Ben Simmons Containment Thread Take 3

[Lovetron Joe]

IMO Cleveland is only in this for leverage, and because Morey likes the idea of condemning Simmons to play there. Does anyone really think Morey likes Sexton and wants him? I sure don't. He's on the trade market (in CLEVELAND!!!) for a reason. Love is washed, so all they're actually getting for Simmons is Okoro who is a meh prospect. Even with his value tanked the 76ers can do better than that.

I have absolutely no idea what Simmons actually goes for, because the gap between what he's actually worth and what Morey is asking for is so huge is just feels unbridgeable unless Morey accepts less than half of what he wants. If he waits to the season to make a trade this could get really ugly for him. I get the temptation to wait, I would want the Spurs to wait in the same situation; but if I was the Spurs I wouldn't have been creating an environment where the coach and star player can mouth off about him, and then not defend him in the media, and have a front office that leaks so much that he knows you've been trying to trade him all-year, and then have every front office embarrass you by leaking your terrible offers because they were so bad they were offended them. Even the Spurs leaked how bad the offer was, and getting info out of them is usually tougher than getting blood out of a stone.

I just think Morey has no good options, and he's getting flack no matter what he does (and some of it rightly).

sexton, love are mainly fillers or test drives. if they dont work out, morey can easily dump both.
what they want are the 4 unprotected picks to trade for a future disgruntled superstar like simmons.
cavs absolutely need simmons after they committed to lauri and garland who needs elite defense and playmaking instead of empty stats sexton. cavs are predictable they are simply doing bpa just amassing talent regardless of position. yes they have million bigs but some of them will be removed after asset collection stage is over they will swap them for wings.

I question how easy it will be to dump Love's remaining $60,000,000. He is done. Worst contract in the NBA.

[JRoy]

Spoiler:

I've been turning this one over many times. I'm sure everyone will hate it - I know my OKC friends will. But I've gotta get it off my chest. We can haggle on the pick protections, but for OKC they would need to be light-to-unprotected. As in, no more than top 3 prot, with some combos of unprotected.

CLE sends: Love, 2022 FRP, 2024 FRP, 2028 FRP
CLE gets: Simmons
CLE why: get the young talent that they want without giving up a young player. They do take the risks of unprotected picks, but in theory they are a good team for a long time now. They also get rid of Love and shoot their shot at the playoffs. It's like spending 1 pick for Love and 2 picks for Simmons.

PHI sends: Simmons, 2023 FRP, 2027 FRP
PHI gets: SGA
PHI why: Some would argue Simmons and SGA are equal value, and they might be. The homer in me sees SGA as worth one pick more than Simmons. The second pick is because PHI has screwed themselves into a bad situation. SGA would be a godsend bail-out, and he definitely fits better with Embiid and is locked up for longer than Simmons.er]

OKC sends: SGA
OKC gets: Love, 2022 CLE, 2023 PHI, 2024 CLE, 2027 PHI, 2028 CLE
OKC why: SGA doesn't fit the master plan timeline. The main problem is that he makes OKC better this year. We need to be bad for this year +1. If we have bad lottery luck, it could be +2 or +3. Every +year that SGA is on the team, we are increasingly less likely to have lottery success. Getting CLE picks is as good as gold. That team is perpetually in the top 10 and it's worth taking a swing that they will be again. Getting 4 picks for SGA is a solid return. Eating Love's contract doesn't really matter if we're moving SGA.

I don’t think OKC is giving up SGA for Kevin Loves mummy and mediocre to bad picks.

Yeah, I can see why many wouldn't make the trade.

In defense of my thought process: I do think that at least one of those CLE picks will end up being good. Also, five FRP is nothing to scoff at. It's the PG/Harden+ package. More than Jrue. All for a player who I love, and I think he'll be an All Star, but he hasn't done it yet. Those guys were already All Stars when they were traded.

I also think OKC will struggle to find a premium asset for SGA. Teams drafting at the top won't want him (for the same reason OKC would be trading him).

I can see your point of view even if I don’t agree.

Why trade a foundational player for mediocre picks in the hope that you MIGHT be able to draft an equivalent player at some point in the future with those crappy picks.

[the_process]

Spoiler:

I've been turning this one over many times. I'm sure everyone will hate it - I know my OKC friends will. But I've gotta get it off my chest. We can haggle on the pick protections, but for OKC they would need to be light-to-unprotected. As in, no more than top 3 prot, with some combos of unprotected.

