Ben Simmons Containment Thread Take 3

[kuclas]

No from Sacramento. Haliburton is not on the table.

The thing is, I don't think the Kings want Simmons that badly - he'd be an odd fit on the Kings and the GM's crushes are guys who can shoot.

Would the Kings be happy to have Simmons for pennies on the dollar? Sure. But they're not going all out on a mission of Simmons-or-bust. Which is a long winded way of saying I highly doubt he will end up in Sacramento.

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simmons is a better fit than either hali/fox because he fixes kings biggest weakness which is defense. thats why im saying they should not be cheap and trade dollar for a dollar. the chances of hali/fox/mitchell working out in 5 yrs is close to 0 a good gm would be prepared for the inevitable because otherwise they might be the ones similar to simmons/embiid issue.

i said yrs ago sixers have to trade embiid for simmons to be a all nba player and this is what happens if they dont listen and only care abt talent. fit does matter in the end especially if you want to win a title. nba is all about usage i knew simmons would be marginalized to death after joel was going for that mvp. simmons fit only with a few team with winners like golden state because steph/klay are the few stars that likes to play better off ball.

Moving Hield and Bagley will automatically fix the Kings' defense. If you want to improve their defense even more, there are more economical ways to go about it than to pay a premium for Simmons. Defensive players traditionally do not commands the price that Morey is asking for. It's offense that cost a premium, and Morey is pricing Simmons on the level of an offensive jaggernaut. If the Kings (or any team) pay Morey's price for Simmons based on defense, then right away they've already lost the trade.

Unless the player is a C, he needs to be able to shoot in order to play for the Kings. They already have two ball handlers (potentially three with Davion playing alongside Fox and Haliburton), so a ballhandler is the last thing they need more of. Simmons is not a good fit on the Kings. You can argue he's so talented that it doesn't matter, but I'd argue that he's so unique that the fit matters for him more than many star level players. The Kings need a wing who can shoot. Simmons is not that guy. There is no reason to force a round peg into a square hole.

I don't know what you mean by Hali/Fox/Mitchell working out in 5 years. No one on the Kings is expecting Hali/Fox/Mitchell to be the big three. Haliburton should at best be the #3 guy and preferably the #4. Mitchell is clue guy. They are hunting for one or two players who can carry the offensive load for Fox and also defend at a high level. Maybe they find that guy, maybe the don't. The last they should do is to settle for someone who only somewhat fill that role and paying a premium for it.

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Look at the simmons game vs Utah last season. That’s what a Simmons lead offense looks like. Look at the 7-3 stretch they went without Embiid. Look at game 5 wizards playoff.

Simmons had a mental break vs hawks. If got worst and worst.

Simmons is an Uber train in transition which is the pace Sacramento likes to play. He’s just not this defensive specialist. You can score in the nba even without a jump shot especially with simmons 6 foot 10 height athletic ability speed and ball handling and vision.

People like to say he’s rondo. Well. Yeah. He’s Rondo but faster and bigger than rondo was ever in his prime. And that’s darn good. Considering rondo was considered an elite point guard despite his flaws.

I have said it over and over again. Put Simmons on teams that don’t play defense. Even without a jump
Shot. He would average 25/8/8 and people would marvel at his “stats”. Guys like fox or sexton who put up “stats” on bad teams taking 19/20 shots.

What happens when they play in playoffs?

[rzzzzz]

Hield, haliburton and Bagley to Philly

Sac won’t do it. Which is a mistake. They should choose their long term pg sooner than later, and would benefit from a serious jolt of defense. A balanced roster with enough talent to finally at least think about building a contender.

Sixers would have to deal with the Bagley problem, and figure out Hield, in order to get a shot at developing a nice looking pg prospect. Not the instant top echelon contender that Dame joining Embiid would make them, but decent consolation.

[beb0p]

simmons is a better fit than either hali/fox because he fixes kings biggest weakness which is defense. thats why im saying they should not be cheap and trade dollar for a dollar. the chances of hali/fox/mitchell working out in 5 yrs is close to 0 a good gm would be prepared for the inevitable because otherwise they might be the ones similar to simmons/embiid issue.

i said yrs ago sixers have to trade embiid for simmons to be a all nba player and this is what happens if they dont listen and only care abt talent. fit does matter in the end especially if you want to win a title. nba is all about usage i knew simmons would be marginalized to death after joel was going for that mvp. simmons fit only with a few team with winners like golden state because steph/klay are the few stars that likes to play better off ball.

