Simmons: Yes or No?

[dhackett1565]

This board hasn't been this polarized around a player in a long time and I'm interested to know what the prevailing opinion is. So here's the question:

If we could trade for Simmons - and by this i mean a reasonable trade that most people would say is a fair deal for both sides, whatever that is - would you want Masai to make that deal? Would you want Simmons on this team if we could get him for say one of our best players and filler? Yes or no?

The poll is misleading, I'd be very interested in adding Simmons, but I would not trade any of our core (Siakam, FVV, OG, Barnes) to do so. So I chose "no."

But a deal around some combination of Dragic, Trent, Boucher, lesser prospects, futures? Sure.

[ash_k]

This board hasn't been this polarized around a player in a long time and I'm interested to know what the prevailing opinion is. So here's the question:

If we could trade for Simmons - and by this i mean a reasonable trade that most people would say is a fair deal for both sides, whatever that is - would you want Masai to make that deal? Would you want Simmons on this team if we could get him for say one of our best players and filler? Yes or no?

The poll is misleading, I'd be very interested in adding Simmons, but I would not trade any of our core (Siakam, FVV, OG, Barnes) to do so. So I chose "no."

But a deal around some combination of Dragic, Trent, Boucher, lesser prospects, futures? Sure.

you joined in 2008, since when a player of Simmons caliber (notice all those 2021s)
3× NBA All-Star (2019–2021)|All-NBA Third Team (2020)|2× NBA All-Defensive First Team (2020, 2021)|2nd DPOY(2021)....
can be attained with players like Dragic, Trent(cannot be traded until Dec), Boucher, lesser prospects, futures. Cmon.

Either FVV or Siakam would have to be involved, but everything should point to the former.

[dhackett1565]

This board hasn't been this polarized around a player in a long time and I'm interested to know what the prevailing opinion is. So here's the question:

If we could trade for Simmons - and by this i mean a reasonable trade that most people would say is a fair deal for both sides, whatever that is - would you want Masai to make that deal? Would you want Simmons on this team if we could get him for say one of our best players and filler? Yes or no?

The poll is misleading, I'd be very interested in adding Simmons, but I would not trade any of our core (Siakam, FVV, OG, Barnes) to do so. So I chose "no."

But a deal around some combination of Dragic, Trent, Boucher, lesser prospects, futures? Sure.

you joined in 2008, since when a player of Simmons caliber (notice all those 2021s)
3× NBA All-Star (2019–2021)|All-NBA Third Team (2020)|2× NBA All-Defensive First Team (2020, 2021)|2nd DPOY(2021)....
can be attained with players like Dragic, Trent(cannot be traded until Dec), Boucher, lesser prospects, futures. Cmon.

Either FVV or Siakam would have to be involved, but everything should point to the former.

Err, I agree. Phily won't trade him for what the Raps would trade. But no, they should not trade a core piece for Simmons.

But I just wanted to be clear that my "no" vote wasn't to do with Simmons being terrible, as the poll misleadingly implies - he's very good and I'd love to add him to this core. But swapping him out for a member of the current core is a lateral move IMO and is not worth the risk.

[ash_k]

The poll is misleading, I'd be very interested in adding Simmons, but I would not trade any of our core (Siakam, FVV, OG, Barnes) to do so. So I chose "no."

But a deal around some combination of Dragic, Trent, Boucher, lesser prospects, futures? Sure.

you joined in 2008, since when a player of Simmons caliber (notice all those 2021s)
3× NBA All-Star (2019–2021)|All-NBA Third Team (2020)|2× NBA All-Defensive First Team (2020, 2021)|2nd DPOY(2021)....
can be attained with players like Dragic, Trent(cannot be traded until Dec), Boucher, lesser prospects, futures. Cmon.

Either FVV or Siakam would have to be involved, but everything should point to the former.

Err, I agree. Phily won't trade him for what the Raps would trade. But no, they should not trade a core piece for Simmons.

