then you have Green(expiring), curry(great value deal for third team), maxey, thybulle, and 4 firsts as your star offer to add to CJ/Harris/Embiid

Let me ask this. Let's say there is a star available and they are willing to trade him to the Sixers for a package consisting of Maxey, Thybulle and all of our 1sts.

Now for salary filler, they are fine taking either Green and Curry as you lay out or just taking McCollum instead. Wouldn't you rather trade McCollum over Green and Curry? I sure would. So either my question is flawed because the other team wouldn't except CJ over Green and Curry or they would and we'd still prefer them to take CJ. So what does that say about McCollum's value?

Outside of saving money, I don't know why you'd rather have Green/Curry over McCollum. If I were Phili, I would much rather have the on court production of CJ. But then, I do know you have been a notorious CJ hater, maybe to the point of being blinded by the positives he does bring.

[BullyKing]

Let me ask this. Let's say there is a star available and they are willing to trade him to the Sixers for a package consisting of Maxey, Thybulle and all of our 1sts.

Now for salary filler, they are fine taking either Green and Curry as you lay out or just taking McCollum instead. Wouldn't you rather trade McCollum over Green and Curry? I sure would. So either my question is flawed because the other team wouldn't except CJ over Green and Curry or they would and we'd still prefer them to take CJ. So what does that say about McCollum's value?

This is an interesting question. I think in most cases I would rather keep Green/Curry over CJ and 100% have Green/Curry value higher than CJ's. But let's for a minute say that this star in question wasn't really a great shot creator but was a great shooter/defender(I don't know that this player actually exist, but just talking in theory--imagine prime, not hurt Klay Thompson say) and I decided that CJ was a better fit for me.

What team trading a star would rather take on $100M in CJ over taking Green/Curry especially since they could immediately flip Curry for some additional future value? I think the seller would dictate taking Green/Curry or require additional incentives to take CJ instead. I can't really imagine a scenario where a seller would say you choose which of these you want to send me. I think to take CJ Philly would have to add more assets.

Because even if you could flip CJ for expirings to avoid saddling the seller with $100M, you couldn't also return the additional value that Seth would return.

So let's say this star is the defender/shooter type and you still need a shot creator. I mean theoretically at that point you could just trade Green and Curry for McCollum or his value equivalent since we both seem to agree that Green/Curry are more valuable than McCollum. Or you could only need to move one of them depending on the contract size of this replacement shot creator. Either way, you have a ton more flexibility with Green/Curry rather than McCollum even over the excess value they represent.

Which all sort of just gets back to the real point I was making: McCollum has no value and any move to actually improve the team (which this clearly doesn't) is just made even more difficult because it raises the same question Portland currently faces in any proposed trade to make them better: Who is getting stuck with McCollum's contract?

[Myth]

Portland would not trade CJ for Seth and Green to be clear.

[Texas Chuck]

But then, I do know you have been a notorious CJ hater, maybe to the point of being blinded by the positives he does bring.

Man do I hate this kind of argument. I get accused all the time by posters of being haters when I don't value their players highly enough, including CJ himself. But not one poster has ever been able to explain my motivation for being a hater and I doubt you can for BK on CJ.

It's fine to argue with him about which package to take, but I sure wish we could give good posters the benefit of the doubt that their reasoning goes beyond "hate".

[Myth]

But then, I do know you have been a notorious CJ hater, maybe to the point of being blinded by the positives he does bring.

Man do I hate this kind of argument. I get accused all the time by posters of being haters when I don't value their players highly enough, including CJ himself. But not one poster has ever been able to explain my motivation for being a hater and I doubt you can for BK on CJ.

It's fine to argue with him about which package to take, but I sure wish we could give good posters the benefit of the doubt that their reasoning goes beyond "hate".

Fine, I'll change my wording. He notoriously rates CJ low.

[BullyKing]

Personally I’d rather get CJ, Roco, and a 25 first. Then you have Green(expiring), curry(great value deal for third team), maxey, thybulle, and 4 firsts as your star offer to add to CJ/Harris/Embiid

Let me ask this. Let's say there is a star available and they are willing to trade him to the Sixers for a package consisting of Maxey, Thybulle and all of our 1sts.

Now for salary filler, they are fine taking either Green and Curry as you lay out or just taking McCollum instead. Wouldn't you rather trade McCollum over Green and Curry? I sure would. So either my question is flawed because the other team wouldn't except CJ over Green and Curry or they would and we'd still prefer them to take CJ. So what does that say about McCollum's value?

Not necessarily no. Star power wins in the league especially when it involves spacing. I also think he ages really really well

Star power wins in the league when the player is actually a star. And if McCollum has such spacing star power then why has he never won anything? Or is your hope that Embiid is just vastly better than Dame and can carry McCollum to places Dame never could? Because I ain't buying that line of thought either.

[BullyKing]

Personally I’d rather get CJ, Roco, and a 25 first. Then you have Green(expiring), curry(great value deal for third team), maxey, thybulle, and 4 firsts as your star offer to add to CJ/Harris/Embiid

Let me ask this. Let's say there is a star available and they are willing to trade him to the Sixers for a package consisting of Maxey, Thybulle and all of our 1sts.

