Cedric Ceballos in ICU with COVID

[BoogieTime]

So what's in bold is what's relevant here. This would be at the heart of wanting to force others to get the vaccine. Even if this was true there are still "breakthrough" infections and quickly waning immunity severely limiting the usefulness of the vaccine.

Lower viral load, coupled with less restrictions for those who are vaccinated means MORE spread. Someone with a lower viral load is far more likely to be an asymptomatic transmitter.

i wouldn't say it's quickly waning, though the rate at which it wanes isn't fully known at this stage

we currently have UK data that mRNA vaccines (pfizer/moderna) wane faster than vector vaccine (astrazeneca), but is still more protective at 6 months post second dose than single dose or unvaccinated (obvious, but bares repeating)

we have data from a pfizer submission to the fda that says that a third shot 5-8 months post second dose boosts immunity to rates higher than just the second dose, hence the fda approving it for immunocompromised pops

as for less restrictions, well yeh, more circulation means more infections, so protect yourselves accordingly, get vaccinated and encourage those around you to do the same

So you agree that those who are vaccinated are more likely to be walking around infected unknowingly? That although they may be less infectious, someone who is no longer social distancing, masking etc may actually be more likely to spread Covid to more people as a function of them not feeling sick?

*I'd also say that 5 months of significantly waning protection is quick.

One of the issues is if its proven antibodies are a lot stronger than vaccine, does that cause one to hesitate?

https://www.timesofisrael.com/study-covid-recovery-gave-israelis-longer-lasting-delta-defense-than-vaccines/

Is it easier to just get covid once, particularly if your younger/relatively healthy and you know how to mitigate risk somewhat by supplement for it, than to continually get booster vaccine (when, yes, the safety of the vaccine itself isnt completely verified) when some form of breakthrough might be in the cards as well?

**not saying whether or not I'm personally vaccinated

[Hobo4President]

https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/public-health/nearly-60-of-hospitalized-covid-19-patients-in-israel-fully-vaccinated-study-finds.html

This is because of the simpson's paradox. In Israel, when split into age cohorts the the vaccines used are ~90% effective at preventing severe illness. That's with this current delta wave.

[Plutonashfan]

https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/public-health/nearly-60-of-hospitalized-covid-19-patients-in-israel-fully-vaccinated-study-finds.html

SHHHHH... They aren't ready for that.

Umm yeah we are. There's this thing called waning efficacy that I was able to understand as a 5th grader. Hence the scientific community has recommended booster shots. Also it seems that site is a news aggregator rather then a news site, with dodgy sources and even shadier upper management, what's next some facebook posts, but please do carry on...

[Shock Defeat]

https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/public-health/nearly-60-of-hospitalized-covid-19-patients-in-israel-fully-vaccinated-study-finds.html

SHHHHH... They aren't ready for that.

Umm yeah we are. There's this thing called waning efficacy that I was able to understand as a 5th grader. Hence the scientific community has recommended booster shots. Also it seems that site is a news aggregator rather then a news site, with dodgy sources and even shadier upper management, what's next some facebook posts, but please do carry on...

Also, I feel as though there is another problem with stats like these. If 100% of a country is vaccinated, then all of the hospitalizations would be of vaccinated people, does that mean that vaccines don't work?

[Dr Aki]

So you agree that those who are vaccinated are more likely to be walking around infected unknowingly? That although they may be less infectious, someone who is no longer social distancing, masking etc may actually be more likely to spread Covid to more people as a function of them not feeling sick?

at the moment that's not really an answerable question, because:
1. it assumes all vaccinated people don't feel the need to mask and social distance
2. it assumes vaccinated people don't mask and/or social distance at the same or higher rate than unvaccinated people (and we know some unvaccinated people don't)

it depends on the setting of where you do your research, i'm sure if you do research here in australia (where in western sydney we have lockdowns and curfews, a 5 km radius for non-essential travel, mask mandates), you'll find that vaccinated people aren't the ones being transmission vectors

if you do the same research in parts of the US where community exposure is high and social enforcement is low, then you might get different results.

the only reliable (nb: controlled) research that you can do at the moment is household transmission among vaccinated and unvaccinated households with confirmed covid cases, or when cases/community infections get out of control anyway, look at population vaccination rates and then rates of hospitalisations/ICU/deaths

That's true. However, what we are seeing around the world is more privileges for those who are vaccinated. In many settings they wont be subjected to testing and will be allowed to engage in activities that result in close contact with others. If they are less likely to know they are infected, they are also likely to be out infecting others.