But I just wanted to be clear that my "no" vote wasn't to do with Simmons being terrible, as the poll misleadingly implies - he's very good and I'd love to add him to this core. But swapping him out for a member of the current core is a lateral move IMO and is not worth the risk.

I am a huge fan on FVV, but can you really call trading him for a Ben Simmons/triple-double threat/DPOY a lateral move? really?
Please see the 2021s accolades again and the 2020s as well All-NBA Third Team (2020) and NBA steals leader (2020).
A lateral move?

[sidsid]

But there's like a handful of guys who can do this. Next thing down the ladder is the OGs of the league, which is more attainable.

Sorry, where is Ben in here? We've already established he's not Draymond as a paint presence/small ball 5. He's not AD, for similar reasons (although AD doesn't like to play the 5 either, and he's not that mobile on the perimeter, as we've seen Siakam chew him up for years now).

If he's in OG's range, then yeah, those skills are attainable and not at all the most valuable defensive traits. Teams load up on switchy/athletic wings, and they do that because they know it's a surplus skill that can be acquired for cheap. Ben's valuable skill isn't his defense, but that he's a 6"10 point guard. It's unfortunately undermined by his inability to shoot and score at high volume. This makes him not that valuable in my mind. Dribble penetration is good if you have it, but it's not necessary to generate good offense nowadays. And likewise stopping the ball on the perimeter is less important than deterring traffic in the paint and providing top notch help defense.

I was agreeing with you that the C position remains by far the most important part of defense. It's just that the demands are so daunting now that only a handful of superstars create those big advantages in this era while the rest of the league makes due with barely functional half measures. Paying 20M for guys who have maybe three skills put together and liabilities everywhere else.

For the same reason that it's hard for Cs to play today - having to guard the entire floor - that's why the prototypical SF is thriving. Ben, like our other wings, isn't suited to play C for any sustained amount of time. But elite playoff offenses will force teams centers to run out on shooters, or be switched on a island with a perimeter player, etc.

Who is more suited to:
- switch and box out a C
- contest the diving C on the switch, or from the weak side on a pnr lob attempt
- rotate to contest a layup attempt from Paul George at the rim on a long possession
- grab a no-boxout 50/50 ball in the paint against Lebron
- force Kawhi to relocate on a 3pta runout

That's just the individual stuff, before getting to what defensive strategies you can try when all 5 players can do this to varying degrees on the court. That's the advantage. And almost no teams (the Clippers have a shot at this this year) have the talent to actually do it. Sure, you can find Stanley Johnsons all over the place, but they're not playing much deep in the playoffs, same as heat check guards. The OGs are, and they're an indispensable 40 minutes locked in with a pretty low skill floor.

Now Ben, like DeRozan, is still so flawed right now that you can't play him in the 4th. But his non-shooting offensive skills are something we can only dream of Barnes reaching, while we teach Barnes how to shoot. I'd trade for Ben just to teach him FTs (at that point elite handles/playmaking pays off because you're not afraid of the rim anymore). Yeah, it would still be harder to build around, but you immediately have a better trade asset once it happens even if you want to go another direction. You're trading for a chance to develop a higher ceiling.

[Raps in 4]

But there's like a handful of guys who can do this. Next thing down the ladder is the OGs of the league, which is more attainable.

Sorry, where is Ben in here? We've already established he's not Draymond as a paint presence/small ball 5. He's not AD, for similar reasons (although AD doesn't like to play the 5 either, and he's not that mobile on the perimeter, as we've seen Siakam chew him up for years now).

If he's in OG's range, then yeah, those skills are attainable and not at all the most valuable defensive traits. Teams load up on switchy/athletic wings, and they do that because they know it's a surplus skill that can be acquired for cheap. Ben's valuable skill isn't his defense, but that he's a 6"10 point guard. It's unfortunately undermined by his inability to shoot and score at high volume. This makes him not that valuable in my mind. Dribble penetration is good if you have it, but it's not necessary to generate good offense nowadays. And likewise stopping the ball on the perimeter is less important than deterring traffic in the paint and providing top notch help defense.

