Stratmaster wrote:GoBlue72391 wrote:holv03 wrote:Why are we discussing DJJ at the 4? Let's stop this non sense. Bulls are looking for a true big not another wing to fill out the pf position.
DJJ
has played PF and C in recent seasons and he
will play PF and C for us. You might not like it, but it's going to happen, so you'll have to accept it eventually.
This is the new normal. This isn't 2010 anymore. Traditional height/weight requirements for positions are an antiquated thing of the past and are no longer relevant in today's game. There's a reason this era is so commonly referred to as "positionless basketball." As the years go by, the game grows and evolves.
I personally cannot understand how anyone who watches basketball on a regular basis, and has done so for the past 3+ years, can have such a difficult time grasping this. What do they think they're watching? The majority of the time teams are playing small-ball with 1 PG, 3 wings and 1 big. Most modern PFs are 6'6"-6'8" SFs playing out of position. How can anyone who watches NBA basketball on a regular basis not be aware of this??? Are they not actually watching games???
Sorry for the rant. That wasn't directed at you personally, I've just seen a surprising amount of purported NBA fans who are stuck in this outdated mindset and balk at the idea of anyone under 6'9" playing PF and bizarrely try to deny that it happens by providing things like Basketball-Reference's positional estimates as "proof" that they play SG/SF rather than PF/C.
Look at P.J. Tucker's positional estimates on B-R. Everyone and their mother knows he's a PF/C, yet B-R says he's a SF/PF/SG/C in that order...
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/tuckepj01.htmlThe amount of pushback and outright denial of this is just very, very confusing to me.
Except, after calling everyone else out, you are wrong.
The average PF height in the NBA has dropped exactly 1 inch in the last 10 years and is currently 6'8.2", with a 7' wing span. That drop has been gradual, by about 1/10" per season, and it is more due to the coming and going of 6'10" plus Lauri Markkanen types than any change in style.
I am not sure when they started using measurements without shoes but that may have even factored into that drop.
The average weight has dropped about 10 pounds in that time but still hovers around 230.
I agree that teams are more willing to play small ball lineups in limited minutes. But the idea that everyone is running out there with traditional wings playing PF as part of their core approach just isn't backed up.
Even if it was, as soon as it becomes too prevalent a couple smart teams will roll out a couple monster bigs and take advantage. Everything is cyclical and the smart management and coaches don't follow, they adjust.
Sent from my SM-G965U using
RealGM mobile app
What's your source for that? If the average PF height really is 6'8" then wouldn't that just confirm what I said? I said most modern PFs are 6'6"-6'8" SFs playing out of position. It seems like that average is the result of a number of PFs under 6'8" dragging the average down offset by a number of 6'10"+ PFs boosting the average back up to an overall average of 6'8".
It would largely depend on what position players are considered when coming up with that calculation. Questions like was Tatum, Giannis, LeBron, McDermott, DeRozan, Crowder, Tucker, etc. counted as a PF or SF? It's hard to come up with an average height considering how positions are less defined nowadays and the line is often blurred between SF and PF. To me, it's less about strictly heights and more about whether a player is a wing or a big, but on the whole the wings will be shorter than the bigs. Guys like Tatum and Kyle Anderson are 6'9" so they're technically above the average 6'8" height for a PF you claim, but they're clearly wings and not bigs. Hell, KD is over 7'0" but I don't think many people would consider him a big.
It's not just limited minutes of small ball around the league; I went and looked at every team's most-used starting lineup and most used lineup period (meaning not necessarily starting lineup, just the 5 man unit that played the most minutes together) from last season and this is what I came up with:
Starting lineups: 15/30 (50%) teams started 1 PG, 3 wings and 1 big
Most used lineups overall: 14/30 (47%) teams used 1 PG, 3 wings and 1 big
When looking through the lineups I was less focused on height and more focused on whether the player is a wing or a big. Some of it is a judgement call, like Dray is only 6'6" but he's clearly a big because he does big man duties, so I counted him as a big. On the other hand, P.J. is Tucker is 6'5" and plays PF/C but to me he's more of a wing than an actual big because he spends most of his time spotting up in the corner and defending the perimeter.
So it's pretty clear that small ball/1 PG, 3 wings and 1 big lineups isn't just some limited/situational thing, it's roughly half of the entire league. This is a regular, common thing nowadays. I was offbase for claiming "
most modern PFs are 6'6"-68" SFs playing out of position" when I should have said "half." That was an exaggeration on my part, but my overall point still stands.
