Give your arguments on why Olajuwon > D Rob

[Point-Forward]

Hakeem's massive edge at creating his own shot and making tough ones is the key. Robinson would thrive as an off-ball player but this is not what was asked from him back then. I also think that his shooting ability is a bit overrated.

I also think that he's better defensively, though I can change my mind after scouting Robinson.

Besides, Hakeem has clear longevity edge. This is not up to debate.

Absolutely agree, specially on the bolded part.

And we just can't consider this one a "mere advantage" in the full sea of aspects that are comparable. This right here is absolutely vital compared to the other stuff, specially for a player that regards himself as a franchise star and shot maker under any circumstances. David was great in his own ways, but he simply wasn't that type of player.

Add that to the fact that, at minimum, I consider them to be on a very similar level defensively.

[falcolombardi]

both are all time defenders, the difference is mainly that hakeem could lead his team better offensively which gave him a edge

hakeem was not as great offensively as shaq or kareem, but he was more than robinson

of course someone coukd argue that robinson was more "portable" as a 2nd option in offense, but the problem with that argument is that none of them could afford to be a second option, they ( anda ewing) had rosters that they hada to anchor in both ends, and hakeem did the offense part better

a hipothetical situation in a stacked team where robinson may be a better fit as second offensive option is just a hipothetical

[Doctor MJ]

People often reference the 95 playoff series when the Dream got the better of the Admiral, but outside of that series D Rob had a 30-12 record against Hakeem. Olajuwon averaged more points H2H but D Rob scored more efficiently. Otherwise their numbers were very similar. Both were incredible defenders but IMO D Rob was slightly more impactful on that end of the floor.

Olajuwon was definitely better at creating his own shot, but I have a special appreciation for players who excel off ball the way Robinson did. Both players won 2 rings although unlike D Rob, Hakeem did so as the clear best player on his team. The way I see it, that is by far the biggest reason Olajuwon is a consensus favorite in this debate.

You may have picked up on this but I'm not entirely convinced that Olajuwon was better. I've gone back and forth but I don't understand how people can separate them by 10+ spots as they often do. But hey, I'm a very open-minded person As such, please post your best arguments on why Hakeem > D Rob (or argue the opposite if you're so compelled).

So I'll actually start by saying that I think Robinson was the best player on the '98-99 Spurs team, which I think makes clear that I hold that 2-offense-1-on-defense role really highly.

Between Olajuwon & Robinson, it just makes sense to address who works better as the #1 on offense, and I think in the playoffs that's clearly Olajuwon. The nature of his attack combining superior agility and coordination with tactical combos just made him one of the toughest to stop scoring big men in all of history. Robinson's scoring game was considerably more straight forward, and all the data seems to suggest that while it was more effective in the regular season than Olajuwon's was, Robinson was a more typical big whose scoring could be disrupted pretty sizably if that's your main defensive goal in the series.

So then moving over to a comparison on what each would bring offensively as the #2 scorer, I'm not sure I see any clear reason why Robinson would be more effective as a #2 compared to Olajuwon. To me the argument for '98-99 Robinson is based around him being incredible on defense, and the thing is that I have a slight preference for Olajuwon on defense. He's just quicker and more coordinated.

Re: how can people separate them by 10 spots? A great point. I'll tell you that to me they don't "feel" 10+ spots a part. I likely have Robinson higher than most, so that's perhaps part of it, but what's also true is that I just have to make the judgments I do on a Player A vs Player B perspective that I end up where I end up.

[GeorgeMarcus]

I’m surprised it even needs to be explained. The 1994 playoff run is something Drob wasn’t capable of offensively. Hakeem’s whole playoff career crushes Drob’s offensively and is comparable or better defensively. He destroyed him head to head in Drob’s mvp year to go to the finals. He’s just a better player. I don’t care if Drob had better regular PER or BPM, that doesn’t win championships.