CLE sends: Love, 2022 FRP, 2024 FRP, 2028 FRP
CLE gets: Simmons
CLE why: get the young talent that they want without giving up a young player. They do take the risks of unprotected picks, but in theory they are a good team for a long time now. They also get rid of Love and shoot their shot at the playoffs. It's like spending 1 pick for Love and 2 picks for Simmons.

PHI sends: Simmons, 2023 FRP, 2027 FRP
PHI gets: SGA
PHI why: Some would argue Simmons and SGA are equal value, and they might be. The homer in me sees SGA as worth one pick more than Simmons. The second pick is because PHI has screwed themselves into a bad situation. SGA would be a godsend bail-out, and he definitely fits better with Embiid and is locked up for longer than Simmons.er]

OKC sends: SGA
OKC gets: Love, 2022 CLE, 2023 PHI, 2024 CLE, 2027 PHI, 2028 CLE
OKC why: SGA doesn't fit the master plan timeline. The main problem is that he makes OKC better this year. We need to be bad for this year +1. If we have bad lottery luck, it could be +2 or +3. Every +year that SGA is on the team, we are increasingly less likely to have lottery success. Getting CLE picks is as good as gold. That team is perpetually in the top 10 and it's worth taking a swing that they will be again. Getting 4 picks for SGA is a solid return. Eating Love's contract doesn't really matter if we're moving SGA.

I don’t think OKC is giving up SGA for Kevin Loves mummy and mediocre to bad picks.

Yeah, I can see why many wouldn't make the trade.

In defense of my thought process: I do think that at least one of those CLE picks will end up being good. Also, five FRP is nothing to scoff at. It's the PG/Harden+ package. More than Jrue. All for a player who I love, and I think he'll be an All Star, but he hasn't done it yet. Those guys were already All Stars when they were traded.

I also think OKC will struggle to find a premium asset for SGA. Teams drafting at the top won't want him (for the same reason OKC would be trading him).

Your trade is underselling the picks. CLE would have to send 4 picks (2 unprotected 2 top 4 protected) and 3 swaps to turn just Love into Simmons.

And just speaking for me, beyond the 23 and 27 1sts the Sixers could also unprotect the 25 1st they already owe OKC. That would be 6 1sts plus 3 swaps and a newly unprotected pick.

And I would bet more than one of those picks turns out to be good.

[toooskies]

So Cleveland's offseason only makes sense if they trade Mobley for Simmons.

Trading Prince for Rubio makes a little bit of sense outside of that framework. The Cavs needed a backup PG. But what they needed more? A Mediocre 6'7" SF who can shoot and defend at a league-average level, which is pretty much the definition of Prince. In theory there were a lot of guys on the FA market that fit that description and could've signed the MLE (Bullock, Porter, McDermott, Danny Green) but they landed in other places. Why not wait until after free agency to secure a backup PG?

Then they draft Mobley. He's the best player available on many boards, so it's not an awful pick. But he comes in as a 7-foot center, and the Cavs have Allen approaching restricted free agency. So maybe the plan is to play hardball with Allen and get him cheaply (possibly matching someone else's deal) or sign him short-term while Mobley catches up to speed with the NBA.

Then Allen signs on day 1 of free agency for 5y/$100m. I guess Mobley isn't going to play C for the Cavs anytime soon... And the Cavs have been criticized for not leveraging all their big guys into getting Allen back on a lower deal-- comparing this to Holmes, when the Cavs could've just started their C of the future instead if Allen walks? Nance/Love could've pinned down the 4 just fine.

Then... nothing. No SF free agency signing to fill the Cavs' biggest need to compete now. Bullock, Porter, McDermott, Snell, and a bunch of other guys sign elsewhere and the Cavs are sitting on their hands. It's easy to believe that this was because the Cavs are just a sad franchise with no luck, but maybe this was somewhat according to plan?

Larry Nance gets traded? Okay, sure-- Allen/Mobley/Love/Wade can handle all the minutes at the 4/5... But coming back isn't the league-average SF from Portland, it's actually a 7-footer. At least this one can shoot, even though it's not at the position we want? But again, Markkanen got pretty much the deal he was seeking at the beginning of free agency, not low-balled; Chicago got the picks they wanted, not low-balled. Why didn't Cleveland get more value here if Markkanen creates as many lineup headaches as he solves?

