[Project:Primes of the top 10 ever] List the top 12 seasons between Hakeem Olajuwon vs. Larry Bird

[Odinn21]

Hello.

Link to the project idea thread.

The project will contain 1v1 comparisons between the top 10 ever in the latest 3 top 100 project on RealGM which are LeBron James, Michael Jordan, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Bill Russell, Tim Duncan, Wilt Chamberlain, Magic Johnson, Shaquille O'Neal, Hakeem Olajuwon and Larry Bird.
There are 45 possibilities of 2 in 10, the project will have 90 days period to be concluded.

Things to follow;
- Reg. season and postseason play, both are included in evaluations.
- A simple 12/11/.../2/1 point system will be used for the project.
Evaluations will be based on the seasons, not the players direclty as an outcome of a single vote.
- Explanations are needed, even in short forms. (Though for a project like this, I'd appreciate long posts personally. Saying this as a voter, not the commissioner.)
- The time frame for each franchise is 2 days (from/to 10:00 EST).

Results on Google Sheets

The comparison order we'll be following;

Spoiler:

1. Bill Russell vs. Magic Johnson
2. Hakeem Olajuwon vs. Larry Bird
3. Michael Jordan vs. Wilt Chamberlain
4. LeBron James vs. Tim Duncan
5. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar vs. Shaquille O'Neal

6. LeBron James vs. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
7. Michael Jordan vs. Hakeem Olajuwon
8. Shaquille O'Neal vs. Larry Bird
9. Tim Duncan vs. Magic Johnson
10. Bill Russell vs. Wilt Chamberlain

11. Michael Jordan vs. Larry Bird
12. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar vs. Hakeem Olajuwon
13. LeBron James vs. Bill Russell
14. Tim Duncan vs. Wilt Chamberlain
15. Magic Johnson vs. Shaquille O'Neal

16. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar vs. Bill Russell
17. Shaquille O'Neal vs. Hakeem Olajuwon
18. Magic Johnson vs. Larry Bird
19. LeBron James vs. Wilt Chamberlain
20. Michael Jordan vs. Tim Duncan

21. LeBron James vs. Michael Jordan
22. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar vs. Wilt Chamberlain
23. Tim Duncan vs. Larry Bird
24. Bill Russell vs. Shaquille O'Neal
25. Magic Johnson vs. Hakeem Olajuwon

26. LeBron James vs. Larry Bird
27. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar vs. Magic Johnson
28. Michael Jordan vs. Shaquille O'Neal
29. Bill Russell vs. Tim Duncan
30. Wilt Chamberlain vs. Hakeem Olajuwon

31. Wilt Chamberlain vs. Shaquille O'Neal
32. LeBron James vs. Hakeem Olajuwon
33. Bill Russell vs. Larry Bird
34. Michael Jordan vs. Magic Johnson
35. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar vs. Tim Duncan

36. Wilt Chamberlain vs. Larry Bird
37. Tim Duncan vs. Shaquille O'Neal
38. Bill Russell vs. Hakeem Olajuwon
39. LeBron James vs. Magic Johnson
40. Michael Jordan vs. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

41. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar vs. Larry Bird
42. LeBron James vs. Shaquille O'Neal
43. Wilt Chamberlain vs. Magic Johnson
44. Tim Duncan vs. Hakeem Olajuwon
45. Michael Jordan vs. Bill Russell

---

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[Odinn21]

For me, this is going be an absolute scorcher.

I think I'll have Olajuwon at the top but Bird's prime being like a plateau will give him a proper chance. I'm not settled on any ranking yet but I'm kind of expecting a closer race than Russell vs. Magic in this one.

[No-more-rings]

1. 94 Hakeem- This year his offense and defense finally came together, dominated on both ends on his way to a title, with mediocre support. Comparable to Duncan's 03 "carry job".