I pay no mind to advanced box metrics like PER, BPM etc because regular box data presents the information in a much more meaningful way. I do however pay a lot of mind to Net Rtg, on/off and RAPM (especially in larger samples). It's a damn shame this information isn't available to us earlier in their careers but let's look at both in the tail end of their careers:

98 RS: Robinson - 46th, Olajuwon - 58th
98 PS: Robinson - 15th, Olajuwon - 160th

99 RS: Robinson - 11th, Olajuwon - 219th
99 PS: Robinson - 1st, Olajuwon - 154th

00 RS: Robinson - 48th, Olajuwon - 314th
00 PS: Robinson - 24th, Olajuwon - missed playoffs

01 RS: Robinson - 13th, Olajuwon - 101st
01 PS: Robinson - 4th, Olajuwon - missed playoffs

At least at the end of their careers, D Rob seems to blow Hakeem out of the water in both RS and PS. He was literally 1st in PS RAPM when the Spurs won their first title in 99. I've conducted further impact analysis regarding team records with and without these players, and D Rob seems to win comfortably over Hakeem as well. What better example than going from a 59-win team to a 20-win team when Robinson got injured in the 97 season?

I love and appreciate Duncan, but if he had played on the Spurs throughout the 90s and then young D Rob joined him at the tail end of the decade, they would likely go from not winning rings to winning a ring in much the same fashion. For no reason other than the fact that having BOTH of those players is a lot better than having one of them. Unfortunately for D Rob, it gets viewed differently- that he needed Duncan to accomplish anything meaningful (despite ranking 1st in playoff RAPM).

Honestly I just don't think people evaluate defensive/overall impact correctly as they typically overvalue individual scoring and man-to-man defense. Which of course hurts Robinson because his greatest attributes on both sides of the court were off ball.

[GeorgeMarcus]

Give your arguments on why Playoffs > Regular Season

Even this I have to call into question when D Rob's playoff record was 70-53 versus Hakeem's which was 76-69. It just seems like everywhere I look, Robinson impacted winning as much/even more than Olajuwon. Having Olajuwon as a go-to offensive option is a point in his favor, but most teams have other scorers to rely on and those scorers would never be undermined by D Rob's style of play. Although unfortunately in the Spurs' case they didn't really amass the necessary scorers to relieve Robinson of that burden in the playoffs (until Duncan).

[migya]

Give your arguments on why Playoffs > Regular Season

Even this I have to call into question when D Rob's playoff record was 70-53 versus Hakeem's which was 76-69. It just seems like everywhere I look, Robinson impacted winning as much/even more than Olajuwon. Having Olajuwon as a go-to offensive option is a point in his favor, but most teams have other scorers to rely on and those scorers would never be undermined by D Rob's style of play. Although unfortunately in the Spurs' case they didn't really amass the necessary scorers to relieve Robinson of that burden in the playoffs (until Duncan).

From his rookie season to 1999 Olajuwon had a 69-66 record in the playoffs, unless I counted wrong. Seems to correlate to Sampson leaving and Floyd regressing as well.

Robinson had 26-29 from his rookie season to 1996. Much shorter time span and then Duncan arrived.

It's hard to win without talent around you as these two players know quite well.

[LukaTheGOAT]

Besides, Hakeem has clear longevity edge. This is not up to debate.

I don't think this is wrong but given the absoluteness of the statement (the appearance of confidence) I might be inclined to argue that in terms of meaningful longevity the gap does tighten.

My guess/impression is Olajuwon's final season of being a clearly, meaningfully above average center is 1998 (e.g. his on off thereafter remains below 0 until 2002, but then looking deeper his NPI RAPM that year is, well, bad [-1.4, 324th]). Mind you the overall number on 97-14 RAPM is still solidly good - if not near Robinson - 97 and 98 make up a larger chunk of minutes than raw years would indicate. '99 and 2000 "A Screaming" NPI and https://sites.google.com/site/rapmstats/2001-npi-rapm are all broadly around 0).

If one is comfortable with wiping those as none-needle movers (arguably generous given his salary) and saying Robinson was a needle mover through to the end (I believe impact data supports this), the minutes are 38466 Hakeem, 34271 Robinson.

Now that's still a clear gap, but it's probably one where if you happen to swing in the pro-Robinson direction on a number of areas you might see him ahead or very close overall: e.g. believe more that playoff differences may be more noisy than others tend to value (including free throw luck versus good defenses), value the greater certainty on Robinson's impact (+/- (more or less) from '94, RAPM from '98 [in his case, functionally], playoff on-off from '97 [caveat emptor on these - small, uneven samples etc]; arrivals and departures at the margin, especially earlier when we don't have other stuff).