So I've yet to see a reason to force those who don't want it to get it. We haven't even gotten into all the complications and deaths from the vaccine.

well, the big reason to force vaccine mandates is to lower rates of hospitalisation/ICU/deaths

and there's A LOT of data that rates of complications from vaccines pale in comparison to rates of complications from contracting covid

for example, the rate of getting clots from the vaccine is like 4-6 per 1,000,000 compared to 40 per 1,000,000 if you get covid

so yeh, i would hope most people would play the percentages, but apparently, that's a hill some people are willing to die on

[Hobo4President]

Here's wishing Ceballos gets better sooner rather than later.

As for the thread, it's beyond disgusting reading people saying he should be left to die based on his vacination status.

It's a human life right there. All should be treasured. All of them matters, to themselves, to their families and friends, and to God too.

Healthcare is a human right unless you don't do what I tell you.

I don't think anyone here is suggesting he be denied treatment if there's the capacity in the ICU, people are just suggesting triage be based upon vaccination status.

[LofJ]

at the moment that's not really an answerable question, because:
1. it assumes all vaccinated people don't feel the need to mask and social distance
2. it assumes vaccinated people don't mask and/or social distance at the same or higher rate than unvaccinated people (and we know some unvaccinated people don't)

it depends on the setting of where you do your research, i'm sure if you do research here in australia (where in western sydney we have lockdowns and curfews, a 5 km radius for non-essential travel, mask mandates), you'll find that vaccinated people aren't the ones being transmission vectors

if you do the same research in parts of the US where community exposure is high and social enforcement is low, then you might get different results.

the only reliable (nb: controlled) research that you can do at the moment is household transmission among vaccinated and unvaccinated households with confirmed covid cases, or when cases/community infections get out of control anyway, look at population vaccination rates and then rates of hospitalisations/ICU/deaths

That's true. However, what we are seeing around the world is more privileges for those who are vaccinated. In many settings they wont be subjected to testing and will be allowed to engage in activities that result in close contact with others. If they are less likely to know they are infected, they are also likely to be out infecting others.

So I've yet to see a reason to force those who don't want it to get it. We haven't even gotten into all the complications and deaths from the vaccine.

well, the big reason to force vaccine mandates is to lower rates of hospitalisation/ICU/deaths

and there's A LOT of data that rates of complications from vaccines pale in comparison to rates of complications from contracting covid

for example, the rate of getting clots from the vaccine is like 4-6 per 1,000,000 compared to 40 per 1,000,000 if you get covid

so yeh, i would hope most people would play the percentages, but apparently, that's a hill some people are willing to die on

Yep, my aunt was one of those 40 per 1,000,000 and she's dead. **** everyone that's out there casting doubt about vaccines. They've been the most effective tool at the disposal of the medical industry for over a century. They have saved hundreds of millions of lives.

[Neutral 123]

at the moment that's not really an answerable question, because:
1. it assumes all vaccinated people don't feel the need to mask and social distance
2. it assumes vaccinated people don't mask and/or social distance at the same or higher rate than unvaccinated people (and we know some unvaccinated people don't)

it depends on the setting of where you do your research, i'm sure if you do research here in australia (where in western sydney we have lockdowns and curfews, a 5 km radius for non-essential travel, mask mandates), you'll find that vaccinated people aren't the ones being transmission vectors

if you do the same research in parts of the US where community exposure is high and social enforcement is low, then you might get different results.

the only reliable (nb: controlled) research that you can do at the moment is household transmission among vaccinated and unvaccinated households with confirmed covid cases, or when cases/community infections get out of control anyway, look at population vaccination rates and then rates of hospitalisations/ICU/deaths

That's true. However, what we are seeing around the world is more privileges for those who are vaccinated. In many settings they wont be subjected to testing and will be allowed to engage in activities that result in close contact with others. If they are less likely to know they are infected, they are also likely to be out infecting others.

