Marc Stein: Toronto has expressed interest in Ben Simmons

[alpngso]

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TO is perfect place for the budding young socialite

[sidsid]

Pascal is better than Simmons. There's no way that's our offer.

Siakam is the better, proven playoff player, no doubt.

But a trade like this happens for other reasons. Like both Simmons and Siakam requesting trades. Or what the plan is for the team long term.

A trade for Simmons isn't for what he gives you now, but what you think he can be 3 years from now in his prime, next to a similar aged core. If the FO sees the upside as similar or higher than keeping Siakam, trading for that window would make sense.

If the trade could be done without moving our high value assets: Siakam, OG and future unprotected draft assets (i.e. FVV as the base), Ben Simmons would already be on this team right now.

The problem in this case is that Simmons is making max money with a skillset that clearly isn't worth max money and may not be worthy of the contract in 3 or 4 years. It's basically a gamble that the team can help him develop his shot and his confidence in his shot. It's also a gamble that Ben takes it seriously enough to put the work in to make it worth it.

What I saw from him last playoffs indicates he may not have the mentality to get there.

Yup, that's the stakes, and the reason I wouldn't trade Siakam for him (who has developed faster and who's talent needs rep more than full on skill development).

But it's also the reason why I'd easily do a trade for Fred and minimal assets. It's a gamble for a chance at a really high ceiling in exchange for a static, low playoff ceiling role player.

As for the money. Fred doesn't make max money, but he is still essentially taking up a max contract slot because of the soft cap. He would need to be traded to make FA space for a max player, or traded for that max player if he has a contact.

This is why Fred's contract is made for these ceiling gambles. Regardless, Ben's value is still too high for this to happen. He'd need an injury situation (like Dipo) for the value to fall low enough I think. If all stars don't have a bunch of question marks they wouldn't be in a conversation for a Fred trade. Comes with the territory.

[alivinglegend]

When have the Ujiri led Raptors ever acquired a player considered to be lazy? For a team that's so focused on culture and development, Simmons just doesn't fit.

[mademan]

When have the Ujiri led Raptors ever acquired a player considered to be lazy? For a team that's so focused on culture and development, Simmons just doesn't fit.

Simmons isnt lazy tho. He competes hard on defense, on the boards and he stays in great shape year round. Those arent the markers of laziness. His shooting problem is mental

[OakleyDokely]

Speak for yourself, the stats posted the past few pages corroborate my eye test for Simmons.

I've long thought he's one of the most overrated players in the league. More importantly, watching him in the playoffs has really exposed his limitations and how you can gameplan against a guard who can't shoot. If it's obvious to a simpleton like me (basically played through school/rec and coached kids), it's no wonder NBA coaching staffs and scouts have a field day against the Sixers.

I don't know how anyone that knows anything about Basketball can call a NBA player that is DPOY&triple-double threat "overrated": He is the only NBA player (outside of Giannis) with that combination.
The Sixers were first seed this season for a reason and up 20+ and 15+ in that Hawks series. Meaning they could have easily gone through. Easily . Ben is not the first superstar without a jumpshot.
Your eye test must look for offense while mine looks for both offense and defense equally.

It begins with the recognition that DPOY votes are skewed by popularity and, for some reason, offensive production. But please keep citing hypotheticals and your opinion in lieu of analysis

Yup, it tends to be a reputation thing.

Kawhi is a great defender when he wants to be, but he hasn't really been consistently great defensively since like 2017.

Like most other top offensive stars, he preserves himself on defense during the regular season other than for some key moments in a game. We saw it in Toronto firsthand. He could lock in and when he did he was great, but he floated a lot of other times and I don't blame him considering the offensive load he carried. But him making all defensive teams has a lot to do with reputation at this point.

There's no way anyone can convince me Simmons is more valuable than OG defensively. If OG was a former #1 pick, who played in a major market, he would have already made an all defensive team.

[Swag]

Rich Paul and Ujiri are talking in the back - Toronto would be a great fresh start for Bennie.

With Dragic, Boucher, Fred, Picks - the Raptors have options to put together a package. But they need to give up at least 1 decent asset of value.

But Morey has really overplayed his hand.

[Swag]

Another thing to consider about why they would want to include Pascal in a potential trade his because he's coming up on an extension soon and I don't think they want to pay him 35-45M per year (if he makes an all NBA team).

[MikeM]

I don't even really want Simmons but y'all trippin on his defence now.. come on. Dudes with the size, strength and quickness to make Kawhi look small and slow just don't exist.

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[mrdressup]

When have the Ujiri led Raptors ever acquired a player considered to be lazy? For a team that's so focused on culture and development, Simmons just doesn't fit.

Well, enters the equation of needing a top tier type talent and where do you get them. This is a team that will not tank. It's going to have to come from calculated dangerous risk taking in the acquiring of potential top level talent from the pool of those who are disgruntled where they are or those would come here in free agency. Talent-wise he could be that guy. Maturity is something that comes with age, and we have seen it with Kyle Lowry, another guy we rolled the dice on despite troubling warning signs. Would I give Siakam? No. I'd completely empty the first round pick cupboard to try and make a deal happen while keeping as many as the top guys as possible. We' re young enough and deep enough to trade away a lot of picks. If you want to roll the dice on the next 4 years with this young core then acquire a star and trade away all those corresponding draft picks. Masai is surely desperately trying to achieve this. Boucher, Dragic, 3 first round pics and potentially more 2rd round picks is fine with me. We'd not draft a Ben Simmons with those, or anything we could trade later for him with. What I would not do is include a top level talent with it. Ben Simmons probably needs a spot to be the man, and we need that kind off guy, Leadership will come from Fred and hopefully from Barnes.