Furthermore, because of Robinson's troubles being a #1 scoring threat, he also seemd to create less shots for teammates in the PS than Olajuawon

https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&insightstoken=bcid_Tp9FQKNi0i8DjgUDwBKruXSkcgRN.....3w*ccid_n0VAo2LS&form=ANCMS1&iss=SBIUPLOADGET&selectedindex=0&id=-699750014&ccid=n0VAo2LS&exph=410&expw=600&vt=2&sim=11

I would note that the years chosen aren't necessarily typical of Olajuwon's career norms (and perhaps that Houston had more willing and in those prime years, in the playoffs, able shooters ... cause and effect could be argued, but then so could "because of Robinson's troubles being a #1 ..." versus "because of his teammates lack of a credible spacing threat ..."). RS assist % for career pretty much the same, playoffs - where Olajuwon's longest runs are at his peak, Robinson's are later - Olajuwon has an advantage, turn to assists per 100 (to eliminate player usage) and Robinson edges slightly further ahead in the career, and slightly closer in the playoffs.

You make a good argument, about me focusing heavily on peak. In terms of career, their creation rates seem comparable.

[LukaTheGOAT]

I guess a part 2, to my argument would just be that Hakeem seemed to have accumulated more value in the PS by various metrics.

Hakeem accumulated more playoff winshares-https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ws_career_p.html

More playoff RAPTOR WAR-https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why-michael-jordan-was-the-best/

More Playoff TPA-https://nbamath.com/nba-career-standings/

More Playoff VORP-https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/vorp_career_p.html

One thing to note is that if you look at the RS for each of the metrics I just named, I am pretty sure Robinson is ahead in terms of RS accumulated value. However, in the PS, the metrics do a complete flip to the point where Hakeem has a solid lead in accumulated PS value. Some of that might be due to Robinson missing the PS in 92 and 97 due to injuries and accumulating 123 PS games to Hakeem's 145 (although Hakeem's teams missed the PS as well), but I also think it is telling that they thing he has a notable lead.

Also I think Hakeem was just a different player in the PS. In this video, arguably no player improved as much on offense from the RS to the PS as Hakeem, while Robinson had among the worst dropoffs of any superstar ever.

Watch on YouTube

;t=2s

[No-more-rings]

I’m surprised it even needs to be explained. The 1994 playoff run is something Drob wasn’t capable of offensively. Hakeem’s whole playoff career crushes Drob’s offensively and is comparable or better defensively. He destroyed him head to head in Drob’s mvp year to go to the finals. He’s just a better player. I don’t care if Drob had better regular PER or BPM, that doesn’t win championships.

I pay no mind to advanced box metrics like PER, BPM etc because regular box data presents the information in a much more meaningful way. I do however pay a lot of mind to Net Rtg, on/off and RAPM (especially in larger samples). It's a damn shame this information isn't available to us earlier in their careers but let's look at both in the tail end of their careers:

98 RS: Robinson - 46th, Olajuwon - 58th
98 PS: Robinson - 15th, Olajuwon - 160th

99 RS: Robinson - 11th, Olajuwon - 219th
99 PS: Robinson - 1st, Olajuwon - 154th

00 RS: Robinson - 48th, Olajuwon - 314th
00 PS: Robinson - 24th, Olajuwon - missed playoffs

01 RS: Robinson - 13th, Olajuwon - 101st
01 PS: Robinson - 4th, Olajuwon - missed playoffs

At least at the end of their careers, D Rob seems to blow Hakeem out of the water in both RS and PS. He was literally 1st in PS RAPM when the Spurs won their first title in 99. I've conducted further impact analysis regarding team records with and without these players, and D Rob seems to win comfortably over Hakeem as well. What better example than going from a 59-win team to a 20-win team when Robinson got injured in the 97 season?

I love and appreciate Duncan, but if he had played on the Spurs throughout the 90s and then young D Rob joined him at the tail end of the decade, they would likely go from not winning rings to winning a ring in much the same fashion. For no reason other than the fact that having BOTH of those players is a lot better than having one of them. Unfortunately for D Rob, it gets viewed differently- that he needed Duncan to accomplish anything meaningful (despite ranking 1st in playoff RAPM).

Honestly I just don't think people evaluate defensive/overall impact correctly as they typically overvalue individual scoring and man-to-man defense. Which of course hurts Robinson because his greatest attributes on both sides of the court were off ball.

i understand why you posted the RAPM stuff, but frankly it's not really a good pro-Drob argument unless you're just making the case that Drob's post prime was better. Hakeem started several years earlier and has a longer prime so it doesn't concern me much how Hakeem performed when he was 35-37 years old. It's not irrelevant but certainly doesn't move the needle.

[falcolombardi]

I guess a part 2, to my argument would just be that Hakeem seemed to have accumulated more value in the PS by various metrics.

