Cedric Ceballos in ICU with COVID

[Neutral 123]

Your first posts in this thread are literally on the efficacy of the vaccines and have nothing to do with rights.

Yes. I was hoping to get just one reason, just one reason to justify vaccine mandates. Still haven't gotten it, and then defended my right to choose, given there's not a single reason in the world for a mandate.

Well I don't believe in mandates even if the vaccine was 100% effective. I still don't see how making a few misinformed posts about the effectiveness of vaccines is defending your rights.

What was misinformed?

Fully vaccinated individuals diagnosed with COVID-19 were significantly protected from severe outcomes. Compared to unvaccinated cases, fully vaccinated cases were 74% less likely to be hospitalized and 49% less likely to die as a result of their illness (Table 3).

Sorry, 49% not 50% less likely to die.

https://health-infobase.canada.ca/covid-19/epidemiological-summary-covid-19-cases.html

*edit It's important to know the numbers. It's clear that these vaccines are NOT the end of this, and the long term complications remain a mystery. It's completely reasonable for a young and healthy person to choose continued masking and social distancing. But that's just my opinion. If a 90 year old doesn't want the jab, that's their right not to get it. Where does anyone get off trying to force a medical procedure on someone else of sound mind?

[madmaxmedia]

No, I'm in here arguing that people should have the right to choose. That's especially true given the uncertainty surrounding the vaccines and someone not getting vaccinated only affects that individual.

Your first posts in this thread are literally on the efficacy of the vaccines and have nothing to do with rights.

Yes. I was hoping to get just one reason, just one reason to justify vaccine mandates. Still haven't gotten it, and then defended my right to choose, given there's not a single reason in the world for a mandate.

I am pretty pro-vaccine, but very on the fence about mandates. I think employers or institutions have the prerogative to mandate vaccines, but even that is a subject not to be taken lightly.

There's at least some shades of gray in all of this, when we can all accept this we can have much more productive conversations and avoid politicization. I never thought I'd live to see the day that certain treatments would become extremely right or left-associated.

[old skool]

Covid-19 is a serious public health crisis that has damaged millions of lives and has damaged the global economy.

In the United States, the disease has caused more deaths than every foreign war combined. Every 2 days more Americans die from Covid-19 than were killed in the 9/11 terrorist attacks.. Covid-19 has destroyed our economy so severely that we have had to borrow trillions of dollars to keep the economy from collapsing (a move supported by virtually every political leader).

Public health officials overwhelmingly say that the solutions to Covid-19 are vaccines, mask wearing, distancing and testing. This includes every major hospital system and every major medical association. There is a broad consensus that vaccines would prevent hundreds of thousands of people from dying needlessly if everyone would take the vaccine.

In the United States democracy, the majority of citizens support following the guidance of the public health officials. The failure of the minority to comply is resulting in deaths, illness, and economic debt. That failure is costing lives, weakening our health system's capability to do its job, and undermining our financial future. The consequences of these failures are all measurable. They are staggering in ways that transcend the impact on any single individual. No one should be surprised that news of one victim leads to a discussion of the broader impact.





Sent from my SM-N960U using RealGM mobile app

[Swish1906]

The hill worth dying on is not whether the vaccine is the best choice or not. The hill absolutely worth dying on is retaining the individual God given right to choose.

My only reason for even discussing the vaccine is to point out how those who do not no with 100% certainty, feel they have the right to control and force others who disagree. A worldview with horrific outcomes.

And back to page 1. Meet Christopher Green, proud owner of the freedom choice hill. His own words through a breathing tube

Watch on YouTube

What a man. Now do one for those who died being forced into a vaccine they didn't want or still died from Covid despite being vaccinated.

Yes, what a man. What a son. Made his parents in their 70s bury their own son. The parents who btw were vaxxed, got covid and (shocker) didnt die. They are going to have a really nice retirement.

And your second take is of course another classic. Trying to make something equal / on the same level that isnt even close to be on the same level.