So I've yet to see a reason to force those who don't want it to get it. We haven't even gotten into all the complications and deaths from the vaccine.

well, the big reason to force vaccine mandates is to lower rates of hospitalisation/ICU/deaths

and there's A LOT of data that rates of complications from vaccines pale in comparison to rates of complications from contracting covid

for example, the rate of getting clots from the vaccine is like 4-6 per 1,000,000 compared to 40 per 1,000,000 if you get covid

so yeh, i would hope most people would play the percentages, but apparently, that's a hill some people are willing to die on

The hill worth dying on is not whether the vaccine is the best choice or not. The hill absolutely worth dying on is retaining the individual God given right to choose.

My only reason for even discussing the vaccine is to point out how those who do not no with 100% certainty, feel they have the right to control and force others who disagree. A worldview with horrific outcomes.

[Neutral 123]

Here's wishing Ceballos gets better sooner rather than later.

As for the thread, it's beyond disgusting reading people saying he should be left to die based on his vacination status.

It's a human life right there. All should be treasured. All of them matters, to themselves, to their families and friends, and to God too.

Healthcare is a human right unless you don't do what I tell you.

I don't think anyone here is suggesting he be denied treatment if there's the capacity in the ICU, people are just suggesting triage be based upon vaccination status.

Many have suggested just that. treatment in a situation like that would be typically based on other factors such as likelihood to survive, age etc, not vaccine status. This is being suggested to be used as a weapon against those who want the right to make personal decisions themselves.

[Hobo4President]

That's true. However, what we are seeing around the world is more privileges for those who are vaccinated. In many settings they wont be subjected to testing and will be allowed to engage in activities that result in close contact with others. If they are less likely to know they are infected, they are also likely to be out infecting others.

So I've yet to see a reason to force those who don't want it to get it. We haven't even gotten into all the complications and deaths from the vaccine.

well, the big reason to force vaccine mandates is to lower rates of hospitalisation/ICU/deaths

and there's A LOT of data that rates of complications from vaccines pale in comparison to rates of complications from contracting covid

for example, the rate of getting clots from the vaccine is like 4-6 per 1,000,000 compared to 40 per 1,000,000 if you get covid

so yeh, i would hope most people would play the percentages, but apparently, that's a hill some people are willing to die on

The hill worth dying on is not whether the vaccine is the best choice or not. The hill absolutely worth dying on is retaining the individual God given right to choose.

My only reason for even discussing the vaccine is to point out how those who do not no with 100% certainty, feel they have the right to control and force others who disagree. A worldview with horrific outcomes.

You say that but you're in here arguing that the vaccines are 50% effective based on a paradox in statistics...

[Neutral 123]

i wouldn't say it's quickly waning, though the rate at which it wanes isn't fully known at this stage

we currently have UK data that mRNA vaccines (pfizer/moderna) wane faster than vector vaccine (astrazeneca), but is still more protective at 6 months post second dose than single dose or unvaccinated (obvious, but bares repeating)

we have data from a pfizer submission to the fda that says that a third shot 5-8 months post second dose boosts immunity to rates higher than just the second dose, hence the fda approving it for immunocompromised pops

as for less restrictions, well yeh, more circulation means more infections, so protect yourselves accordingly, get vaccinated and encourage those around you to do the same

So you agree that those who are vaccinated are more likely to be walking around infected unknowingly? That although they may be less infectious, someone who is no longer social distancing, masking etc may actually be more likely to spread Covid to more people as a function of them not feeling sick?

*I'd also say that 5 months of significantly waning protection is quick.