Moving Hield and Bagley will automatically fix the Kings' defense. If you want to improve their defense even more, there are more economical ways to go about it than to pay a premium for Simmons. Defensive players traditionally do not commands the price that Morey is asking for. It's offense that cost a premium, and Morey is pricing Simmons on the level of an offensive jaggernaut. If the Kings (or any team) pay Morey's price for Simmons based on defense, then right away they've already lost the trade.

Unless the player is a C, he needs to be able to shoot in order to play for the Kings. They already have two ball handlers (potentially three with Davion playing alongside Fox and Haliburton), so a ballhandler is the last thing they need more of. Simmons is not a good fit on the Kings. You can argue he's so talented that it doesn't matter, but I'd argue that he's so unique that the fit matters for him more than many star level players. The Kings need a wing who can shoot. Simmons is not that guy. There is no reason to force a round peg into a square hole.

I don't know what you mean by Hali/Fox/Mitchell working out in 5 years. No one on the Kings is expecting Hali/Fox/Mitchell to be the big three. Haliburton should at best be the #3 guy and preferably the #4. Mitchell is clue guy. They are hunting for one or two players who can carry the offensive load for Fox and also defend at a high level. Maybe they find that guy, maybe the don't. The last they should do is to settle for someone who only somewhat fill that role and paying a premium for it.

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Look at the simmons game vs Utah last season. That’s what a Simmons lead offense looks like. Look at the 7-3 stretch they went without Embiid. Look at game 5 wizards playoff.

Simmons had a mental break vs hawks. If got worst and worst.

Simmons is an Uber train in transition which is the pace Sacramento likes to play. He’s just not this defensive specialist. You can score in the nba even without a jump shot especially with simmons 6 foot 10 height athletic ability speed and ball handling and vision.

People like to say he’s rondo. Well. Yeah. He’s Rondo but faster and bigger than rondo was ever in his prime. And that’s darn good. Considering rondo was considered an elite point guard despite his flaws.

I have said it over and over again. Put Simmons on teams that don’t play defense. Even without a jump
Shot. He would average 25/8/8 and people would marvel at his “stats”. Guys like fox or sexton who put up “stats” on bad teams taking 19/20 shots.

What happens when they play in playoffs?

The Kings already have a player who does what you describe Simmons can do for the them. Also, I'd avoid saying "What happens when they play in the playoffs" when you're trying to hype Simmons. We all saw what happened, it is historically unpleasant.

The fact that you think Fox is putting up stats only because he took a lot of shots show me you know next to nothing about the Kings or Fox. If you had said the same about Hield, I'd have agreed completely; but to say that about Fox is, this may seem harsh but it's true, ridiculously uninformed. This makes me question the rest of your take.

Fox has proven he can take over a game offensively. Sometimes good players do find themselves in lottery teams, you know. Also, the Kings is not a bad team, they're a mediore slightly below average team. I wish they are a bad team then they would get high lottery picks.

Bottom line is that I don't think Simmons is the difference between the Kings being a mediore team and being a good team. Doesn't mean he's not a good player, doesn't mean he won't be a really good fit on another team. I just don't see trading Fox or Hali for Simmons move the needle for the Kings.

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[NYG]

Simmons and Reed to Minnesota
Ross, Beverly, McDaniels and T'Wolves picks + swaps to Philly
Prince to Orlando

Philly gets below the luxury tax and lands some vets until a bigger follow up deal

[Killboard]

Wonder who is the best guard/wing close to his prime that 2 unprotected first and 2 swaps could get from a rebuilding team.

Wolves send those picks there and Prince+Reid (Okogie or Layman can also be included if needed to match salaries).
Philly gets that guy + Beasley or Beverley.
Wolves get Simmons.

What team and player could that be? Jerami Grant fits that bill, but not worth that many picks probably. Maybe split the picks where Philly gets some and a win-now player, and the other team (DET?) gets some picks.