[Swish1906]

No, I'm in here arguing that people should have the right to choose. That's especially true given the uncertainty surrounding the vaccines and someone not getting vaccinated only affects that individual.

Your first posts in this thread are literally on the efficacy of the vaccines and have nothing to do with rights.

Yes. I was hoping to get just one reason, just one reason to justify vaccine mandates. Still haven't gotten it, and then defended my right to choose, given there's not a single reason in the world for a mandate.

UCI with 90%+ unvaxxed people. Incoming triage in Idaho (and soon other states).

Thats the damn reason right there. But of course you allready tried to shut down this argument with a misleading article about Israel and also ignoring all the posts explaining it

[Neutral 123]

Your first posts in this thread are literally on the efficacy of the vaccines and have nothing to do with rights.

Yes. I was hoping to get just one reason, just one reason to justify vaccine mandates. Still haven't gotten it, and then defended my right to choose, given there's not a single reason in the world for a mandate.

I am pretty pro-vaccine, but very on the fence about mandates. I think employers or institutions have the prerogative to mandate vaccines, but even that is a subject not to be taken lightly.

There's at least some shades of gray in all of this, when we can all accept this we can have much more productive conversations and avoid politicization. I never thought I'd live to see the day that certain treatments would become extremely right or left-associated.

Hahaha, well there's the my body, my choice treatment. Apparently that slogan doesn't apply to vaccines.

My issue with employer mandates is that they are govt mandates masquerading as employer mandates. Govt pressuring employers.

I'm not even pro or against the vaccine. I'm pro choice. Based on the numbers, it makes far more sense for those who are older and in poor health to take it. Those who are young and healthy are risking who knows what in the long term.

I think what's missing in all these discussions is there is an assumption, a very dangerous one, that the experts can't be wrong. What if they are wrong? Were we better off forcing everyone to get it, or allowing people to choose?

[Hobo4President]

Yes. I was hoping to get just one reason, just one reason to justify vaccine mandates. Still haven't gotten it, and then defended my right to choose, given there's not a single reason in the world for a mandate.

Well I don't believe in mandates even if the vaccine was 100% effective. I still don't see how making a few misinformed posts about the effectiveness of vaccines is defending your rights.

What was misinformed?

Fully vaccinated individuals diagnosed with COVID-19 were significantly protected from severe outcomes. Compared to unvaccinated cases, fully vaccinated cases were 74% less likely to be hospitalized and 49% less likely to die as a result of their illness (Table 3).

Sorry, 49% not 50% less likely to die.

https://health-infobase.canada.ca/covid-19/epidemiological-summary-covid-19-cases.html

*edit It's important to know the numbers. It's clear that these vaccines are NOT the end of this, and the long term complications remain a mystery. It's completely reasonable for a young and healthy person to choose continued masking and social distancing. But that's just my opinion. If a 90 year old doesn't want the jab, that's their right not to get it. Where does anyone get off trying to force a medical procedure on someone else of sound mind?

The Israel example for one, the canada stuff is interesting, and I haven't seen that before, I'll have to look into it.

[Dominator83]

So I guess obese people should be the last to receive medical care from here on out. Since they put the biggest strain on the health care system.

If you could get a couple free inoculations that prevent obesity it would certainly save a lot of lives and a lot of money spent on public health.

Last time I check a healthy life style is as free as those jabs and way safer.

I wouldn't call it free. The price to eat healthy is a hell of a lot more than the price of eating unhealthy junk.

[Neutral 123]

Your first posts in this thread are literally on the efficacy of the vaccines and have nothing to do with rights.

Yes. I was hoping to get just one reason, just one reason to justify vaccine mandates. Still haven't gotten it, and then defended my right to choose, given there's not a single reason in the world for a mandate.

UCI with 90%+ unvaxxed people. Incoming triage in Idaho (and soon other states).