One of the issues is if its proven antibodies are a lot stronger than vaccine, does that cause one to hesitate?

https://www.timesofisrael.com/study-covid-recovery-gave-israelis-longer-lasting-delta-defense-than-vaccines/

Is it easier to just get covid once, particularly if your younger/relatively healthy and you know how to mitigate risk somewhat by supplement for it, than to continually get booster vaccine (when, yes, the safety of the vaccine itself isnt completely verified) when some form of breakthrough might be in the cards as well?

**not saying whether or not I'm personally vaccinated

Yes. The beauty of personal decision making is that people can make the decision best for them based on their personal situation.

These people want blanket 'solutions' and that never makes sense. An 80 year old in failing health would likely be wise to get the vaccine. A healthy 20 year old may want to consider supplements, keeping fit, masking and social distancing instead. A good strategy in my opinion as every other week they have new warnings and an endless stream of booster shots in the pipeline.
Bottom line is that individuals must have the right to choose. Not third parties who pay no price for being wrong.

[Neutral 123]

well, the big reason to force vaccine mandates is to lower rates of hospitalisation/ICU/deaths

and there's A LOT of data that rates of complications from vaccines pale in comparison to rates of complications from contracting covid

for example, the rate of getting clots from the vaccine is like 4-6 per 1,000,000 compared to 40 per 1,000,000 if you get covid

so yeh, i would hope most people would play the percentages, but apparently, that's a hill some people are willing to die on

The hill worth dying on is not whether the vaccine is the best choice or not. The hill absolutely worth dying on is retaining the individual God given right to choose.

My only reason for even discussing the vaccine is to point out how those who do not no with 100% certainty, feel they have the right to control and force others who disagree. A worldview with horrific outcomes.

You say that but you're in here arguing that the vaccines are 50% effective based on a paradox in statistics...

No, I'm in here arguing that people should have the right to choose. That's especially true given the uncertainty surrounding the vaccines and someone not getting vaccinated only affects that individual.

[clyde21]

If he isn’t vaccinated, this might sound cruel but IMO he should automatically give up, or at least be at the end of the queue for the ICU.

not only is this illogical and unfactual, but disgustingly immoral...congrats on all fronts.

[Swish1906]

That's true. However, what we are seeing around the world is more privileges for those who are vaccinated. In many settings they wont be subjected to testing and will be allowed to engage in activities that result in close contact with others. If they are less likely to know they are infected, they are also likely to be out infecting others.

So I've yet to see a reason to force those who don't want it to get it. We haven't even gotten into all the complications and deaths from the vaccine.

well, the big reason to force vaccine mandates is to lower rates of hospitalisation/ICU/deaths

and there's A LOT of data that rates of complications from vaccines pale in comparison to rates of complications from contracting covid

for example, the rate of getting clots from the vaccine is like 4-6 per 1,000,000 compared to 40 per 1,000,000 if you get covid

so yeh, i would hope most people would play the percentages, but apparently, that's a hill some people are willing to die on

The hill worth dying on is not whether the vaccine is the best choice or not. The hill absolutely worth dying on is retaining the individual God given right to choose.

My only reason for even discussing the vaccine is to point out how those who do not no with 100% certainty, feel they have the right to control and force others who disagree. A worldview with horrific outcomes.

And back to page 1. Meet Christopher Green, proud owner of the freedom choice hill. His own words through a breathing tube

Watch on YouTube

[Hobo4President]

The hill worth dying on is not whether the vaccine is the best choice or not. The hill absolutely worth dying on is retaining the individual God given right to choose.

My only reason for even discussing the vaccine is to point out how those who do not no with 100% certainty, feel they have the right to control and force others who disagree. A worldview with horrific outcomes.

You say that but you're in here arguing that the vaccines are 50% effective based on a paradox in statistics...

No, I'm in here arguing that people should have the right to choose. That's especially true given the uncertainty surrounding the vaccines and someone not getting vaccinated only affects that individual.

Your first posts in this thread are literally on the efficacy of the vaccines and have nothing to do with rights.