That'sa good one. Not an initiator but can score, shoot and defend. Harris-Grant-Beasley-Curry with Maxey and Thybull coming of the bench is a very good mix of shooting and defense around Embiid in which will be a post centric offense anyway.

And yeah, the picks are interchangeable. Wolves could send some more. I also though about Dejounte Murray but he is also Clutch and the Spurs are in a wierd spot.

[kuclas]

Simmons and Reed to Minnesota
Ross, Beverly, McDaniels and T'Wolves picks + swaps to Philly
Prince to Orlando

Philly gets below the luxury tax and lands some vets until a bigger follow up deal

Beverly is no longer a nba starting pg. clearly on the decline. Sixers already had the corpse formerly known as George hill


Beverly is best at 10-15 minutes a game off the bench.

[Killboard]

Wonder who is the best guard/wing close to his prime that 2 unprotected first and 2 swaps could get from a rebuilding team.

Wolves send those picks there and Prince+Reid (Okogie or Layman can also be included if needed to match salaries).
Philly gets that guy + Beasley or Beverley.
Wolves get Simmons.

dude literally every single team has 2 unprotected picks. if you think morey is going to be ecstatic to think wolves post simmons is going to be a bottom 5 team, your just wrong. any team with simmons is a top 20 pick potentially which is why he needs multiple unprotected in the distant future to look like they are gold like boston/gs foolishly believed.

The picks should not care to Morey if he is going to get a mature player from a third team anyway. And the 3rd team should be recieving Reid (who is pretty good by himself) and expirings, which could swap again to get more picks in future deals if they decide to recieve salary.

Many teams have two picks, that does not mean all of them are willing to trade them for Simmons, or have the right contracts to match with both, a third team and Philly without include more. Sure it still not an upgrade over Simmons for Philly. But know what? Nothing will be. Nobody is trading a flawless player for him. Morey could wait and see how Simmons behaves, which I think is likely. Don't think is going to be any better for him though.

[Sportfan73]

I honestly just don’t think Morey is going to play it the total pick route. There will be one guy who’s the centerpiece of the deal. Doesn’t mean they have to equal Ben talent or value wise, but with Embiid being 27, Doc in the fold, and the ownership they have, I think at least a guy like Sexton is coming back in a deal

[Killboard]

Hield, haliburton and Bagley to Philly

I think right now kings aren’t even offering haliburton.

It's Hield+Hali+Bagley percieved as more value than Beasley+McDaniels+Reid?

[Sportfan73]

Read on Twitter

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Just find a running mate for Maxey and let’s go. I love Haliburton or Brogdon as back court partners, but CJ could do it too.

[patman66]

Hield, haliburton and Bagley to Philly

Sac won’t do it. Which is a mistake. They should choose their long term pg sooner than later, and would benefit from a serious jolt of defense. A balanced roster with enough talent to finally at least think about building a contender.

Sixers would have to deal with the Bagley problem, and figure out Hield, in order to get a shot at developing a nice looking pg prospect. Not the instant top echelon contender that Dame joining Embiid would make them, but decent consolation.

What bagley problem? He is an expiring. His father is not going to shoot themselves in the foot with the kid going to a contender in a year to max his value. And what is to figure out about Hield? He is what he is, an outstanding 3 point shooter who can create his own shot on a decreasing contract that plays so-so defense.

Oh, Dame well what would that offer be? Simmons and a boat load. If I was portland. Simmons, Maxey, Bassey and 3 #1s. Your trading a player that is hated for a player that is loved. Both Emblid and rivers should be reprimanded for their tanking of simmons value.

[babyjax13]

I wonder if Washington could jump into all of this.

Washington trades: Deni Avdija, Rui Hachimura, Daniel Gafford, Kentavious Caldwell Pope, Kyle Kuzma, picks
Washington receives: Ben Simmons
Get a true star player who matches well with Beal.

Philadelphia trades: Ben Simmons
Philadelphia receives: Derrick White, Kentavious Caldwell Pope, Lonnie Walker, Daniel Gafford, picks
Get a bunch of depth + a really underrated player in White and picks (don't know what these need to be to fill the gap).

