New direction Bulls. do you bullieve? (August thread : have you changed your mind?)

[Ryoga Hibiki]

I believe he is referring to the 2 FRP they traded which will likely be between 10-20. They players weren’t the future they would get but the draft assets to make another trade. Vuc is almost certainly better than what those picks would be but it does hamper future trades too. At best it is a wash imho. Vuc is also still on a good contract and is still tradable.

one already was the 8th pick

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Yeah I was actually considering the DDR pick and forgot about Franz Wagner. That 8th pick kind of proves the point though. That pick wouldn't have made Zach leap for joy I am pretty sure. Nothing against Wagner but I doubt anyone thinks he is a franchise changing player.

probably not, but I am not sure LaVine is good enough to have all your strategy built around making him happy

[DroseReturnChi]

probably not, but I am not sure LaVine is good enough to have all your strategy built around making him happy

well im 100% sure hes going to leave for LA if lebron orders him to is he going to really choose AK over him?
even among klutch clients there isnt a more suitable guy more than lavine to be a laker i can think of. this is a huge red flag they should have gave up contending and sign him to max deal first and then do whatever they want whether its trading his ass or making him number 1. everything is now uncertain since he wants his respect and so far he hasnt gotten one.

with klutch, he doesnt have to be forced to stay. rich paul could create a 2nd destination to lakers whether its golden state or clippers so lebron can force them to join lakers whenever he wants to and keep a close eye supervising them. just look at simmons and maxey despite multi yr deals they already outta there.

[ForeverTFC]

I think they're a solid playoff team. Are they championship caliber? No. But they don't need to be. They need to set a good culture, showcase prolonged winning, keep their contracts movable, and most importantly retain Lavine. Chicago should be the the type of Franchise that is a FA/trade destination so I understand this direction for them.

[ConSarnit]

one already was the 8th pick

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Yeah I was actually considering the DDR pick and forgot about Franz Wagner. That 8th pick kind of proves the point though. That pick wouldn't have made Zach leap for joy I am pretty sure. Nothing against Wagner but I doubt anyone thinks he is a franchise changing player.

probably not, but I am not sure LaVine is good enough to have all your strategy built around making him happy

This what I don't get either. "We have to compete or Lavine will walk"

Cool, I guess if he walks you'll go from your current position of not making the playoffs to, um, still not making the playoffs?

[Michael Jackson]

Yeah I was actually considering the DDR pick and forgot about Franz Wagner. That 8th pick kind of proves the point though. That pick wouldn't have made Zach leap for joy I am pretty sure. Nothing against Wagner but I doubt anyone thinks he is a franchise changing player.

probably not, but I am not sure LaVine is good enough to have all your strategy built around making him happy

This what I don't get either. "We have to compete or Lavine will walk"

Cool, I guess if he walks you'll go from your current position of not making the playoffs to, um, still not making the playoffs?

No one is putting LaVine as a top 10 player but he is the best player the Bulls can get. To hope to add another guy you have to have at the minimum a guy of LaVine’s talent around. You need at least one other guy who looks like a star player. The option is do what they did or max out Lauri Markkenan and draft Franz Wagner. Neither option is a no brainer but one is clearly more palatable than the other.

[Michael Jackson]

I think they're a solid playoff team. Are they championship caliber? No. But they don't need to be. They need to set a good culture, showcase prolonged winning, keep their contracts movable, and most importantly retain Lavine. Chicago should be the the type of Franchise that is a FA/trade destination so I understand this direction for them.

That appears to be what AK is doing. Say they had a team like this current team when AD was forcing a trade from NO, Chicago wasn’t in his list, but with this current squad they would at least make the list. Not saying they would land the trade but they weren’t even in discussions in the past.

[Pointgod]

I think they're a solid playoff team. Are they championship caliber? No. But they don't need to be. They need to set a good culture, showcase prolonged winning, keep their contracts movable, and most importantly retain Lavine. Chicago should be the the type of Franchise that is a FA/trade destination so I understand this direction for them.

That appears to be what AK is doing. Say they had a team like this current team when AD was forcing a trade from NO, Chicago wasn’t in his list, but with this current squad they would at least make the list. Not saying they would land the trade but they weren’t even in discussions in the past.

This guy gets it.