And so the Cavs have a lineup where they're starting at least 3 guys who don't stretch the floor: Okoro, Mobley, Allen. Or, they sit either their newly-signed $100m C or their future franchise untouchable draft pick for Markkanen. Or Mobley/Markkanen play the 3? Ugh, those are all bad options. And it's not like they can trade Markkanen/Allen, they just signed them!

So what if...

The Cavs have always had a deal on the table-- Mobley+Rubio+X for Simmons+Y, as a rough outline-- and they're just waiting for Rubio to be movable again to officially agree to it? (X could be as small as Windler or as big as Sexton + picks, and Y depends on X.)

The Rubio trade makes sense to get an important piece for PHI, a PG that you can start in place of Simmons. Rubio will be great in an offense with Embiid and a bunch of shooters around him.

Markkanen's and Allen's deals make sense as your long-term starting 4 and 5 with Mobley out of the picture. Love is still there but an injury risk, and Wade is a reasonable 4th big in case of injury.

Simmons replaces Okoro in the starting lineup. You swap out a bad-shooting plus defender for a non-shooting DPOY candidate who can run the whole offense. Okoro fills the backup wing spot, which is where he belongs until he develops on offense.

Philly takes Mobley mostly as a trade chip for the next superstar to become available. If Simmons is too toxic and slightly too old for a fresh rebuild, Mobley is a perfect asset to trade to Portland/Washington/whoever else is selling their superstar.

If the Simmons deal falls apart, the Cavs have at least accumulated assets and are no worse off than before.

[cjmcallist]

Yeah, I can see why many wouldn't make the trade.

In defense of my thought process: I do think that at least one of those CLE picks will end up being good. Also, five FRP is nothing to scoff at. It's the PG/Harden+ package. More than Jrue. All for a player who I love, and I think he'll be an All Star, but he hasn't done it yet. Those guys were already All Stars when they were traded.

I also think OKC will struggle to find a premium asset for SGA. Teams drafting at the top won't want him (for the same reason OKC would be trading him).

Your trade is underselling the picks. CLE would have to send 4 picks (2 unprotected 2 top 4 protected) and 3 swaps to turn just Love into Simmons.

And just speaking for me, beyond the 23 and 27 1sts the Sixers could also unprotect the 25 1st they already owe OKC. That would be 6 1sts plus 3 swaps and a newly unprotected pick.

And I would bet more than one of those picks turns out to be good.

I would most definitely make that trade for OKC. I know I'm in the minority though.

But, if other OKC posters can get on board with moving SGA, I think that's a win-win-win for all three teams.

[Wolveswin]

To Thunder: Bolmaro + 2x Wolves 2nds

To Raptors: Beverley + 2x Wolves 2nds

To 76ers: Dragic + Prince + K. Williams + 2022 Wolves 1st (top 3 protected) + 2024 Wolves 1st (top 8 protected) + 2023 Wolves 1st Swap + 2025 Wolves 1st Swap + 2025 76ers 1st (returned)

To Wolves: Simmons + 76ers Filler

76ers get win-now vets, 34M in expiring contract filler plus access to all their own 1sts and Wolves owed 1sts for future all-in consolidation trade (looking at Dame and Beal).

Beasley is out of the deal since 76ers will devalue him and Wolves youth doesn’t move the needle for them (enter OKC). Also assuming they like Dragic better than Beverley.

[wolves_89]

The Rubio trade makes sense to get an important piece for PHI, a PG that you can start in place of Simmons. Rubio will be great in an offense with Embiid and a bunch of shooters around him.

I think if the Sixers had any interest in Rubio, the Timberwolves would have never traded him.

[drosestruts]

Hoping Orlando says f-it and enters the Simmons sweepstakes.

Orlando in: Ben Simmons

Philly in: Jonathan Isaac, Terrance Ross, Cole Anthony, 2022 1st round pick, 2023 Chicago 1st round pick, 2024 1st round pick, 2025 Denver 1st round pick

That's 4 years of picks but only 2 years in which Orlando won't have a 1st.


Orlando:

Suggs/MCW
Harris/Fultz
Wagner/Hampton/Brazdeikis
Simmons/Okeke/
Bamba/Carter/Lopez

Orlando pretty much becomes all-star Ben Simmons surrounded by a bunch of 23 and under high potential players (Suggs, Fultz, Wagner, Bamba, Carter). Simmons' playmaking will help get the most out of the young players, and his defense is even better than Isaacs, and Simmons isn't injured all the time.