Thats the damn reason right there. But of course you allready tried to shut down this argument with a misleading article about Israel and also ignoring all the posts explaining it

That's not a reason to force it on others. People have a right to eat themselves to death, drug themselves to death, smoke themselves to death. I don't like it, I'm not going to recommend it, but I would never ban junk food, ban obesity, ban smoking, ban alcohol because it isn't good for your health. People have a right to be wrong.

[Neutral 123]

If you could get a couple free inoculations that prevent obesity it would certainly save a lot of lives and a lot of money spent on public health.

Last time I check a healthy life style is as free as those jabs and way safer.

I wouldn't call it free. The price to eat healthy is a hell of a lot more than the price of eating unhealthy junk.

Absolutely untrue.

[Hobo4President]

If you could get a couple free inoculations that prevent obesity it would certainly save a lot of lives and a lot of money spent on public health.

Last time I check a healthy life style is as free as those jabs and way safer.

I wouldn't call it free. The price to eat healthy is a hell of a lot more than the price of eating unhealthy junk.

This is only true if you're surviving on instant ramen or something. Anything preprepared is overpriced when compared to healthy alternatives. Just don't get organic because that's got a premium.

[Neutral 123]

Well I don't believe in mandates even if the vaccine was 100% effective. I still don't see how making a few misinformed posts about the effectiveness of vaccines is defending your rights.

What was misinformed?

Fully vaccinated individuals diagnosed with COVID-19 were significantly protected from severe outcomes. Compared to unvaccinated cases, fully vaccinated cases were 74% less likely to be hospitalized and 49% less likely to die as a result of their illness (Table 3).

Sorry, 49% not 50% less likely to die.

https://health-infobase.canada.ca/covid-19/epidemiological-summary-covid-19-cases.html

*edit It's important to know the numbers. It's clear that these vaccines are NOT the end of this, and the long term complications remain a mystery. It's completely reasonable for a young and healthy person to choose continued masking and social distancing. But that's just my opinion. If a 90 year old doesn't want the jab, that's their right not to get it. Where does anyone get off trying to force a medical procedure on someone else of sound mind?

The Israel example for one, the canada stuff is interesting, and I haven't seen that before, I'll have to look into it.

Yes, they have very good information. If you look at figure 7 you'll see that 64% of all deaths with Covid are in those who are 80 plus years old. Another 20% are 70-79 and 10% 60-69.

That means 94% of all deaths are in those 60 and above. This is the sort of data that puts this into proper perspective. That's why I've been saying that it's probably a good idea for the old to get vaccinated. The answer is not so clear for someone who is young and healthy, especially given the complications being discovered with the vaccine.

[madmaxmedia]

Last time I check a healthy life style is as free as those jabs and way safer.

I wouldn't call it free. The price to eat healthy is a hell of a lot more than the price of eating unhealthy junk.

This is only true if you're surviving on instant ramen or something. Anything preprepared is overpriced when compared to healthy alternatives. Just don't get organic because that's got a premium.

There's a lot of pressure on families with 2 working parents to choose the fast alternative over the healthy one. Not totally discounting personal responsibility in the matter, but it's not necessarily so easy either.

[Letsgokings]

Get the vaccine you stupid **** heads

[Hobo4President]

What was misinformed?


Sorry, 49% not 50% less likely to die.

https://health-infobase.canada.ca/covid-19/epidemiological-summary-covid-19-cases.html

*edit It's important to know the numbers. It's clear that these vaccines are NOT the end of this, and the long term complications remain a mystery. It's completely reasonable for a young and healthy person to choose continued masking and social distancing. But that's just my opinion. If a 90 year old doesn't want the jab, that's their right not to get it. Where does anyone get off trying to force a medical procedure on someone else of sound mind?

The Israel example for one, the canada stuff is interesting, and I haven't seen that before, I'll have to look into it.

Yes, they have very good information. If you look at figure 7 you'll see that 64% of all deaths with Covid are in those who are 80 plus years old. Another 20% are 70-79 and 10% 60-69.

That means 94% of all deaths are in those 60 and above. This is the sort of data that puts this into proper perspective. That's why I've been saying that it's probably a good idea for the old to get vaccinated. The answer is not so clear for someone who is young and healthy, especially given the complications being discovered with the vaccine.