[ATLTimekeeper]

Another thing to consider about why they would want to include Pascal in a potential trade his because he's coming up on an extension soon and I don't think they want to pay him 35-45M per year (if he makes an all NBA team).

Guys usually get extensions if it's cheap for the team or if it's a no brainer. That wouldn't be a concern for the Raptors right now considering Pascal's off year.

And in the context of Simmons, it's obvious there's more stability with Pascal. He was fined and suspended by the team and he still wants to be here. Simmons got criticized by his coach and won't show up to camp, and he's made it clear he wants to play in California... eventually. If his current contract isn't even being honoured, then I doubt the Raptors would be interested. I think Masai probably had a reasonable offer pre draft with Siakam, and Morey rejected it.

[everdiso]

I don't even really want Simmons but y'all trippin on his defence now.. come on. Dudes with the size, strength and quickness to make Kawhi look small and slow just don't exist.

Watch on YouTube

Kwai demolished Simmons head to Head in the playoffs.

Demolished him.

[Swag]

Another thing to consider about why they would want to include Pascal in a potential trade his because he's coming up on an extension soon and I don't think they want to pay him 35-45M per year (if he makes an all NBA team).

Guys usually get extensions if it's cheap for the team or if it's a no brainer. That wouldn't be a concern for the Raptors right now considering Pascal's off year.

And in the context of Simmons, it's obvious there's more stability with Pascal. He was fined and suspended by the team and he still wants to be here. Simmons got criticized by his coach and won't show up to camp, and he's made it clear he wants to play in California... eventually. If his current contract isn't even being honoured, then I doubt the Raptors would be interested. I think Masai probably had a reasonable offer pre draft with Siakam, and Morey rejected it.

Simmons didn't just sour on the team because he got criticized by the coach, its deeper than that. The 6ers have been publicly shopping him for 2 seasons now, no player would appreciate that. Obviously he caught feelings and I dont blame him.

As for Pascal, I believe he'll be up for an extension next summer and if he plays well, he could get the Super Max. I dont know about yall but I'm not interested in paying Pascal $45M per for the next 5 years. If management doesnt want to do that, than now is the time to move him - not next year.

[WuTang_CMB]

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[Harcore Fenton Mun]

A lot of it falls on the Sixers too, they're poorly run as a franchise. They don't set expectations well.

It's kind of a case of "the inmates run the asylum". He might do better with more structure.

[Raps1103]

Another thing to consider about why they would want to include Pascal in a potential trade his because he's coming up on an extension soon and I don't think they want to pay him 35-45M per year (if he makes an all NBA team).

Describe : SOON?

We might have different definitions of what “soon” means

[will]

If Masai makes this deal, he best be ripping off Morey here.

[ATLTimekeeper]

Simmons didn't just sour on the team because he got criticized by the coach, its deeper than that. The 6ers have been publicly shopping him for 2 seasons now, no player would appreciate that. Obviously he caught feelings and I dont blame him.

As for Pascal, I believe he'll be up for an extension next summer and if he plays well, he could get the Super Max. I dont know about yall but I'm not interested in paying Pascal $45M per for the next 5 years. If management doesnt want to do that, than now is the time to move him - not next year.

Masai traded Lowry once, and then in our title year told him to his face he was thinking of flipping him for Mike Conley. He came back. They tried to get Harden. Didn't do anything wrong, really.

If you think Pascal is going to make too much, what kind of leverage do you think they'll have with Simmons? Oh, and then there's two other Klutch reps sitting in our starting line-up. Masai's not a moron. One unmovable contract (if it came to that) is better than 3. It won't come to that. Pascal won't be getting the super max from Toronto, unless he elevates his game to a place where he's earned it.

[DreamTeam09]

Dragic
Boucher
Flynn
Yuta
Freddie G

Still don't make enough salary to match Ben and that's the most I'd give up for Ben right now

[pagal]

Please get BumVleet out of here Masai!!!

[sidsid]

More analytics for people that don't watch games. Just like a poster showing FVV's driving stats to falsely claim that he is a better driver than Simmons (when anybody that actually watches games know that he is nowhere near Ben in that regard)
Who are those bigs you are referring to? In the east, only his teammate Embiid and Sabonis are legit bigs. Is Giannis the big your analytics are referring to?
in the West, only Jokic .. Certainly not DPOY Gobert.
Who are those scoring bigs allegedly "torching" the best perimeter defender in the league on those switches?

Youre right, I dont watch games.



Im done here.

Watching the games combined with stats is hell of a lot more valuable than just watching the games because your eyes can deceive you and everyone has certain biases.

The discussion's lost the context, which is supposed to be a comparison of Fred vs. Ben. VVV's shown the advantages Ben has at certain positions vs. others, which is a crucial point brought up in the position-less thread (our 6'8 crew will still have natural advantages against certain types of players).

However, the comparison isn't an analytics one when it comes to Fred vs. Ben, it's simple physics.

The reason Bobby made that "we'd like to have a bunch of OGs/Siakams out there" wasn't because of how good they could be at a certain position. It's how they can't be exploited defensively, while potentially leveraging advantages offensively everywhere. And those advantages stack and provide flexibility that isn't there if you have a weak link.

Who's the better defender against Kawhi, Durant, LeBron, AD, Embiid: Ben or FVV? Of course it's a silly question, but that's the point. Ben may not be optimal in all situations, but it doesn't require a complete collapse of your defense if he's switched on him.

But what about Curry? The answer here is 'switching' (or OG, honestly) if you have your wall of OG, Barnes, Siakam, Ben and another guy. Blowing up all the off ball action. Again, the answer is physics, not analytics.