Now for salary filler, they are fine taking either Green and Curry as you lay out or just taking McCollum instead. Wouldn't you rather trade McCollum over Green and Curry? I sure would. So either my question is flawed because the other team wouldn't except CJ over Green and Curry or they would and we'd still prefer them to take CJ. So what does that say about McCollum's value?

Outside of saving money, I don't know why you'd rather have Green/Curry over McCollum. If I were Phili, I would much rather have the on court production of CJ. But then, I do know you have been a notorious CJ hater, maybe to the point of being blinded by the positives he does bring.

Because they're better collectively? Curry is a better shooter than McCollum, Green is obviously a vastly better defender. Sure that's two players vs. one but the two combined make half of what McCollum makes.

[Myth]

Let me ask this. Let's say there is a star available and they are willing to trade him to the Sixers for a package consisting of Maxey, Thybulle and all of our 1sts.

Now for salary filler, they are fine taking either Green and Curry as you lay out or just taking McCollum instead. Wouldn't you rather trade McCollum over Green and Curry? I sure would. So either my question is flawed because the other team wouldn't except CJ over Green and Curry or they would and we'd still prefer them to take CJ. So what does that say about McCollum's value?

Not necessarily no. Star power wins in the league especially when it involves spacing. I also think he ages really really well

Star power wins in the league when the player is actually a star. And if McCollum has such spacing star power then why has he never won anything? Or is your hope that Embiid is just vastly better than Dame and can carry McCollum to places Dame never could? Because I ain't buying that line of thought either.

CJ and Dame are pretty redundant. CJ and Embiid are much more likely to compliment each other.

[Myth]

Let me ask this. Let's say there is a star available and they are willing to trade him to the Sixers for a package consisting of Maxey, Thybulle and all of our 1sts.

Now for salary filler, they are fine taking either Green and Curry as you lay out or just taking McCollum instead. Wouldn't you rather trade McCollum over Green and Curry? I sure would. So either my question is flawed because the other team wouldn't except CJ over Green and Curry or they would and we'd still prefer them to take CJ. So what does that say about McCollum's value?

Outside of saving money, I don't know why you'd rather have Green/Curry over McCollum. If I were Phili, I would much rather have the on court production of CJ. But then, I do know you have been a notorious CJ hater, maybe to the point of being blinded by the positives he does bring.

Because they're better collectively? Curry is a better shooter than McCollum, Green is obviously a vastly better defender. Sure that's two players vs. one but the two combined make half of what McCollum makes.

They also take up 2 positions at the same time. This is why the idea of consolidating assets exists.

[PhillyNj]

Not necessarily no. Star power wins in the league especially when it involves spacing. I also think he ages really really well

Star power wins in the league when the player is actually a star. And if McCollum has such spacing star power then why has he never won anything? Or is your hope that Embiid is just vastly better than Dame and can carry McCollum to places Dame never could? Because I ain't buying that line of thought either.

CJ and Dame are pretty redundant. CJ and Embiid are much more likely to compliment each other.

I don’t believe this at all. Dame is twice the player CJ is.
CJ is greatly overrated by people in this forum. I flat out don’t want CJ. On this team, but I would absolutely love Dame.
If you think there redundant send Dame and keep CJ!

[Texas Chuck]

Let me ask this. Let's say there is a star available and they are willing to trade him to the Sixers for a package consisting of Maxey, Thybulle and all of our 1sts.

Now for salary filler, they are fine taking either Green and Curry as you lay out or just taking McCollum instead. Wouldn't you rather trade McCollum over Green and Curry? I sure would. So either my question is flawed because the other team wouldn't except CJ over Green and Curry or they would and we'd still prefer them to take CJ. So what does that say about McCollum's value?

Outside of saving money, I don't know why you'd rather have Green/Curry over McCollum. If I were Phili, I would much rather have the on court production of CJ. But then, I do know you have been a notorious CJ hater, maybe to the point of being blinded by the positives he does bring.

Because they're better collectively? Curry is a better shooter than McCollum, Green is obviously a vastly better defender. Sure that's two players vs. one but the two combined make half of what McCollum makes.

I think this is what gets lost too much in these conversations. If someone wants to argue that setting money aside having CJ on your roster is better than having Seth/Green on your roster, I could listen to that argument. Depending on how Green holds up defensively moving forward I think there is an argument to be made.

But we can't set aside contracts. Cavs fans can say until they are blue in the face that Love's $60M doesn't matter, but of course it does. KP on a max not giving anything close to max play is a major problem for Dallas, etc...

CJ being due $100M over the next 3 years is a huge part of why I place minimal value on him. I can get over his lack of defense, his relative lack of efficiency as a scorer, his inability to draw fouls, etc... He is a great shooter, he can create his own shot and that absolutely has value. But when you make $30M and you have those holes in your game, you just aren't that valuable an asset.

Meanwhile Seth Curry makes $8M and is the most accurate shooter in the league. Doesn't do a ton else, though he does a good job of exploiting aggressive closeouts and he competes hard defensively even as his size/relative lack of athleticism means he's never going to be a good defender. And every single second he is on the court, he is drawing lots of defensive attention because if you leave him, that's 3 points.

And Danny Green defends hard for half the game, isn't a consistent shooter any longer, but teams still fear him so he's still providing valuable spacing and he could care less about anything but winning. Doesn't need shots or touches and will take the toughest assignments night after night. And he doesn't make a lot either.

The money always matters.