[Mk0]

I think they're a solid playoff team. Are they championship caliber? No. But they don't need to be. They need to set a good culture, showcase prolonged winning, keep their contracts movable, and most importantly retain Lavine. Chicago should be the the type of Franchise that is a FA/trade destination so I understand this direction for them.

This. 100%

AKME completely removed the outdated culture and the insane amount of nepotism and 'yes men'. Donovan threw everything against the wall for half a year to find out who was worth a damn and they gutted the roster.

No one has wanted to go to Chicago since Kobe. We had to overpay for an old Pau, old Wade, old Rondo and Carlos Boozer at the end of his prime. This was all about cleaning house and making the franchise appealing.

As far as the talent we gave up?

*WCJ should turn out to be a solid 7th pick and a good starter in this league, but I am not exactly going to miss him.

*Lauri Markkanen should be a decent stretch big. We saw some amazing stretches from him, and maybe the trade to Cleveland helps him get some aggression.. but that wasn't happening in Chicago. Wish him the best, but I am not going to miss him.

*I liked Gafford and thought he was great as an energy big off the bench, but I don't see him becoming more than that. He could have fit really well on this current roster.

*The picks? Don't really fit our timeline and had we won the lotto we would have kept the #8 we just gave Orlando.

*I actually forgot about Otto Porter Junior. He looked great when we traded for him and then his wheels almost immediately fell off. Then he was partying during lockdown. There is a reason he went to the Dubs as a reclamation project. I think he will be a good fit.

*Thad deserves to go to a contender. I expect the Spurs to move him by the deadline. He has value.

Were any of these guys worth investing any more time into? Not in Chicago. Going into the trade deadline last year our best line ups were with Garrett Temple, Sato and Thad with LaVine. Hell, we may have even moved Coby if he didn't hurt his shoulder during the offseason.

AKME were handed a complete sh%# show, top to bottom. I think they have done a pretty damn good job turning it around. Hell they get points for even trying.. GarPax were THAT bad.

[Dominator83]

I think they're a solid playoff team. Are they championship caliber? No. But they don't need to be. They need to set a good culture, showcase prolonged winning, keep their contracts movable, and most importantly retain Lavine. Chicago should be the the type of Franchise that is a FA/trade destination so I understand this direction for them.

That appears to be what AK is doing. Say they had a team like this current team when AD was forcing a trade from NO, Chicago wasn’t in his list, but with this current squad they would at least make the list. Not saying they would land the trade but they weren’t even in discussions in the past.

Exactly. We had reached the point where we weren't even getting meetings with the top FAs anymore. That needs to change.

[Knightfall]

Bulls beat bet is to hope that Philly can hold out till Dec and try to make a trade for Simmons centered around Ball, William's, cap space and picks. Because that three something they have is not impressing no M one. As a Bulls fan, I'm disgusted by the last 5 years of this team's moves, mismanagement and lack of player development.

[ForeverTFC]

I think they're a solid playoff team. Are they championship caliber? No. But they don't need to be. They need to set a good culture, showcase prolonged winning, keep their contracts movable, and most importantly retain Lavine. Chicago should be the the type of Franchise that is a FA/trade destination so I understand this direction for them.

This. 100%

AKME completely removed the outdated culture and the insane amount of nepotism and 'yes men'. Donovan threw everything against the wall for half a year to find out who was worth a damn and they gutted the roster.

No one has wanted to go to Chicago since Kobe. We had to overpay for an old Pau, old Wade, old Rondo and Carlos Boozer at the end of his prime. This was all about cleaning house and making the franchise appealing.

As far as the talent we gave up?

*WCJ should turn out to be a solid 7th pick and a good starter in this league, but I am not exactly going to miss him.

*Lauri Markkanen should be a decent stretch big. We saw some amazing stretches from him, and maybe the trade to Cleveland helps him get some aggression.. but that wasn't happening in Chicago. Wish him the best, but I am not going to miss him.

*I liked Gafford and thought he was great as an energy big off the bench, but I don't see him becoming more than that. He could have fit really well on this current roster.

*The picks? Don't really fit our timeline and had we won the lotto we would have kept the #8 we just gave Orlando.

*I actually forgot about Otto Porter Junior. He looked great when we traded for him and then his wheels almost immediately fell off. Then he was partying during lockdown. There is a reason he went to the Dubs as a reclamation project. I think he will be a good fit.

*Thad deserves to go to a contender. I expect the Spurs to move him by the deadline. He has value.