Philly:

Curry/Anthony/Milton
Green/Korkmaz/Maxey
Harris/Ross/Thybulle
Isaac/Niang/Reed
Embiid/Drummond

Philly gets a boat load of picks, and adds shooting (Ross), scoring (Anthony), and defense (Isaac) to bolster their current lineup.

[Malapropism]

The Lillard dream is dead.

[toooskies]

The Rubio trade makes sense to get an important piece for PHI, a PG that you can start in place of Simmons. Rubio will be great in an offense with Embiid and a bunch of shooters around him.

I think if the Sixers had any interest in Rubio, the Timberwolves would have never traded him.

I'm not saying the Timberwolves made a mistake, but they might have made a mistake. Philly should need a PG back, don't they?

[JRoy]

I don’t think OKC is giving up SGA for Kevin Loves mummy and mediocre to bad picks.

Yeah, I can see why many wouldn't make the trade.

In defense of my thought process: I do think that at least one of those CLE picks will end up being good. Also, five FRP is nothing to scoff at. It's the PG/Harden+ package. More than Jrue. All for a player who I love, and I think he'll be an All Star, but he hasn't done it yet. Those guys were already All Stars when they were traded.

I also think OKC will struggle to find a premium asset for SGA. Teams drafting at the top won't want him (for the same reason OKC would be trading him).

Your trade is underselling the picks. CLE would have to send 4 picks (2 unprotected 2 top 4 protected) and 3 swaps to turn just Love into Simmons.

And just speaking for me, beyond the 23 and 27 1sts the Sixers could also unprotect the 25 1st they already owe OKC. That would be 6 1sts plus 3 swaps and a newly unprotected pick.

And I would bet more than one of those picks turns out to be good.

Or OKC could keep the excellent young player they already have.

I would.

[jbk1234]

So Cleveland's offseason only makes sense if they trade Mobley for Simmons.

Trading Prince for Rubio makes a little bit of sense outside of that framework. The Cavs needed a backup PG. But what they needed more? A Mediocre 6'7" SF who can shoot and defend at a league-average level, which is pretty much the definition of Prince. In theory there were a lot of guys on the FA market that fit that description and could've signed the MLE (Bullock, Porter, McDermott, Danny Green) but they landed in other places. Why not wait until after free agency to secure a backup PG?

Then they draft Mobley. He's the best player available on many boards, so it's not an awful pick. But he comes in as a 7-foot center, and the Cavs have Allen approaching restricted free agency. So maybe the plan is to play hardball with Allen and get him cheaply (possibly matching someone else's deal) or sign him short-term while Mobley catches up to speed with the NBA.

Then Allen signs on day 1 of free agency for 5y/$100m. I guess Mobley isn't going to play C for the Cavs anytime soon... And the Cavs have been criticized for not leveraging all their big guys into getting Allen back on a lower deal-- comparing this to Holmes, when the Cavs could've just started their C of the future instead if Allen walks? Nance/Love could've pinned down the 4 just fine.

Then... nothing. No SF free agency signing to fill the Cavs' biggest need to compete now. Bullock, Porter, McDermott, Snell, and a bunch of other guys sign elsewhere and the Cavs are sitting on their hands. It's easy to believe that this was because the Cavs are just a sad franchise with no luck, but maybe this was somewhat according to plan?

Larry Nance gets traded? Okay, sure-- Allen/Mobley/Love/Wade can handle all the minutes at the 4/5... But coming back isn't the league-average SF from Portland, it's actually a 7-footer. At least this one can shoot, even though it's not at the position we want? But again, Markkanen got pretty much the deal he was seeking at the beginning of free agency, not low-balled; Chicago got the picks they wanted, not low-balled. Why didn't Cleveland get more value here if Markkanen creates as many lineup headaches as he solves?

And so the Cavs have a lineup where they're starting at least 3 guys who don't stretch the floor: Okoro, Mobley, Allen. Or, they sit either their newly-signed $100m C or their future franchise untouchable draft pick for Markkanen. Or Mobley/Markkanen play the 3? Ugh, those are all bad options. And it's not like they can trade Markkanen/Allen, they just signed them!

So what if...

The Cavs have always had a deal on the table-- Mobley+Rubio+X for Simmons+Y, as a rough outline-- and they're just waiting for Rubio to be movable again to officially agree to it? (X could be as small as Windler or as big as Sexton + picks, and Y depends on X.)

The Rubio trade makes sense to get an important piece for PHI, a PG that you can start in place of Simmons. Rubio will be great in an offense with Embiid and a bunch of shooters around him.