Yeah but the implication with the Israel stuff is that the vaccine isn't that effective when the data suggests its 90% effective. Everyone should get vaccinated if its safe and recommended for them because it decreases their chances of dying. Whether they want to is up to them.

[WillyJakkz]

Prayers for Ceballos, that apology was truly heartfelt.

Anyone wishing death on this guy for not being vaccinated is in for a very rude awakening when their time comes as you most certainly won't go out in the blaze of glory or softly like you think you will, or maybe even someone you actually care about. Your mean spirited words have repercussions.

[Hobo4President]

I wouldn't call it free. The price to eat healthy is a hell of a lot more than the price of eating unhealthy junk.

This is only true if you're surviving on instant ramen or something. Anything preprepared is overpriced when compared to healthy alternatives. Just don't get organic because that's got a premium.

There's a lot of pressure on families with 2 working parents to choose the fast alternative over the healthy one. Not totally discounting personal responsibility in the matter, but it's not necessarily so easy either.

I agree, I just don't like it when people suggest eating healthy is expensive. It's really not, and if you meal prep you can make meals for a whole week in about an hour.

[Neutral 123]

The Israel example for one, the canada stuff is interesting, and I haven't seen that before, I'll have to look into it.

Yes, they have very good information. If you look at figure 7 you'll see that 64% of all deaths with Covid are in those who are 80 plus years old. Another 20% are 70-79 and 10% 60-69.

That means 94% of all deaths are in those 60 and above. This is the sort of data that puts this into proper perspective. That's why I've been saying that it's probably a good idea for the old to get vaccinated. The answer is not so clear for someone who is young and healthy, especially given the complications being discovered with the vaccine.

Yeah but the implication with the Israel stuff is that the vaccine isn't that effective when the data suggests its 90% effective. Everyone should get vaccinated if its safe and recommended for them because it decreases their chances of dying. Whether they want to is up to them.

It's not known if the vaccine is safe, especially given the endless need for boosters. The complications have been concentrated in young men as well. And as the Canadian data shows, this is a disease that overwhelmingly kills the elderly. Why 5 year olds will be pushed into getting this vaccine soon enough is beyond me.

[Aventador]

Yes. I was hoping to get just one reason, just one reason to justify vaccine mandates. Still haven't gotten it, and then defended my right to choose, given there's not a single reason in the world for a mandate.

I am pretty pro-vaccine, but very on the fence about mandates. I think employers or institutions have the prerogative to mandate vaccines, but even that is a subject not to be taken lightly.

There's at least some shades of gray in all of this, when we can all accept this we can have much more productive conversations and avoid politicization. I never thought I'd live to see the day that certain treatments would become extremely right or left-associated.

Hahaha, well there's the my body, my choice treatment. Apparently that slogan doesn't apply to vaccines.

My issue with employer mandates is that they are govt mandates masquerading as employer mandates. Govt pressuring employers.

I'm not even pro or against the vaccine. I'm pro choice. Based on the numbers, it makes far more sense for those who are older and in poor health to take it. Those who are young and healthy are risking who knows what in the long term.

I think what's missing in all these discussions is there is an assumption, a very dangerous one, that the experts can't be wrong. What if they are wrong? Were we better off forcing everyone to get it, or allowing people to choose?

you're so close to the correct conclusion, then veered off so suddenly. shame.

[Neutral 123]

This is only true if you're surviving on instant ramen or something. Anything preprepared is overpriced when compared to healthy alternatives. Just don't get organic because that's got a premium.

There's a lot of pressure on families with 2 working parents to choose the fast alternative over the healthy one. Not totally discounting personal responsibility in the matter, but it's not necessarily so easy either.

I agree, I just don't like it when people suggest eating healthy is expensive. It's really not, and if you meal prep you can make meals for a whole week in about an hour.

On this we completely agree. It's FAR CHEAPER to eat healthily.