San Antonio trades: Derrick White, Lonnie Walker
San Antonio receives: Deni Avdija, Rui Hachimura, Kyle Kuzma
Move White to clear a bit of the backcourt logjam and get some young frontcourt players.

Good grief. Sixers need a secondary iso scorer ball handler at end of the game.

Not a bunch of role players. White can’t shoot either. Embiid is a better mid range and 3 point shooter than white. If that tells you something.

Maxey and or Milton can step up and play bigger role and not even have to trade for white.

35% from 3 on 7 attempts per game sounds like someone who can shoot at least passably? White is going to surprise people.

[JRoy]

Hield, haliburton and Bagley to Philly

I think right now kings aren’t even offering haliburton.

It's Hield+Hali+Bagley percieved as more value than Beasley+McDaniels+Reid?

Yes, and it’s not close.

[Blazer50]

CJ McCollum is still a great option as a trade candidate for Simmons. I am sure he would thrive in a featured role vs supporting Damian. Oddly, the move would not only answer the defensive issues the Blazers have - but with Powell moving to the starting SG - and Ben becoming a Point SF and PG, it would open up minutes for Nassir Little and Anfernee Simons to develop - even with Covington and Nance Jr sharing time between SF/PF and Center. It would be a great challenge to see how Chauncey would handle this rotation

[HotelVitale]

CJ McCollum is still a great option as a trade candidate for Simmons. I am sure he would thrive in a featured role vs supporting Damian. Oddly, the move would not only answer the defensive issues the Blazers have - but with Powell moving to the starting SG - and Ben becoming a Point SF and PG, it would open up minutes for Nassir Little and Anfernee Simons to develop - even with Covington and Nance Jr sharing time between SF/PF and Center. It would be a great challenge to see how Chauncey would handle this rotation

I basically agree but I keep wondering if both teams remain uninterested for secondary, non-bball reasons. Sixers probably don’t like that CJ is 30 in a few weeks and probably only has 2-3 more peak seasons (Simmons just turned 25), and Blazers probably don’t like that Simmons is a mysterious/mercurial personality at a time when they can’t afford any slip ups (lest Dame gets annoyed/offended). So both orgs have aims/directions that might be taking them away from what seems like a great swap for on court needs and roster balance.

[JRoy]

CJ McCollum is still a great option as a trade candidate for Simmons. I am sure he would thrive in a featured role vs supporting Damian. Oddly, the move would not only answer the defensive issues the Blazers have - but with Powell moving to the starting SG - and Ben becoming a Point SF and PG, it would open up minutes for Nassir Little and Anfernee Simons to develop - even with Covington and Nance Jr sharing time between SF/PF and Center. It would be a great challenge to see how Chauncey would handle this rotation

I basically agree but I keep wondering if both teams remain uninterested for secondary, non-bball reasons. Sixers probably don’t like that CJ is 30 in a few weeks and probably only has 2-3 more peak seasons (Simmons just turned 25), and Blazers probably don’t like that Simmons is a mysterious/mercurial personality at a time when they can’t afford any slip ups (lest Dame gets annoyed/offended). So both orgs have aims/directions that might be taking them away from what seems like a great swap for on court needs and roster balance.

That seems like a pretty solid analysis of the situation.

I think both teams NEED to do something to alter their current trajectories and that’s always scary for the risk adverse.

[HotelVitale]

I wonder if Washington could jump into all of this.

Washington trades: Deni Avdija, Rui Hachimura, Daniel Gafford, Kentavious Caldwell Pope, Kyle Kuzma, picks
Washington receives: Ben Simmons
Get a true star player who matches well with Beal.

Philadelphia trades: Ben Simmons
Philadelphia receives: Derrick White, Kentavious Caldwell Pope, Lonnie Walker, Daniel Gafford, picks
Get a bunch of depth + a really underrated player in White and picks (don't know what these need to be to fill the gap).

San Antonio trades: Derrick White, Lonnie Walker
San Antonio receives: Deni Avdija, Rui Hachimura, Kyle Kuzma
Move White to clear a bit of the backcourt logjam and get some young frontcourt players.

Good grief. Sixers need a secondary iso scorer ball handler at end of the game.