I was agreeing with you that the C position remains by far the most important part of defense. It's just that the demands are so daunting now that only a handful of superstars create those big advantages in this era while the rest of the league makes due with barely functional half measures. Paying 20M for guys who have maybe three skills put together and liabilities everywhere else.

For the same reason that it's hard for Cs to play today - having to guard the entire floor - that's why the prototypical SF is thriving. Ben, like our other wings, isn't suited to play C for any sustained amount of time. But elite playoff offenses will force teams centers to run out on shooters, or be switched on a island with a perimeter player, etc.

Who is more suited to:
- switch and box out a C
- contest the diving C on the switch, or from the weak side on a pnr lob attempt
- rotate to contest a layup attempt from Paul George at the rim on a long possession
- grab a no-boxout 50/50 ball in the paint against Lebron
- force Kawhi to relocate on a 3pta runout

That's just the individual stuff, before getting to what defensive strategies you can try when all 5 players can do this to varying degrees on the court. That's the advantage. And almost no teams (the Clippers have a shot at this this year) have the talent to actually do it. Sure, you can find Stanley Johnsons all over the place, but they're not playing much deep in the playoffs, same as heat check guards. The OGs are, and they're an indispensable 40 minutes locked in with a pretty low skill floor.

Now Ben, like DeRozan, is still so flawed right now that you can't play him in the 4th. But his non-shooting offensive skills are something we can only dream of Barnes reaching, while we teach Barnes how to shoot. I'd trade for Ben just to teach him FTs (at that point elite handles/playmaking pays off because you're not afraid of the rim anymore). Yeah, it would still be harder to build around, but you immediately have a better trade asset once it happens even if you want to go another direction. You're trading for a chance to develop a higher ceiling.

Ben is 25 though, and signed to a max contract. He's close to a finished product. You're trading for the player he is now.

[Raps in 4]

you joined in 2008, since when a player of Simmons caliber (notice all those 2021s)
3× NBA All-Star (2019–2021)|All-NBA Third Team (2020)|2× NBA All-Defensive First Team (2020, 2021)|2nd DPOY(2021)....
can be attained with players like Dragic, Trent(cannot be traded until Dec), Boucher, lesser prospects, futures. Cmon.

Either FVV or Siakam would have to be involved, but everything should point to the former.

Err, I agree. Phily won't trade him for what the Raps would trade. But no, they should not trade a core piece for Simmons.

But I just wanted to be clear that my "no" vote wasn't to do with Simmons being terrible, as the poll misleadingly implies - he's very good and I'd love to add him to this core. But swapping him out for a member of the current core is a lateral move IMO and is not worth the risk.

I am a huge fan on FVV, but can you really call trading him for a Ben Simmons/triple-double threat/DPOY a lateral move? really?
Please see the 2021s accolades again and the 2020s as well All-NBA Third Team (2020) and NBA steals leader (2020).
A lateral move?

FVV has a ring. Ben Simmons has yet to reach a conference finals and routinely gets played off the court in the playoffs.

FVV has his flaws too (he's not a good shot creator and struggles against longer defenders due to his size), but at least he can hit an open shot when we need him to.

[ash_k]

Err, I agree. Phily won't trade him for what the Raps would trade. But no, they should not trade a core piece for Simmons.

But I just wanted to be clear that my "no" vote wasn't to do with Simmons being terrible, as the poll misleadingly implies - he's very good and I'd love to add him to this core. But swapping him out for a member of the current core is a lateral move IMO and is not worth the risk.

I am a huge fan on FVV, but can you really call trading him for a Ben Simmons/triple-double threat/DPOY a lateral move? really?
Please see the 2021s accolades again and the 2020s as well All-NBA Third Team (2020) and NBA steals leader (2020).
A lateral move?