Markkanen's and Allen's deals make sense as your long-term starting 4 and 5 with Mobley out of the picture. Love is still there but an injury risk, and Wade is a reasonable 4th big in case of injury.

Simmons replaces Okoro in the starting lineup. You swap out a bad-shooting plus defender for a non-shooting DPOY candidate who can run the whole offense. Okoro fills the backup wing spot, which is where he belongs until he develops on offense.

Philly takes Mobley mostly as a trade chip for the next superstar to become available. If Simmons is too toxic and slightly too old for a fresh rebuild, Mobley is a perfect asset to trade to Portland/Washington/whoever else is selling their superstar.

If the Simmons deal falls apart, the Cavs have at least accumulated assets and are no worse off than before.

I'd bet everything I own that there was no grand trade-for-Ben plan here. We initially offered Sexton and Love. We're just getting the best players we can and worrying about fit later.

To the extent there's been a change, it's on the Sixers end as there are reports that talks have pretty much stalled on multiple fronts. Teams refused to put their best players on the table for Simmons, and once that impasse was reached, the talks discontinued.

Morey needs to get those talks going again with multiple teams in order to salvage the impending disaster. There's no good scenario where Simmons starts the season on the Sixers roster. Even if the organization can coax him into playing, that fanbase can be brutal. He'll get abused at home games. Things could easily get worse from Philly's perspective.

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[toooskies]

So Cleveland's offseason only makes sense if they trade Mobley for Simmons.

Trading Prince for Rubio makes a little bit of sense outside of that framework. The Cavs needed a backup PG. But what they needed more? A Mediocre 6'7" SF who can shoot and defend at a league-average level, which is pretty much the definition of Prince. In theory there were a lot of guys on the FA market that fit that description and could've signed the MLE (Bullock, Porter, McDermott, Danny Green) but they landed in other places. Why not wait until after free agency to secure a backup PG?

Then they draft Mobley. He's the best player available on many boards, so it's not an awful pick. But he comes in as a 7-foot center, and the Cavs have Allen approaching restricted free agency. So maybe the plan is to play hardball with Allen and get him cheaply (possibly matching someone else's deal) or sign him short-term while Mobley catches up to speed with the NBA.

Then Allen signs on day 1 of free agency for 5y/$100m. I guess Mobley isn't going to play C for the Cavs anytime soon... And the Cavs have been criticized for not leveraging all their big guys into getting Allen back on a lower deal-- comparing this to Holmes, when the Cavs could've just started their C of the future instead if Allen walks? Nance/Love could've pinned down the 4 just fine.

Then... nothing. No SF free agency signing to fill the Cavs' biggest need to compete now. Bullock, Porter, McDermott, Snell, and a bunch of other guys sign elsewhere and the Cavs are sitting on their hands. It's easy to believe that this was because the Cavs are just a sad franchise with no luck, but maybe this was somewhat according to plan?

Larry Nance gets traded? Okay, sure-- Allen/Mobley/Love/Wade can handle all the minutes at the 4/5... But coming back isn't the league-average SF from Portland, it's actually a 7-footer. At least this one can shoot, even though it's not at the position we want? But again, Markkanen got pretty much the deal he was seeking at the beginning of free agency, not low-balled; Chicago got the picks they wanted, not low-balled. Why didn't Cleveland get more value here if Markkanen creates as many lineup headaches as he solves?

And so the Cavs have a lineup where they're starting at least 3 guys who don't stretch the floor: Okoro, Mobley, Allen. Or, they sit either their newly-signed $100m C or their future franchise untouchable draft pick for Markkanen. Or Mobley/Markkanen play the 3? Ugh, those are all bad options. And it's not like they can trade Markkanen/Allen, they just signed them!

So what if...

The Cavs have always had a deal on the table-- Mobley+Rubio+X for Simmons+Y, as a rough outline-- and they're just waiting for Rubio to be movable again to officially agree to it? (X could be as small as Windler or as big as Sexton + picks, and Y depends on X.)

The Rubio trade makes sense to get an important piece for PHI, a PG that you can start in place of Simmons. Rubio will be great in an offense with Embiid and a bunch of shooters around him.

Markkanen's and Allen's deals make sense as your long-term starting 4 and 5 with Mobley out of the picture. Love is still there but an injury risk, and Wade is a reasonable 4th big in case of injury.