[Neutral 123]

well, the big reason to force vaccine mandates is to lower rates of hospitalisation/ICU/deaths

and there's A LOT of data that rates of complications from vaccines pale in comparison to rates of complications from contracting covid

for example, the rate of getting clots from the vaccine is like 4-6 per 1,000,000 compared to 40 per 1,000,000 if you get covid

so yeh, i would hope most people would play the percentages, but apparently, that's a hill some people are willing to die on

The hill worth dying on is not whether the vaccine is the best choice or not. The hill absolutely worth dying on is retaining the individual God given right to choose.

My only reason for even discussing the vaccine is to point out how those who do not no with 100% certainty, feel they have the right to control and force others who disagree. A worldview with horrific outcomes.

And back to page 1. Meet Christopher Green, proud owner of the freedom choice hill. His own words through a breathing tube

Watch on YouTube

What a man. Now do one for those who died being forced into a vaccine they didn't want or still died from Covid despite being vaccinated.

[madmaxmedia]

It's incredibly unlikely that he is fully vaccinated, the stats prove it out.

We've just seen this story so many times, when people ask for prayers or gofundme pages for being hospitalized with covid, it turns out that they weren't vaccinated.

Yup, but like most things the anti-vaxx crowds doesn't understand medicine, science, or even basic math or statistics. Hopefully he gets better but sounds like his in real bad shape.

Sadly he'll probably never fully recover. Even if he makes it, people on long termed ventilators have damaged/scarred lungs. All of this is so stupid and senseless.

1. Statistically speaking, there's a good chance he is not vaccinated.
2. I am curious if he is vaccinated.
3. I am hoping for his recovery and health regardless.

[Neutral 123]

You say that but you're in here arguing that the vaccines are 50% effective based on a paradox in statistics...

No, I'm in here arguing that people should have the right to choose. That's especially true given the uncertainty surrounding the vaccines and someone not getting vaccinated only affects that individual.

Your first posts in this thread are literally on the efficacy of the vaccines and have nothing to do with rights.

Yes. I was hoping to get just one reason, just one reason to justify vaccine mandates. Still haven't gotten it, and then defended my right to choose, given there's not a single reason in the world for a mandate.

[Hobo4President]

No, I'm in here arguing that people should have the right to choose. That's especially true given the uncertainty surrounding the vaccines and someone not getting vaccinated only affects that individual.

Your first posts in this thread are literally on the efficacy of the vaccines and have nothing to do with rights.

Yes. I was hoping to get just one reason, just one reason to justify vaccine mandates. Still haven't gotten it, and then defended my right to choose, given there's not a single reason in the world for a mandate.

Well I don't believe in mandates even if the vaccines were 100% effective. I still don't see how making a few misinformed posts about the effectiveness of vaccines is defending your rights.

[madmaxmedia]

That's true. However, what we are seeing around the world is more privileges for those who are vaccinated. In many settings they wont be subjected to testing and will be allowed to engage in activities that result in close contact with others. If they are less likely to know they are infected, they are also likely to be out infecting others.

So I've yet to see a reason to force those who don't want it to get it. We haven't even gotten into all the complications and deaths from the vaccine.

well, the big reason to force vaccine mandates is to lower rates of hospitalisation/ICU/deaths

and there's A LOT of data that rates of complications from vaccines pale in comparison to rates of complications from contracting covid

for example, the rate of getting clots from the vaccine is like 4-6 per 1,000,000 compared to 40 per 1,000,000 if you get covid

so yeh, i would hope most people would play the percentages, but apparently, that's a hill some people are willing to die on

The hill worth dying on is not whether the vaccine is the best choice or not. The hill absolutely worth dying on is retaining the individual God given right to choose.

My only reason for even discussing the vaccine is to point out how those who do not no with 100% certainty, feel they have the right to control and force others who disagree. A worldview with horrific outcomes.

I really appreciate that you guys are having a thoughtful, reasonable discussion about this, it adds a lot of value to this thread.