FVV has a ring. Ben Simmons has yet to reach a conference finals and routinely gets played off the court in the playoffs.

FVV has his flaws too (he's not a good shot creator and struggles against longer defenders due to his size), but at least he can hit an open shot when we need him to.

Routinely?! Please use facts: The last 2 seasons, Ben played two playoffs series(1-1) and both were in 2021.
Without him, in 2020, the Sixers with Embiid and Harris got swept.
The year of that ring , FVV did 2ppg |12.9 FG% |3.6 3P% against those Sixers.
Thankfully, you have forgiven Fred.

[dhackett1565]

I am a huge fan on FVV, but can you really call trading him for a Ben Simmons/triple-double threat/DPOY a lateral move? really?
Please see the 2021s accolades again and the 2020s as well All-NBA Third Team (2020) and NBA steals leader (2020).
A lateral move?

FVV has a ring. Ben Simmons has yet to reach a conference finals and routinely gets played off the court in the playoffs.

FVV has his flaws too (he's not a good shot creator and struggles against longer defenders due to his size), but at least he can hit an open shot when we need him to.

Routinely?! Please use facts: The last 2 seasons, Ben played two playoffs series(1-1) and both were in 2021.
Without him, in 2020, the Sixers with Embiid and Harris got swept.
The year of that ring , FVV did 2ppg |12.9 FG% |3.6 3P% against those Sixers.
Thankfully, you have forgiven Fred.

This is not the question. The question is, where should the Raptors spend their asset capital to improve the team? If they can add a player of Simmons' quality to this core, that is worth spending their asset capital.

Spending it now to move from FVV to Simmons (worth noting that many impact stats had FVV as a measurably better player than Simmons last season) is, let's put it this way, too close to a lateral move to be worth making that the big swing this team makes. Leaving aside all the fit questions with this team already desperate for shooting...

[ATLTimekeeper]

I was agreeing with you that the C position remains by far the most important part of defense. It's just that the demands are so daunting now that only a handful of superstars create those big advantages in this era while the rest of the league makes due with barely functional half measures. Paying 20M for guys who have maybe three skills put together and liabilities everywhere else.

For the same reason that it's hard for Cs to play today - having to guard the entire floor - that's why the prototypical SF is thriving. Ben, like our other wings, isn't suited to play C for any sustained amount of time. But elite playoff offenses will force teams centers to run out on shooters, or be switched on a island with a perimeter player, etc.

Who is more suited to:
- switch and box out a C
- contest the diving C on the switch, or from the weak side on a pnr lob attempt
- rotate to contest a layup attempt from Paul George at the rim on a long possession
- grab a no-boxout 50/50 ball in the paint against Lebron
- force Kawhi to relocate on a 3pta runout

That's just the individual stuff, before getting to what defensive strategies you can try when all 5 players can do this to varying degrees on the court. That's the advantage. And almost no teams (the Clippers have a shot at this this year) have the talent to actually do it. Sure, you can find Stanley Johnsons all over the place, but they're not playing much deep in the playoffs, same as heat check guards. The OGs are, and they're an indispensable 40 minutes locked in with a pretty low skill floor.

Now Ben, like DeRozan, is still so flawed right now that you can't play him in the 4th. But his non-shooting offensive skills are something we can only dream of Barnes reaching, while we teach Barnes how to shoot. I'd trade for Ben just to teach him FTs (at that point elite handles/playmaking pays off because you're not afraid of the rim anymore). Yeah, it would still be harder to build around, but you immediately have a better trade asset once it happens even if you want to go another direction. You're trading for a chance to develop a higher ceiling.

Okay after reading this I think your mistake is that you seem to be conflating utility with value. Ben's defensive versatility isn't valuable, because Rondae Hollis-Jefferson can do what he does. A team can't have 5 Rondaes, but they also can't have 5 Ben Simmons. His value is as a point guard. Unfortunately, there's no evidence that a non-shooting point guard is capable of leading teams to deep playoff runs.