Simmons replaces Okoro in the starting lineup. You swap out a bad-shooting plus defender for a non-shooting DPOY candidate who can run the whole offense. Okoro fills the backup wing spot, which is where he belongs until he develops on offense.

Philly takes Mobley mostly as a trade chip for the next superstar to become available. If Simmons is too toxic and slightly too old for a fresh rebuild, Mobley is a perfect asset to trade to Portland/Washington/whoever else is selling their superstar.

If the Simmons deal falls apart, the Cavs have at least accumulated assets and are no worse off than before.

I'd bet everything I own that there was no grand trade-for-Ben plan here. We initially offered Sexton and Love. We're just getting the best players we can and worrying about fit later.

To the extent there's been a change, it's on the Sixers end as there are reports that talks have pretty much stalled on multiple fronts. Teams refused to put their best players on the table for Simmons, and once that impasse was reached, the talks discontinued.

Morey needs to get those talks going again with multiple teams in order to salvage the impending disaster. There's no good scenario where Simmons starts the season on the Sixers roster. Even if the organization can coax him into playing, that fanbase can be brutal. He'll get abused at home games. Things could easily get worse from Philly's perspective.

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Possibly. I'm just saying the roster is VERY prepared to not have Mobley on it, and I wouldn't say that about any other asset on the team.

[DWhiteMamba]

I mean, if the Cavs are foolishly tossing in a bunch of unprotected picks, sure. For Sexton? I doubt it. If Sexton is good why on earth is he on the market? Why would Cleveland, a team that overpays everyone and everything in the hope of just being respectable, be looking to trade him before he's due to be paid? I think the answer is pretty obvious.

He's on the market because the Cavs have Garland. This isn't difficult.

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Garland hasn't shown he's that great either. If Sexton was the player they claim to think he is, you keep him and pay him, then trade him later if you need to. At this point in their rebuild the Cavs can hardly worry about positional overlap. The word is that they can't trade him because nobody values him like they do.

[jbk1234]

So Cleveland's offseason only makes sense if they trade Mobley for Simmons.

Trading Prince for Rubio makes a little bit of sense outside of that framework. The Cavs needed a backup PG. But what they needed more? A Mediocre 6'7" SF who can shoot and defend at a league-average level, which is pretty much the definition of Prince. In theory there were a lot of guys on the FA market that fit that description and could've signed the MLE (Bullock, Porter, McDermott, Danny Green) but they landed in other places. Why not wait until after free agency to secure a backup PG?

Then they draft Mobley. He's the best player available on many boards, so it's not an awful pick. But he comes in as a 7-foot center, and the Cavs have Allen approaching restricted free agency. So maybe the plan is to play hardball with Allen and get him cheaply (possibly matching someone else's deal) or sign him short-term while Mobley catches up to speed with the NBA.

Then Allen signs on day 1 of free agency for 5y/$100m. I guess Mobley isn't going to play C for the Cavs anytime soon... And the Cavs have been criticized for not leveraging all their big guys into getting Allen back on a lower deal-- comparing this to Holmes, when the Cavs could've just started their C of the future instead if Allen walks? Nance/Love could've pinned down the 4 just fine.

Then... nothing. No SF free agency signing to fill the Cavs' biggest need to compete now. Bullock, Porter, McDermott, Snell, and a bunch of other guys sign elsewhere and the Cavs are sitting on their hands. It's easy to believe that this was because the Cavs are just a sad franchise with no luck, but maybe this was somewhat according to plan?

Larry Nance gets traded? Okay, sure-- Allen/Mobley/Love/Wade can handle all the minutes at the 4/5... But coming back isn't the league-average SF from Portland, it's actually a 7-footer. At least this one can shoot, even though it's not at the position we want? But again, Markkanen got pretty much the deal he was seeking at the beginning of free agency, not low-balled; Chicago got the picks they wanted, not low-balled. Why didn't Cleveland get more value here if Markkanen creates as many lineup headaches as he solves?

And so the Cavs have a lineup where they're starting at least 3 guys who don't stretch the floor: Okoro, Mobley, Allen. Or, they sit either their newly-signed $100m C or their future franchise untouchable draft pick for Markkanen. Or Mobley/Markkanen play the 3? Ugh, those are all bad options. And it's not like they can trade Markkanen/Allen, they just signed them!

So what if...

The Cavs have always had a deal on the table-- Mobley+Rubio+X for Simmons+Y, as a rough outline-- and they're just waiting for Rubio to be movable again to officially agree to it? (X could be as small as Windler or as big as Sexton + picks, and Y depends on X.)