2. 93 Hakeem- Comparable year, not really any worse than 94

3. 95 Hakeem- Hakeem's offensive peak for sure, he seemed to peak as a passer this year, however he took a step back defensively, and I think that defensive decline furthered the following year and that's a big reason for 96 not making this list

4. 86 Bird- Bird's best all around season plain and simple, offense very resilient in every playoff round and still is almost at his defensive peak

5. 87 Bird- Not much drop off from 86, bit worse on defense, bit worse in the postseason too though

6. 84 Bird- Bird's best playoff run, probably his defensive peak

7. 90 Hakeem- Hakeem's defensive peak for sure, not the offensive player he was in 93-95 so falls down some, his poor shooting in the playoffs likely just due to small sample size/fluke

8. 85 Bird- Middle of his mvp years, broke his band in a bar fight, didn't shoot as well in the playoffs, but still plenty of impact

9. 89 Hakeem- Hakeem in these years just had an insane motor especially on defense, this season can't be much worse than 1990

10. 88 Bird- At least statistically, this appears to be Bird's best offensive year but his defense continued declining to the point where he was likely a negative on that end, and If i recall this is the year where injuries started becoming a problem too

11. 88 Hakeem- Small sample, but I think this year has to make the list for his insane series against the Mavs who were not a scrub team, nearly 38/17 on 64 ts% and a 39 PER is insane stuff. Fluke or not, you can't name too many players who had a 1st round series like that against a better team.

12. 83 Bird- One the seasons has to fill this spot

[sansterre]

Okay, I'm open to feedback here.

So we don't have impact metrics for Bird, so I'm basically using 1/3 Win Shares, 2/3 BPM. I weighted regular season and playoff performance for each season equally. For playoffs I converted their WS or VORP into a per game number (based on their team's number of games, to account for injury) and multiplied by 82. For Hakeem's 4-game playoff appearances I smoothed those numbers to reduce outliers.

Here's what I got:

I've edited my rankings, so the spoilered entries are for posterity only.

Spoiler:

1. '86 Bird
2. '84 Bird
3. '93 Hakeem
4. '94 Hakeem
5. '88 Bird
6. '87 Bird
7. '85 Bird
8. '88 Hakeem
9. '87 Hakeem
10. '81 Bird
11. '89 Hakeem
12. '83 Bird

I was really, really, really surprised by Bird coming out so high. I re-ran it without Win Shares on account of Hakeem's teams losing a lot more, but the results were pretty much unchanged.

Don't get me wrong, in an overall career value contest Hakeem would still bury Bird on account of longevity. But in peak . . . I was surprised to see Bird do this well.

Is it possible that Win Shares and VORP both underrate Hakeem's defensive value? That seems weird; Hakeem does have 4 of the top 6 DWS numbers from '86 to '95. I will say that DBPM seems to underrate him some, with only 3 of the top 7 DPBM numbers in that span. But I'm also sure that Bird's passing and off-ball defense are somewhat underrated here (obviously not as big a component as Hakeem's defense, but still).

In other words . . . I'm not actually ready to call these rankings wrong, or at least, wrong by enough to reject them outright. But I'd certainly appreciate thoughts on the matter.

[Odinn21]

...

I'd like to see 2 more things in post like these;
- Please put the numbers in your rankings. When I start tracking them, not having those 1./2./3. numbers is making it harder for me.
- Also, please provide some explanations about your rankings as well. I appreciate the comments about why snubbed ones were snubbed but essentially, not talking about within the rankings voted on is pretty similar to just posting the seasons without saying anything further.

[Dutchball97]

My initial thought is that the top 5 seasons will be 93, 94, 95 Hakeem along with 84 and 86 Bird in some order but after that it could go a lot of different ways.

[No-more-rings]

...

I'd like to see 2 more things in post like these;
- Please put the numbers in your rankings. When I start tracking them, not having those 1./2./3. numbers is making it harder for me.
- Also, please provide some explanations about your rankings as well. I appreciate the comments about why snubbed ones were snubbed but essentially, not talking about within the rankings voted on is pretty similar to just posting the seasons without saying anything further.

I'm not committing to being a participant in the project necessarily, I just wanted to give my 2 cents. It's a fun idea, but I can't guarantee I will post in every thread, or give a good explanation. I might go back and add some in since I feel pretty strongly Hakeem has a few seasons better than peak Bird.

[DQuinn1575]

Okay, I'm open to feedback here.

So we don't have impact metrics for Bird, so I'm basically using 1/3 Win Shares, 2/3 BPM. I weighted regular season and playoff performance for each season equally. For playoffs I converted their WS or VORP into a per game number (based on their team's number of games, to account for injury) and multiplied by 82. For Hakeem's 4-game playoff appearances I smoothed those numbers to reduce outliers.