Hakeem accumulated more playoff winshares-https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ws_career_p.html

More playoff RAPTOR WAR-https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why-michael-jordan-was-the-best/

More Playoff TPA-https://nbamath.com/nba-career-standings/

More Playoff VORP-https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/vorp_career_p.html

One thing to note is that if you look at the RS for each of the metrics I just named, I am pretty sure Robinson is ahead in terms of RS accumulated value. However, in the PS, the metrics do a complete flip to the point where Hakeem has a solid lead in accumulated PS value. Some of that might be due to Robinson missing the PS in 92 and 97 due to injuries and accumulating 123 PS games to Hakeem's 145 (although Hakeem's teams missed the PS as well), but I also think it is telling that they thing he has a notable lead.

Also I think Hakeem was just a different player in the PS. In this video, arguably no player improved as much on offense from the RS to the PS as Hakeem, while Robinson had among the worst dropoffs of any superstar ever.

Watch on YouTube

;t=2s

off topic but that video actually reminds me of one of my biggest criticisms of ben Taylor work that i notice since odinn mentioned it

he pulls all the stops to mention every possible previous injury or extenuating circunstances to justify players worst series or play-off runs but only when is a player he champions

he makes sure to diclaim curry drop off by mentioning valid possibilities that he was a bit hurt in 2018 but when arguing for garnett over duncan or similar ones doesnt apply the same logic for duncan coming back hurt and similar cases

not saying that he does it "maliciously" but is kinda clear

[VanWest82]

Leaving defense aside for the moment (and I do think there’s a good debate to be had there), Dream was an offensive hub in his prime and DRob was not; everything had to be created for him. It really is that simple.

[GeorgeMarcus]

I’m surprised it even needs to be explained. The 1994 playoff run is something Drob wasn’t capable of offensively. Hakeem’s whole playoff career crushes Drob’s offensively and is comparable or better defensively. He destroyed him head to head in Drob’s mvp year to go to the finals. He’s just a better player. I don’t care if Drob had better regular PER or BPM, that doesn’t win championships.

I pay no mind to advanced box metrics like PER, BPM etc because regular box data presents the information in a much more meaningful way. I do however pay a lot of mind to Net Rtg, on/off and RAPM (especially in larger samples). It's a damn shame this information isn't available to us earlier in their careers but let's look at both in the tail end of their careers:

98 RS: Robinson - 46th, Olajuwon - 58th
98 PS: Robinson - 15th, Olajuwon - 160th

99 RS: Robinson - 11th, Olajuwon - 219th
99 PS: Robinson - 1st, Olajuwon - 154th

00 RS: Robinson - 48th, Olajuwon - 314th
00 PS: Robinson - 24th, Olajuwon - missed playoffs

01 RS: Robinson - 13th, Olajuwon - 101st
01 PS: Robinson - 4th, Olajuwon - missed playoffs

At least at the end of their careers, D Rob seems to blow Hakeem out of the water in both RS and PS. He was literally 1st in PS RAPM when the Spurs won their first title in 99. I've conducted further impact analysis regarding team records with and without these players, and D Rob seems to win comfortably over Hakeem as well. What better example than going from a 59-win team to a 20-win team when Robinson got injured in the 97 season?

I love and appreciate Duncan, but if he had played on the Spurs throughout the 90s and then young D Rob joined him at the tail end of the decade, they would likely go from not winning rings to winning a ring in much the same fashion. For no reason other than the fact that having BOTH of those players is a lot better than having one of them. Unfortunately for D Rob, it gets viewed differently- that he needed Duncan to accomplish anything meaningful (despite ranking 1st in playoff RAPM).

Honestly I just don't think people evaluate defensive/overall impact correctly as they typically overvalue individual scoring and man-to-man defense. Which of course hurts Robinson because his greatest attributes on both sides of the court were off ball.

i understand why you posted the RAPM stuff, but frankly it's not really a good pro-Drob argument unless you're just making the case that Drob's post prime was better. Hakeem started several years earlier and has a longer prime so it doesn't concern me much how Hakeem performed when he was 35-37 years old. It's not irrelevant but certainly doesn't move the needle.

Valid rebuttal and to be clear, I don't think those numbers are at all indicative of peak Dream. However I was very impressed with D Rob's numbers considering they were all post-injury (and also at the tail end of his career).