The next mistake here is that you seem think that the issue is that he's afraid of the rim, and that's largely situational but not at all born out by the statistics. He takes 7 FGAs within 5 feet, and that's excellent. And that doesn't really decrease significantly in the playoffs, either. The biggest issue is that he doesn't shoot, and you'll have to find a historical comp this century for a lead ballhandler that doesn't exist as a threat outside the paint. So, that makes him not very useful on offense.

[SaveTheHens]

People underrating Simmons defensive ability. He's a defensive superstar, what he does on offence is actually the weaker part of his game. Watch some Simmons defensive highlights & have them explain out what he does lol. Masai isn't into Simmons because he's a tall PG, but because he can help absolutely shut down other teams offence & would give us versatility on the defensive end to make our schemes work. That and maybe his character is strong enough that he does develop a jumper eventually. If Simmons is a motivated guy & Masai feels that about him, absolutely go for it, you can't teach those defensive instincts/size/athleticism, getting jumpers up at a decent rate may be possible if mentally he's up for it.

[ash_k]

Too many of y'all need to stop comparing players like it is NBA 2K/like you are almost using 2K ratings.
It is ridiculous to compare Rondae Hollis-Jefferson or Stanley Johnson to Ben Simmons "because they can defend very well too".
This is not NFL football, Bballers have to play both offense and defense everytime.

If both RHJ and SJ were consistently triple-double threat ,while being consistently great defenders, then they both would be considered generational talent as well.
In the last 20 years, there have only been 2 players with the ability to cover 1-through-4 +some 5 at DPOY level, while being a triple- double threat : LeBron James and Ben Simmons. That's it. That's generational talent for you.

Just like you need to stop comparing 5'11 FVV to 6'10 Ben using "metrics/analytics": Simmons is faster, quicker, better finisher and has much better court vision than FVV.
Ben scores 15 per game as a facilitator while FVV just averages 5 points more acting as a scorer.
Just imagine coach Nick Nurse having a talent like Ben in his hands. Scary hours!
Morey, just trade him already! All this is Embiid and Coach Rivers fault!

[ATLTimekeeper]

Too many of y'all need to stop comparing players like it is NBA 2K/like you are almost using 2K ratings.
It is ridiculous to compare Rondae Hollis-Jefferson or Stanley Johnson to Ben Simmons "because they can defend very well too".
This is not NFL football, Bballers have to play both offense and defense everytime.

If both RHJ and SJ were consistently triple-double threat ,while being consistently great defenders, then they both would be considered generational talent as well.
In the last 20 years, there have only been 2 players with the ability to cover 1-through-4 +some 5 at DPOY level, while being a triple- double threat : LeBron James and Ben Simmons. That's it. That's generational talent for you.

Draymond Green? C'mon, this isn't even remotely the argument.

We're comparing the value of individual traits, which is why Fred's 9 3PAs and Ben's 0 also have major implications on value.

After Vice Chairman just gushed about Fred on National Media, he's unlikely to be offered.

[Jadoogar]

This board hasn't been this polarized around a player in a long time and I'm interested to know what the prevailing opinion is. So here's the question:

If we could trade for Simmons - and by this i mean a reasonable trade that most people would say is a fair deal for both sides, whatever that is - would you want Masai to make that deal? Would you want Simmons on this team if we could get him for say one of our best players and filler? Yes or no?

I think the problem is that most people here don't understand what is a fair trade and neither does Morey. So... what's the point of trying.

Or maybe the problem is that nobody has any idea what a fair trade for Simmons is at this point.

To me anyway, despite his faults, and not even taking into account the possibility of him getting better, which I know is a big question mark but at least a possibility given our record in player development, I think a DPOY candidate who can give you 14/7/7 is an excellent guy to have on your team, so long as you don't expect him to do things he can't do, like score in the 4th or shoot 3s. I also think it's worth going all in on the non-positional long ultra-defensive team as a way of countering the superteam stuff. For sure it's a gamble but you can't win a title by playing it safe.

while there is a possibility of him getting better, i would say it's slim.
He has averaged basically the same names for all 4 seasons in the league. Aside from the stats, it's clear from the eye test that he has not improved at all (atleast on the offensive end).