Here's what I got:

1. '86 Bird
2. '84 Bird
3. '93 Hakeem
4. '94 Hakeem
5. '88 Bird
6. '87 Bird
7. '85 Bird
8. '88 Hakeem
9. '87 Hakeem
10. '81 Bird
11. '89 Hakeem
12. '83 Bird

I was really, really, really surprised by Bird coming out so high. I re-ran it without Win Shares on account of Hakeem's teams losing a lot more, but the results were pretty much unchanged.

Don't get me wrong, in an overall career value contest Hakeem would still bury Bird on account of longevity. But in peak . . . I was surprised to see Bird do this well.

Is it possible that Win Shares and VORP both underrate Hakeem's defensive value? That seems weird; Hakeem does have 4 of the top 6 DWS numbers from '86 to '95. I will say that DBPM seems to underrate him some, with only 3 of the top 7 DPBM numbers in that span. But I'm also sure that Bird's passing and off-ball defense are somewhat underrated here (obviously not as big a component as Hakeem's defense, but still).

In other words . . . I'm not actually ready to call these rankings wrong, or at least, wrong by enough to reject them outright. But I'd certainly appreciate thoughts on the matter.

Okay, you have 1987 has the 4th best Bird year and 4th best Hakeem year. So kind of apples to apples to compare, and in the same season.
Hakeem is all-defense, and definitely one of the best defenders in the league - I feel okay calling Bird at least an average defender, he was great on help side, but nowhere near Hakeem's class.

But per 100 possession are
Bird 33.6/11.0/9.2 TS+ 114 TS Add 250.2
Hakeem 30.6/14.9/3.8 TS+103 TS Add 52.3

So Bird is scoring better on much better efficiency - his true shooting add is 200 points more than Hakeem.
And is passing is 6.4 per 100 possessions better - it was 4.7 assists per game with very little increase in turnovers.

So you have 2.5 points a game and 5 assists a game versus maybe 3-4 point defense impact?

My edge definitely will go to Bird here, and the people at the time agreed - everyone will say bias, but Bird was 3rd in mvp voting, vs Hakeem who finished 7th - and it was 271 points vs 28 in the voting.

[SNPA]

Okay, I'm open to feedback here.

So we don't have impact metrics for Bird, so I'm basically using 1/3 Win Shares, 2/3 BPM. I weighted regular season and playoff performance for each season equally. For playoffs I converted their WS or VORP into a per game number (based on their team's number of games, to account for injury) and multiplied by 82. For Hakeem's 4-game playoff appearances I smoothed those numbers to reduce outliers.

Here's what I got:

1. '86 Bird
2. '84 Bird
3. '93 Hakeem
4. '94 Hakeem
5. '88 Bird
6. '87 Bird
7. '85 Bird
8. '88 Hakeem
9. '87 Hakeem
10. '81 Bird
11. '89 Hakeem
12. '83 Bird

I was really, really, really surprised by Bird coming out so high. I re-ran it without Win Shares on account of Hakeem's teams losing a lot more, but the results were pretty much unchanged.

Don't get me wrong, in an overall career value contest Hakeem would still bury Bird on account of longevity. But in peak . . . I was surprised to see Bird do this well.

Is it possible that Win Shares and VORP both underrate Hakeem's defensive value? That seems weird; Hakeem does have 4 of the top 6 DWS numbers from '86 to '95. I will say that DBPM seems to underrate him some, with only 3 of the top 7 DPBM numbers in that span. But I'm also sure that Bird's passing and off-ball defense are somewhat underrated here (obviously not as big a component as Hakeem's defense, but still).

In other words . . . I'm not actually ready to call these rankings wrong, or at least, wrong by enough to reject them outright. But I'd certainly appreciate thoughts on the matter.

Reads like you want the numbers to say Hakeem and are looking for a way to do that, but if you can’t get them to you are considering rejecting the numbers. That’s fine, it’s how most people use stats but it’s anything but objective, which is also fine. Greatness can’t be quantified.

[sansterre]

Reads like you want the numbers to say Hakeem and are looking for a way to do that, but if you can’t get them to you are considering rejecting the numbers. That’s fine, it’s how most people use stats but it’s anything but objective, which is also fine. Greatness can’t be quantified.