Were any of these guys worth investing any more time into? Not in Chicago. Going into the trade deadline last year our best line ups were with Garrett Temple, Sato and Thad with LaVine. Hell, we may have even moved Coby if he didn't hurt his shoulder during the offseason.

AKME were handed a complete sh%# show, top to bottom. I think they have done a pretty damn good job turning it around. Hell they get points for even trying.. GarPax were THAT bad.

To be fair, I hated the Vuc trade, thought it was a massive overpay and I just don't think Cs that can't anchor a defense are worth much (though I probably have a lower opinion of Vucevic than the average fan). But, that trade happened and so what they've done since have been the right moves in my view considering the team and assets they had after the trade.

[tamaraw08]

They go from acquiring so many ex Duke players before like Deng, Boozer etc to now getting ex PAC-12 players- 4 starters from USC AND UCLA.
For me, Lonzo holds the key. Will he stay healthy? Can he truly hit those open 3's? If not, they are still going to be ok but not advancing to the 2nd round. The Caruso pick up is huge IMO, esp if he doesn't get hurt often.
Billy Donovan should feel a lot of pressure to win now and handling Lavine would be delicate bec he's so used to getting 20 attempts before and he had trouble focusing on defense.
Can he maximize the abilities of Vucevic and DeRozan?
How will they handle critical final 2 minutes of each game?

[tamaraw08]

They solved the initiator problem when they signed Lonzo (which again was a great move). It will be nice to have a guy that can get to the line and score in the mid range, but it just won't justify the losses on defense/spacing/offensive flow. LaVine was incredibly efficient last year (significantly more than DD) and part of the reason for that was having the keys to the offense/the luxury of finding his rhythm early and often. That changes with the addition of a high usage player like DeRozan.

DD's on/off has been negative in 11 of 12 seasons and all 6 of his playoff appearances. At a certain point I think we gotta accept the pattern for what it is- an indication that he's not a very impactful player. Trading Thad and a 1st for the right to overpay added insult to injury imo.

I see people still have this false believe that Lonzo is great initiator, which was on his scouting report when he was a rookie, but honestly he really isnt. He is good in transition, but in half court he is barely a point guard at all, he is surprisingly good off ball player. Bulls could start Demar of the bench, but anyhow, I imagine Demar will probably be their main ''point guard''/''point forward'' in the half court offense, he is easily their best playmaker in that setting. Those 3 perimeter players really aren't the problem in my opinion, I am more concerned with lack of rim protection and scarce big men rotation.

You can really tell who watches games and who doesn’t. Anyone that believes Lonzo is a lead guard or initiator has not watched him play over the past 4 years. His best role is as a ball mover in the half court and the guy that can rebound and lead the fast break. I think you nailed the Bulls offense. Let Derozan initiate in the half court. Lavine, Lonzo, Vucevic and Williams can all play off of him.

You nailed it about Lonzo. They could be very exciting running the break. It's imperative that Donovan draws the right half court sets and maximize their talent.

[ConSarnit]

I don't know if I buy that you can "build a culture" and change your fortunes. Look at every team that has "changed their culture" in the past few years:

Warriors: drafted Steph (an all-time great), changed ownership
Clippers: changed ownership from possibly the worst owner of all-time, drafted Blake Griffin (3rd MVP runner up)
Nets: moved to NYC, changed ownership

Want to change your culture? Sell your team to someone better, draft an MVP level player or move to NYC or LA. That's why this appeasing Lavine idea is never going to work. CHI has a theoretically desirable market (but probably not top 5) but not much else. I expect the Bulls will be in about the same place 3-4 years from now.

[meekrab]

Bulls beat bet is to hope that Philly can hold out till Dec and try to make a trade for Simmons centered around Ball, William's, cap space and picks. Because that three something they have is not impressing no M one. As a Bulls fan, I'm disgusted by the last 5 years of this team's moves, mismanagement and lack of player development.

As a Bulls fan, I'm taking Lonzo and Patrick and draft picks 100% of the time over whiny diva Call of Duty player Simmons.