The Rubio trade makes sense to get an important piece for PHI, a PG that you can start in place of Simmons. Rubio will be great in an offense with Embiid and a bunch of shooters around him.

Markkanen's and Allen's deals make sense as your long-term starting 4 and 5 with Mobley out of the picture. Love is still there but an injury risk, and Wade is a reasonable 4th big in case of injury.

Simmons replaces Okoro in the starting lineup. You swap out a bad-shooting plus defender for a non-shooting DPOY candidate who can run the whole offense. Okoro fills the backup wing spot, which is where he belongs until he develops on offense.

Philly takes Mobley mostly as a trade chip for the next superstar to become available. If Simmons is too toxic and slightly too old for a fresh rebuild, Mobley is a perfect asset to trade to Portland/Washington/whoever else is selling their superstar.

If the Simmons deal falls apart, the Cavs have at least accumulated assets and are no worse off than before.

I'd bet everything I own that there was no grand trade-for-Ben plan here. We initially offered Sexton and Love. We're just getting the best players we can and worrying about fit later.

To the extent there's been a change, it's on the Sixers end as there are reports that talks have pretty much stalled on multiple fronts. Teams refused to put their best players on the table for Simmons, and once that impasse was reached, the talks discontinued.

Morey needs to get those talks going again with multiple teams in order to salvage the impending disaster. There's no good scenario where Simmons starts the season on the Sixers roster. Even if the organization can coax him into playing, that fanbase can be brutal. He'll get abused at home games. Things could easily get worse from Philly's perspective.

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Possibly. I'm just saying the roster is VERY prepared to not have Mobley on it, and I wouldn't say that about any other asset on the team.

Well, they were hoping Love might seek a buyout. Allen, Lauri, and Mobley will be getting the lion's share of the minutes. Mobley can at least play away from the basket. I suspect the guys who are on borrowed time if we trade for Simmons, are Allen and Okoro unless his shot comes along this season.

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[jbk1234]

I mean, if the Cavs are foolishly tossing in a bunch of unprotected picks, sure. For Sexton? I doubt it. If Sexton is good why on earth is he on the market? Why would Cleveland, a team that overpays everyone and everything in the hope of just being respectable, be looking to trade him before he's due to be paid? I think the answer is pretty obvious.

He's on the market because the Cavs have Garland. This isn't difficult.

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Garland hasn't shown he's that great either. If Sexton was the player they claim to think he is, you keep him and pay him, then trade him later if you need to. At this point in their rebuild the Cavs can hardly worry about positional overlap. The word is that they can't trade him because nobody values him like they do.

Last season, Garland shot .395 from 3, averaged more than 17 ppg and 6 assists per game while playing on the worst 3 point shooting team in the NBA. He was only 20 years old. You don't know what you're talking about.

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[cavsfanatic]

So Cleveland's offseason only makes sense if they trade Mobley for Simmons.

Trading Prince for Rubio makes a little bit of sense outside of that framework. The Cavs needed a backup PG. But what they needed more? A Mediocre 6'7" SF who can shoot and defend at a league-average level, which is pretty much the definition of Prince. In theory there were a lot of guys on the FA market that fit that description and could've signed the MLE (Bullock, Porter, McDermott, Danny Green) but they landed in other places. Why not wait until after free agency to secure a backup PG?

Then they draft Mobley. He's the best player available on many boards, so it's not an awful pick. But he comes in as a 7-foot center, and the Cavs have Allen approaching restricted free agency. So maybe the plan is to play hardball with Allen and get him cheaply (possibly matching someone else's deal) or sign him short-term while Mobley catches up to speed with the NBA.

Then Allen signs on day 1 of free agency for 5y/$100m. I guess Mobley isn't going to play C for the Cavs anytime soon... And the Cavs have been criticized for not leveraging all their big guys into getting Allen back on a lower deal-- comparing this to Holmes, when the Cavs could've just started their C of the future instead if Allen walks? Nance/Love could've pinned down the 4 just fine.

Then... nothing. No SF free agency signing to fill the Cavs' biggest need to compete now. Bullock, Porter, McDermott, Snell, and a bunch of other guys sign elsewhere and the Cavs are sitting on their hands. It's easy to believe that this was because the Cavs are just a sad franchise with no luck, but maybe this was somewhat according to plan?