[Parataxis]

This board hasn't been this polarized around a player in a long time and I'm interested to know what the prevailing opinion is. So here's the question:

If we could trade for Simmons - and by this i mean a reasonable trade that most people would say is a fair deal for both sides, whatever that is - would you want Masai to make that deal? Would you want Simmons on this team if we could get him for say one of our best players and filler? Yes or no?

I'd say yes, if it was a genuinely fair trade, but no if it's anything close to the 'pretend he's a superstar' trades that Philly has been asking for.

I don't see Philly coming down to a reasonable valuation, and I don't want the Raps to go up to an unreasonable one. So while it's a yes in theory, it's a no in practice.

[OakleyDokely]

Minny should give up Russell+picks for him if PHI is interested in that.

Towns and Simmons in the frontcourt with Edwards as your perimeter scoring threat is a good mix. Minny needs Simmons playmaking and defense a lot more than Russell's no defense volume shooting.

[realball]

Too many of y'all need to stop comparing players like it is NBA 2K/like you are almost using 2K ratings.
It is ridiculous to compare Rondae Hollis-Jefferson or Stanley Johnson to Ben Simmons "because they can defend very well too".
This is not NFL football, Bballers have to play both offense and defense everytime.

If both RHJ and SJ were consistently triple-double threat ,while being consistently great defenders, then they both would be considered generational talent as well.
In the last 20 years, there have only been 2 players with the ability to cover 1-through-4 +some 5 at DPOY level, while being a triple- double threat : LeBron James and Ben Simmons. That's it. That's generational talent for you.

Just like you need to stop comparing 5'11 FVV to 6'10 Ben using "metrics/analytics": Simmons is faster, quicker, better finisher and has much better court vision than FVV.
Ben scores 15 per game as a facilitator while FVV just averages 5 points more acting as a scorer.
Just imagine coach Nick Nurse having a talent like Ben in his hands. Scary hours!
Morey, just trade him already! All this is Embiid and Coach Rivers fault!

You know Simmons averages only half an assist more than Fred right?
FVV is also one of the best defenders in the game, and also a very good shooter. He's not the best passer in a half court offense, but neither is Simmons. All we would be doing by trading FVV for Simmons is destroying our spacing and taking on a bigger contract.

You shouldn't use triple doubles and All-Star selections as a metric to judge a player.

[OakleyDokely]

Too many of y'all need to stop comparing players like it is NBA 2K/like you are almost using 2K ratings.
It is ridiculous to compare Rondae Hollis-Jefferson or Stanley Johnson to Ben Simmons "because they can defend very well too".
This is not NFL football, Bballers have to play both offense and defense everytime.

If both RHJ and SJ were consistently triple-double threat ,while being consistently great defenders, then they both would be considered generational talent as well.
In the last 20 years, there have only been 2 players with the ability to cover 1-through-4 +some 5 at DPOY level, while being a triple- double threat : LeBron James and Ben Simmons. That's it. That's generational talent for you.

Just like you need to stop comparing 5'11 FVV to 6'10 Ben using "metrics/analytics": Simmons is faster, quicker, better finisher and has much better court vision than FVV.
Ben scores 15 per game as a facilitator while FVV just averages 5 points more acting as a scorer.
Just imagine coach Nick Nurse having a talent like Ben in his hands. Scary hours!
Morey, just trade him already! All this is Embiid and Coach Rivers fault!

You shouldn't use triple doubles and All-Star selections as a metric to judge a player.