[GeorgeMarcus]

Give your arguments on why Playoffs > Regular Season

Even this I have to call into question when D Rob's playoff record was 70-53 versus Hakeem's which was 76-69. It just seems like everywhere I look, Robinson impacted winning as much/even more than Olajuwon. Having Olajuwon as a go-to offensive option is a point in his favor, but most teams have other scorers to rely on and those scorers would never be undermined by D Rob's style of play. Although unfortunately in the Spurs' case they didn't really amass the necessary scorers to relieve Robinson of that burden in the playoffs (until Duncan).

From his rookie season to 1999 Olajuwon had a 69-66 record in the playoffs, unless I counted wrong. Seems to correlate to Sampson leaving and Floyd regressing as well.

Robinson had 26-29 from his rookie season to 1996. Much shorter time span and then Duncan arrived.

It's hard to win without talent around you as these two players know quite well.

I took the 76-69 figure from bbref (at the top of his career playoff game log), but either way I think you're onto something. Supporting cast is often more important than most people choose to believe when judging star players.

[fatal9]

Just look at Hakeem and D-Rob's regular season scoring numbers in their 3 best scoring years against worst 10 teams in the league and everyone else. D-Rob box score superiority in those regular seasons is basically built on putting up godly efficiency numbers against the worst teams whereas Hakeem doesn't give himself quite the same boost against them.

Hakeem

1993

vs. bottom 10: 25.1 ppg / 58.6 TS%
vs rest of NBA: 26.9 ppg / 57.1 TS%

1994

vs. bottom 10: 27.4 ppg / 55.8 TS%
vs. rest: 27.2 ppg / 56.9 TS%

1995

vs. bottom 10: 28.3 ppg / 58.6 TS%
vs. rest: 27.6 ppg / 55 TS%

Blended 3 yr avg:

Bottom 10: 26.8 ppg / 57.6 TS%
vs. rest: 27.2 ppg / 56.4 TS%



D-Rob

1994

bottom 10: 33.5 ppg / 62.9 TS%
rest: 27.4 ppg / 54.3 TS% (!!!)

1995

bottom 10: 27.9 ppg / 63.8 TS%
rest: 27.4 ppg / 58.2 TS%

1996

bottom 10: 24 ppg / 62.6 TS%
rest: 25.6 ppg / 57.1 TS%

Blended:

bottom 10: 28.6 ppg / 63.1 TS%
rest: 26.8 ppg / 56.5 TS%

So even in the regular season, if you are paying attention to the sort of teams D-Rob is dominating, he already starts to look like a paper tiger. And in the playoffs, as we know, Hakeem starts to open up a massive gap (Hakeem's playoff offensive boxscore numbers over his prime start to look more like playoff Shaq's...remarkable for a guy providing as much defensive impact as he was).

The other thing to recognize is that Hakeem was probably as likely to dominate a playoff game over his prime as MJ and LeBron, who over their prime were as likely to dominate a playoff game as anyone ever. I'm using Gmsc to make the point here, but as far as % of playoff games with Gmsc > 25 (sample size >100 games), LeBron, MJ and Hakeem are basically in their own tier (for players we have the data for) over their primes (40+% of the time they would put up GmSc >25). And he had this ability to dominate playoff games very early in his career, it has always been there. People who are high on Hakeem, like me, fixate on this aspect of his career, that he was as good as anyone ever at putting up dominant end-to-end performances against good teams in the playoffs. When you have an almost 130 game sample size over more than a decade, that has to count for something.

[Matt15]

He’s a more resilient scorer in the playoffs. I’d actually give D-Rob the edge if it were regular season only.

[90sAllDecade]

Just look at Hakeem and D-Rob's regular season scoring numbers in their 3 best scoring years against worst 10 teams in the league and everyone else. D-Rob box score superiority in those regular seasons is basically built on putting up godly efficiency numbers against the worst teams whereas Hakeem doesn't give himself quite the same boost against them.

Hakeem

1993

vs. bottom 10: 25.1 ppg / 58.6 TS%
vs rest of NBA: 26.9 ppg / 57.1 TS%

1994

vs. bottom 10: 27.4 ppg / 55.8 TS%
vs. rest: 27.2 ppg / 56.9 TS%

1995

vs. bottom 10: 28.3 ppg / 58.6 TS%
vs. rest: 27.6 ppg / 55 TS%

Blended 3 yr avg:

Bottom 10: 26.8 ppg / 57.6 TS%
vs. rest: 27.2 ppg / 56.4 TS%



D-Rob

1994

bottom 10: 33.5 ppg / 62.9 TS%
rest: 27.4 ppg / 54.3 TS% (!!!)