[ForeverTFC]

I don't know if I buy that you can "build a culture" and change your fortunes. Look at every team that has "changed their culture" in the past few years:

Warriors: drafted Steph (an all-time great), changed ownership
Clippers: changed ownership from possibly the worst owner of all-time, drafted Blake Griffin (3rd MVP runner up)
Nets: moved to NYC, changed ownership

Want to change your culture? Sell your team to someone better, draft an MVP level player or move to NYC or LA. That's why this appeasing Lavine idea is never going to work. CHI has a theoretically desirable market (but probably not top 5) but not much else. I expect the Bulls will be in about the same place 3-4 years from now.

Our own Raptors changed the culture with an executive hiring. Bulls fans think they are doing the same.

[ConSarnit]

I don't know if I buy that you can "build a culture" and change your fortunes. Look at every team that has "changed their culture" in the past few years:

Warriors: drafted Steph (an all-time great), changed ownership
Clippers: changed ownership from possibly the worst owner of all-time, drafted Blake Griffin (3rd MVP runner up)
Nets: moved to NYC, changed ownership

Want to change your culture? Sell your team to someone better, draft an MVP level player or move to NYC or LA. That's why this appeasing Lavine idea is never going to work. CHI has a theoretically desirable market (but probably not top 5) but not much else. I expect the Bulls will be in about the same place 3-4 years from now.

Our own Raptors changed the culture with an executive hiring. Bulls fans think they are doing the same.

Yeah, I get the model they are after. We might have the strongest culture in the league but it still didn’t stop Kawhi from walking and it didn’t get us a Giannis sit down in free agency. Our strength is drafting and player development.

Let’s just say I don’t have a ton of confidence in the Bull’s pursuit of “culture”. The Raptors actively got rid of guys like Demar and Vuc (Jonas). The Bulls gave up assets (overpaid) to get almost those exact same guys. That’s not confidence inspiring.

[meekrab]

I don't know if I buy that you can "build a culture" and change your fortunes. Look at every team that has "changed their culture" in the past few years:

Warriors: drafted Steph (an all-time great), changed ownership
Clippers: changed ownership from possibly the worst owner of all-time, drafted Blake Griffin (3rd MVP runner up)
Nets: moved to NYC, changed ownership

Want to change your culture? Sell your team to someone better, draft an MVP level player or move to NYC or LA. That's why this appeasing Lavine idea is never going to work. CHI has a theoretically desirable market (but probably not top 5) but not much else. I expect the Bulls will be in about the same place 3-4 years from now.

Our own Raptors changed the culture with an executive hiring. Bulls fans think they are doing the same.

It's also important to realize Jerry Reinsdorf handed the Bulls decision making authority over to his son, who was the one who made the call to bring in new management, so in a sense they did change ownership even if there wasn't a financial transaction.

[ConSarnit]

I don't know if I buy that you can "build a culture" and change your fortunes. Look at every team that has "changed their culture" in the past few years:

Warriors: drafted Steph (an all-time great), changed ownership
Clippers: changed ownership from possibly the worst owner of all-time, drafted Blake Griffin (3rd MVP runner up)
Nets: moved to NYC, changed ownership

Want to change your culture? Sell your team to someone better, draft an MVP level player or move to NYC or LA. That's why this appeasing Lavine idea is never going to work. CHI has a theoretically desirable market (but probably not top 5) but not much else. I expect the Bulls will be in about the same place 3-4 years from now.

Our own Raptors changed the culture with an executive hiring. Bulls fans think they are doing the same.

It's also important to realize Jerry Reinsdorf handed the Bulls decision making authority over to his son, who was the one who made the call to bring in new management, so in a sense they did change ownership even if there wasn't a financial transaction.

Surely that will work out, just like many great sons before:

James Dolan
Jim Buss
Mark Davis

I joke, but son's of a team owners being handed the team hasn't always worked out amazingly well. I just can't really remember one of these low-seed playoff or bust mandate teams ever really turning around a franchise's fortunes. It's not the path I would choose.

[Knightfall]

Bulls beat bet is to hope that Philly can hold out till Dec and try to make a trade for Simmons centered around Ball, William's, cap space and picks. Because that three something they have is not impressing no M one. As a Bulls fan, I'm disgusted by the last 5 years of this team's moves, mismanagement and lack of player development.

As a Bulls fan, I'm taking Lonzo and Patrick and draft picks 100% of the time over whiny diva Call of Duty player Simmons.

And support for that crap is why Reinsdorf knows he can puts a crappy product on the floor and people would go to Bulls games. Which he loves because he gets to take that money and find the White Sox. Which are his baby.