Not a bunch of role players. White can’t shoot either. Embiid is a better mid range and 3 point shooter than white. If that tells you something.

Maxey and or Milton can step up and play bigger role and not even have to trade for white.

35% from 3 on 7 attempts per game sounds like someone who can shoot at least passably? White is going to surprise people.

I won’t pretend to have paid any attention to White recently but just by the numbers, this was his first year shooting more than a couple 3s per game, and he also shot 30% from short and long midrange and that wasn’t a part of his game. Be tough to rely on that track record when your main aim is to get some guys who can deliver from the perimeter in the PO.

[babyjax13]

Good grief. Sixers need a secondary iso scorer ball handler at end of the game.

Not a bunch of role players. White can’t shoot either. Embiid is a better mid range and 3 point shooter than white. If that tells you something.

Maxey and or Milton can step up and play bigger role and not even have to trade for white.

35% from 3 on 7 attempts per game sounds like someone who can shoot at least passably? White is going to surprise people.

I won’t pretend to have paid any attention to White recently but just by the numbers, this was his first year shooting more than a couple 3s per game, and he also shot 30% from short and long midrange and that wasn’t a part of his game. Be tough to rely on that track record when your main aim is to get some guys who can deliver from the perimeter in the PO.

Fair enough, I know that I am much higher on White than most people.

[HotelVitale]

CJ McCollum is still a great option as a trade candidate for Simmons. I am sure he would thrive in a featured role vs supporting Damian. Oddly, the move would not only answer the defensive issues the Blazers have - but with Powell moving to the starting SG - and Ben becoming a Point SF and PG, it would open up minutes for Nassir Little and Anfernee Simons to develop - even with Covington and Nance Jr sharing time between SF/PF and Center. It would be a great challenge to see how Chauncey would handle this rotation

I basically agree but I keep wondering if both teams remain uninterested for secondary, non-bball reasons. Sixers probably don’t like that CJ is 30 in a few weeks and probably only has 2-3 more peak seasons (Simmons just turned 25), and Blazers probably don’t like that Simmons is a mysterious/mercurial personality at a time when they can’t afford any slip ups (lest Dame gets annoyed/offended). So both orgs have aims/directions that might be taking them away from what seems like a great swap for on court needs and roster balance.

That seems like a pretty solid analysis of the situation.

I think both teams NEED to do something to alter their current trajectories and that’s always scary for the risk adverse.

Right, though I think both teams have reasons to be risk averse now. The Sixers need to be competitive now but also don’t have a simple path to a title for the next couple years, and it seems like getting an aging solid scorer just keeps them hovering around 3rd seeds for a few years. And the Blazers are deep into building around Dame and everything falls apart if he wants out.

If the situations were different—no Nets and Bucks in the east, no Dame panic in Oregon—I would be more optimistic a deal like that could happen.

Edit: one thing that could change that is if the blazers are feeling really nervous around dame and feeling like status quo is a dead end. Trading for Simmons is a realistic floor-raising gamble, esp since they already have the offensive creators to pick up for McCollum and make up for Ben’s struggles in the PO. Just something that could also blow up on you.

[stormi]

I wonder if Washington could jump into all of this.

Washington trades: Deni Avdija, Rui Hachimura, Daniel Gafford, Kentavious Caldwell Pope, Kyle Kuzma, picks
Washington receives: Ben Simmons
Get a true star player who matches well with Beal.

Philadelphia trades: Ben Simmons
Philadelphia receives: Derrick White, Kentavious Caldwell Pope, Lonnie Walker, Daniel Gafford, picks
Get a bunch of depth + a really underrated player in White and picks (don't know what these need to be to fill the gap).

San Antonio trades: Derrick White, Lonnie Walker
San Antonio receives: Deni Avdija, Rui Hachimura, Kyle Kuzma
Move White to clear a bit of the backcourt logjam and get some young frontcourt players.

I actually don't think this deal is horrible depending on the draft pick compensation. Derrick White is a great player, his health is just a major concern. Lonnie Walker is an upside play, and Daniel Gafford is one of the most underrated players itl. It's not a sexy deal, but I'd do this trade over one for a capped our near 30 year type of player that isn't a superstar.