Larry Nance gets traded? Okay, sure-- Allen/Mobley/Love/Wade can handle all the minutes at the 4/5... But coming back isn't the league-average SF from Portland, it's actually a 7-footer. At least this one can shoot, even though it's not at the position we want? But again, Markkanen got pretty much the deal he was seeking at the beginning of free agency, not low-balled; Chicago got the picks they wanted, not low-balled. Why didn't Cleveland get more value here if Markkanen creates as many lineup headaches as he solves?

And so the Cavs have a lineup where they're starting at least 3 guys who don't stretch the floor: Okoro, Mobley, Allen. Or, they sit either their newly-signed $100m C or their future franchise untouchable draft pick for Markkanen. Or Mobley/Markkanen play the 3? Ugh, those are all bad options. And it's not like they can trade Markkanen/Allen, they just signed them!

So what if...

The Cavs have always had a deal on the table-- Mobley+Rubio+X for Simmons+Y, as a rough outline-- and they're just waiting for Rubio to be movable again to officially agree to it? (X could be as small as Windler or as big as Sexton + picks, and Y depends on X.)

The Rubio trade makes sense to get an important piece for PHI, a PG that you can start in place of Simmons. Rubio will be great in an offense with Embiid and a bunch of shooters around him.

Markkanen's and Allen's deals make sense as your long-term starting 4 and 5 with Mobley out of the picture. Love is still there but an injury risk, and Wade is a reasonable 4th big in case of injury.

Simmons replaces Okoro in the starting lineup. You swap out a bad-shooting plus defender for a non-shooting DPOY candidate who can run the whole offense. Okoro fills the backup wing spot, which is where he belongs until he develops on offense.

Philly takes Mobley mostly as a trade chip for the next superstar to become available. If Simmons is too toxic and slightly too old for a fresh rebuild, Mobley is a perfect asset to trade to Portland/Washington/whoever else is selling their superstar.

If the Simmons deal falls apart, the Cavs have at least accumulated assets and are no worse off than before.

That makes sense,,this makes sense to me,Mobley/Rubio/Sexton ...for Simmons and Maxey. Your post makes sense to me,,,kudos.

[DWhiteMamba]

He's on the market because the Cavs have Garland. This isn't difficult.

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Garland hasn't shown he's that great either. If Sexton was the player they claim to think he is, you keep him and pay him, then trade him later if you need to. At this point in their rebuild the Cavs can hardly worry about positional overlap. The word is that they can't trade him because nobody values him like they do.

Last season, Garland shot .395 from 3, averaged more than 17 ppg and 6 assists per game while playing on the worst 3 point shooting team in the NBA. He was only 20 years old. You don't know what you're talking about.

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On a bad team playing mostly uncompetetive games. I'm not saying he won't be good, I'm saying he's got to prove it more before people see him as a guy you want running your offense as a starter. We'll see. If you're right you can tell people after you knew all along, but it's early days right now.

[wolves_89]

The Rubio trade makes sense to get an important piece for PHI, a PG that you can start in place of Simmons. Rubio will be great in an offense with Embiid and a bunch of shooters around him.

I think if the Sixers had any interest in Rubio, the Timberwolves would have never traded him.

I'm not saying the Timberwolves made a mistake, but they might have made a mistake. Philly should need a PG back, don't they?

I strongly suspect that the Wolves and Sixers discussed trades involving Rubio. If Philly had shown any indication he would be a valued part of a trade package there is no way Rosas would have moved him (since the Wolves whole off-season seems to be centered around positioning themselves for a Simmons trade). I'll be more than a little surprised if Rubio ends up with the Sixers.

[clippertown]

It takes two to tangle. What team can use a guy like Simmons? Not that many, imo. I'm not saying he's not talented because he is, but he is so unique that not every team can just fit him into the lineup. Plus, the asking price is way too high.

.

The question is whether any team will take the massive gamble on him. Plenty of teams could use Simmons, but not in a way that justifies the price and he makes $33M. He is a top player as a point guard and an average player in every other position. No teams need a point guard except for the Clippers, and even then they have Bledsoe. Ben lives in LA and dates LA women. He wants to play in LA and not for the Lakers. Eventually, Philly will understand the futile situation and they will give into his demands.

Philly’s asking price is fair for the talent level, but no team will sign Ben without talking to him first. None.

Why would a team need to sign Ben?

My point is that Ben would be signed to a different team and that team will want to talk with him first before any trade happens. Very few teams will trade or sign for a player that openly does not want to be there, regardless of their contract status.