If we did, Westbrook would be one of the greatest players of all-time

[ash_k]

Too many of y'all need to stop comparing players like it is NBA 2K/like you are almost using 2K ratings.
It is ridiculous to compare Rondae Hollis-Jefferson or Stanley Johnson to Ben Simmons "because they can defend very well too".
This is not NFL football, Bballers have to play both offense and defense everytime.

If both RHJ and SJ were consistently triple-double threat ,while being consistently great defenders, then they both would be considered generational talent as well.
In the last 20 years, there have only been 2 players with the ability to cover 1-through-4 +some 5 at DPOY level, while being a triple- double threat : LeBron James and Ben Simmons. That's it. That's generational talent for you.

Just like you need to stop comparing 5'11 FVV to 6'10 Ben using "metrics/analytics": Simmons is faster, quicker, better finisher and has much better court vision than FVV.
Ben scores 15 per game as a facilitator while FVV just averages 5 points more acting as a scorer.
Just imagine coach Nick Nurse having a talent like Ben in his hands. Scary hours!
Morey, just trade him already! All this is Embiid and Coach Rivers fault!

You shouldn't use triple doubles and All-Star selections as a metric to judge a player.

If we did, Westbrook would be one of the greatest players of all-time

TOP5 triple double 1.Russ(MVP) 2.Oscar 3.Magic(MVP) 4.Kidd 5.LeBron (MVP)

He is one of greatest of all-time. He would be top20 easily if he could combine those triple-double with DPOY-level defense(and a couple of rings). Ben will be up there with Kidd&Magic with triple-doubles. Only special players can do those: Doncic is well on his way as well.

Funny that any actual NBA follower could say "You shouldn't use triple doubles and All-Star selections as a metric to judge a player." maybe in the NHL, those kind of accolades (all-team and such) don't mean anything, but that is certainly not the case in the NBA. Same folks probably think that only scoring and the 3pt-shooting matter.

Only special players get multiple all-star appearances and multiple all-defensive teams.

MJ is not just the GOAT because of his offense:
DPOY(1988)|9× All-Defensive First Team (1988–1993, 1996–1998)|3× steals leader (1988, 1990, 1993)
Kobe is not just up there because of his offense:
9× All-Defensive First Team (2000, 2003, 2004, 2006–2011)|3× All-Defensive Second Team (2001, 2002, 2012)
LeBron James is not just up there because of his offense:
5× All-Defensive First Team (2009–2013)|NBA All-Defensive Second Team (2014)

[OakleyDokely]

You shouldn't use triple doubles and All-Star selections as a metric to judge a player.

If we did, Westbrook would be one of the greatest players of all-time

TOP5 triple double 1.Russ(MVP) 2.Oscar 3.Magic(MVP) 4.Kidd 5.LeBron (MVP)

He is one of greatest of all-time. He would be top20 easily if he could combine those triple-double with DPOY-level defense(and a couple of rings). Ben will be up there with Kidd&Magic with triple-doubles. Only special players can do those: Doncic is well on his way as well.

Funny that any actual NBA follower could say "You shouldn't use triple doubles and All-Star selections as a metric to judge a player." maybe in the NHL, those kind of accolades (all-team and such) don't mean anything, but that is certainly not the case in the NBA. Same folks probably think that only scoring and the 3pt-shooting matter.

Only special players get multiple all-star appearances and multiple all-defensive teams.

MJ is not just the GOAT because of his offense:
DPOY(1988)|9× All-Defensive First Team (1988–1993, 1996–1998)|3× steals leader (1988, 1990, 1993)
Kobe is not just up there because of his offense:
9× All-Defensive First Team (2000, 2003, 2004, 2006–2011)|3× All-Defensive Second Team (2001, 2002, 2012)
LeBron James is not just up there because of his offense:
5× All-Defensive First Team (2009–2013)|NBA All-Defensive Second Team (2014)

Nobody is saying he isn't useful, but the dude has huge offensive flaws which make it difficult to build around him, especially at his salary level.

It's useless to compare him to those all-time greats because he provides nowhere close the offensive impact those guys did.