1995

bottom 10: 27.9 ppg / 63.8 TS%
rest: 27.4 ppg / 58.2 TS%

1996

bottom 10: 24 ppg / 62.6 TS%
rest: 25.6 ppg / 57.1 TS%

Blended:

bottom 10: 28.6 ppg / 63.1 TS%
rest: 26.8 ppg / 56.5 TS%

So even in the regular season, if you are paying attention to the sort of teams D-Rob is dominating, he already starts to look like a paper tiger. And in the playoffs, as we know, Hakeem starts to open up a massive gap (Hakeem's playoff offensive boxscore numbers over his prime start to look more like playoff Shaq's...remarkable for a guy providing as much defensive impact as he was).

The other thing to recognize is that Hakeem was probably as likely to dominate a playoff game over his prime as MJ and LeBron, who over their prime were as likely to dominate a playoff game as anyone ever. I'm using Gmsc to make the point here, but as far as % of playoff games with Gmsc > 25 (sample size >100 games), LeBron, MJ and Hakeem are basically in their own tier (for players we have the data for) over their primes (40+% of the time they would put up GmSc >25). And he had this ability to dominate playoff games very early in his career, it has always been there. People who are high on Hakeem, like me, fixate on this aspect of his career, that he was as good as anyone ever at putting up dominant end-to-end performances against good teams in the playoffs. When you have an almost 130 game sample size over more than a decade, that has to count for something.

Just here for the fatal9 sighting, glad to hear your input.



Now if someone can convince bastion to post again.

[90sAllDecade]

Also to contribute and keep things fun, here's a little gem for those that like vintage footage.

Hakeem vs rookie David Robinson 1990, it's actually a pretty good game and worth your time.

Watch on YouTube

[Point-Forward]

Just look at Hakeem and D-Rob's regular season scoring numbers in their 3 best scoring years against worst 10 teams in the league and everyone else. D-Rob box score superiority in those regular seasons is basically built on putting up godly efficiency numbers against the worst teams whereas Hakeem doesn't give himself quite the same boost against them.

Hakeem

1993

vs. bottom 10: 25.1 ppg / 58.6 TS%
vs rest of NBA: 26.9 ppg / 57.1 TS%

1994

vs. bottom 10: 27.4 ppg / 55.8 TS%
vs. rest: 27.2 ppg / 56.9 TS%

1995

vs. bottom 10: 28.3 ppg / 58.6 TS%
vs. rest: 27.6 ppg / 55 TS%

Blended 3 yr avg:

Bottom 10: 26.8 ppg / 57.6 TS%
vs. rest: 27.2 ppg / 56.4 TS%



D-Rob

1994

bottom 10: 33.5 ppg / 62.9 TS%
rest: 27.4 ppg / 54.3 TS% (!!!)

1995

bottom 10: 27.9 ppg / 63.8 TS%
rest: 27.4 ppg / 58.2 TS%

1996

bottom 10: 24 ppg / 62.6 TS%
rest: 25.6 ppg / 57.1 TS%

Blended:

bottom 10: 28.6 ppg / 63.1 TS%
rest: 26.8 ppg / 56.5 TS%

So even in the regular season, if you are paying attention to the sort of teams D-Rob is dominating, he already starts to look like a paper tiger. And in the playoffs, as we know, Hakeem starts to open up a massive gap (Hakeem's playoff offensive boxscore numbers over his prime start to look more like playoff Shaq's...remarkable for a guy providing as much defensive impact as he was).

The other thing to recognize is that Hakeem was probably as likely to dominate a playoff game over his prime as MJ and LeBron, who over their prime were as likely to dominate a playoff game as anyone ever. I'm using Gmsc to make the point here, but as far as % of playoff games with Gmsc > 25 (sample size >100 games), LeBron, MJ and Hakeem are basically in their own tier (for players we have the data for) over their primes (40+% of the time they would put up GmSc >25). And he had this ability to dominate playoff games very early in his career, it has always been there. People who are high on Hakeem, like me, fixate on this aspect of his career, that he was as good as anyone ever at putting up dominant end-to-end performances against good teams in the playoffs. When you have an almost 130 game sample size over more than a decade, that has to count for something.

Solid post.

I still can't understand why Hakeem isn't debated more often in the top-5 all time. He has a pretty strong case if you ask me.