I think you have misunderstood me, no doubt because of my poor communication.

This is just a wad of numbers I threw against the wall. They're objective but not perfect. I can certainly defend them, but I have no delusions that they are correct purely because they're objective. The consensus (it seems) is that Hakeem's peak is higher than Bird's peak. My findings (for whatever it's worth) contradict that.

I'm just giving an opening to anyone who can throw data at me saying "Hakeem's impact was actually x amount better than WS/VORP shows", in which case I'd make changes.

Posting the results of study and saying "This is what I got, please contradict this if you can show better data" is actually the basis for most objective study. I *always* want to leave the door open for people to improve my understanding of things. The danger of using a formula is it implicitly closes that door, so I tend to signal loudly for contradiction.

[sansterre]

Interestingly, the shutupandjam numbers referenced in the prior thread like Hakeem a little better, but don't think his defense was more than 2 points better than Bird's.

'84 Bird: 17.8 RS Wins, +6.1 PO Impact
'86 Bird: 20.3 RS Wins, +7.1 PO Impact
'93 Hakeem: 21.7 RS Wins, +6.8 PO Impact
'94 Hakeem: 19.6 RS Wins, +6.2 PO Impact

[sansterre]

The Estimated Impact numbers seem to be a good counterweight, so the balance is now 1 part WS, 2 parts VORP and 3 parts EI.

1. '86 Bird
2. '93 Hakeem
3. '94 Hakeem
4. '84 Bird
5. '88 Bird
6. '87 Bird
7. '85 Bird
8. '88 Hakeem
9. '87 Hakeem
10. '89 Hakeem
11. '81 Bird
12. '97 Hakeem

This is my official new ranking.

[Odinn21]

The Estimated Impact numbers seem to be a good counterweight, so the balance is now 1 part WS, 2 parts VORP and 3 parts EI.

1. '86 Bird
2. '93 Hakeem
3. '94 Hakeem
4. '84 Bird
5. '88 Bird
6. '87 Bird
7. '85 Bird
8. '88 Hakeem
9. '87 Hakeem
10. '89 Hakeem
11. '81 Bird
12. '97 Hakeem

This is my official new ranking.

I think there's still something to think about considering you don't have '95 Olajuwon in there but you have the '87-'89 versions and the '97 version. I think there's too much statistical consideration in your approach. I mean, I have '95 Olajuwon behind many strong seasons because despite the goat level playoff run he pulled, a player consistently on that level wouldn't put his team in such position. But it's still the 3rd (or 4th at worst) best season Olajuwon ever had.

[HeartBreakKid]

Hello.

Link to the project idea thread.

The project will contain 1v1 comparisons between the top 10 ever in the latest 3 top 100 project on RealGM which are LeBron James, Michael Jordan, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Bill Russell, Tim Duncan, Wilt Chamberlain, Magic Johnson, Shaquille O'Neal, Hakeem Olajuwon and Larry Bird.
There are 45 possibilities of 2 in 10, the project will have 90 days period to be concluded.

Things to follow;
- Reg. season and postseason play, both are included in evaluations.
- A simple 12/11/.../2/1 point system will be used for the project.
Evaluations will be based on the seasons, not the players direclty as an outcome of a single vote.
- Explanations are needed, even in short forms. (Though for a project like this, I'd appreciate long posts personally. Saying this as a voter, not the commissioner.)
- The time frame for each franchise is 2 days (from/to 10:00 EST).

Results on Google Sheets

The comparison order we'll be following;

Spoiler:

1. Bill Russell vs. Magic Johnson
2. Hakeem Olajuwon vs. Larry Bird
3. Michael Jordan vs. Wilt Chamberlain
4. LeBron James vs. Tim Duncan
5. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar vs. Shaquille O'Neal

6. LeBron James vs. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
7. Michael Jordan vs. Hakeem Olajuwon
8. Shaquille O'Neal vs. Larry Bird
9. Tim Duncan vs. Magic Johnson
10. Bill Russell vs. Wilt Chamberlain

11. Michael Jordan vs. Larry Bird
12. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar vs. Hakeem Olajuwon
13. LeBron James vs. Bill Russell
14. Tim Duncan vs. Wilt Chamberlain
15. Magic Johnson vs. Shaquille O'Neal

16. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar vs. Bill Russell
17. Shaquille O'Neal vs. Hakeem Olajuwon
18. Magic Johnson vs. Larry Bird
19. LeBron James vs. Wilt Chamberlain
20. Michael Jordan vs. Tim Duncan

21. LeBron James vs. Michael Jordan
22. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar vs. Wilt Chamberlain
23. Tim Duncan vs. Larry Bird
24. Bill Russell vs. Shaquille O'Neal
25. Magic Johnson vs. Hakeem Olajuwon

26. LeBron James vs. Larry Bird
27. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar vs. Magic Johnson
28. Michael Jordan vs. Shaquille O'Neal
29. Bill Russell vs. Tim Duncan
30. Wilt Chamberlain vs. Hakeem Olajuwon

31. Wilt Chamberlain vs. Shaquille O'Neal
32. LeBron James vs. Hakeem Olajuwon
33. Bill Russell vs. Larry Bird
34. Michael Jordan vs. Magic Johnson
35. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar vs. Tim Duncan

36. Wilt Chamberlain vs. Larry Bird
37. Tim Duncan vs. Shaquille O'Neal
38. Bill Russell vs. Hakeem Olajuwon
39. LeBron James vs. Magic Johnson
40. Michael Jordan vs. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

41. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar vs. Larry Bird
42. LeBron James vs. Shaquille O'Neal
43. Wilt Chamberlain vs. Magic Johnson
44. Tim Duncan vs. Hakeem Olajuwon
45. Michael Jordan vs. Bill Russell

---

Spoiler:

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Could I be untagged from this? Thanks!

[Dr Positivity]

1. 1986 Bird
2. 1984 Bird
3. 1994 Hakeem
4. 1993 Hakeem
5. 1985 Bird
6. 1987 Bird
7. 1988 Bird
8. 1995 Hakeem
9. 1983 Bird
10. 1982 Bird
11. 1981 Bird
12. 1987 Hakeem

My view is that Hakeem before 93 was relatively flawed on offense (still a good player, but closer to Ewing impact than Shaq) so I'm not crazy about voting too many of those seasons really high, although he did have some good playoff performances. 95 his defensive impact appears to drop a bit but is still close to peak on offense. I feel Bird has a good impact in his early season even if the scoring numbers aren't the best due to all around game. The top 4 are a toss up but I think Bird is overall underrated on defense which when added to his offense is enough for me I guess, at the time he was considered to be nearing GOAT level in those seasons.

[LukaTheGOAT]

1. 94 Hakeem

2. 93 Hakeem

3. 95 Hakeem

4. 86 Bird

5. 84 Bird

6. 85 Bird

7. 90 Hakeem

8. 89 Hakeem

9. 88 Hakeem

10. 87 Bird

11. 87 Hakeem

12. 88 Bird

I plan to give an explanation later.

*Edit

94 and 95 Hakeem are some of the most impressive floor-raising moments ever. I believe the 94 Rockets are the only team since the merger (maybe ever) to only have been a championship team with only 1 all-star and HOF on it. Yes there are many stipulations with it, but nonetheless it is quite impressive and I believe it hints at what Hakeem was able to do. I see 93-95 as relatively close. 93 was a bit better on D with a higher motor, while 95 was definitely his offensive peak and his best year as a creator for others.

86 Bird is the #1 for everyone, because of his all-around great season. It is his best RS definitely. I think 84 might be his best PS. I think 85 is very possibly better than 84 but the bar fight likely hurt his shooting. I still like 85 better in a vaccumn than 87, because he is a better defender and Idk how much I should dock him for the bar fight.

For the rest of this list, I often gave Hakeem the advantage for 2 main reasons: scoring and defense. No Hakeem isn't Bird on offense, but he very possibly is more consistent as a scorer. And furthermore, I think defense provides Hakeem with a higher floor. Even with bad shooting nights, you can be confidently assured you are getting an All-NBA performer based off his defense most of these nights. And I think the less variability matters in my opinion. Him also being among the GOAT man defenders, I think has increased performance when going against the bigs of his time.

Anyways look at the scoring numbers, which leads me to believe the scoring gap between them is closer than people might think. I know Bird had his injuries, and that is affecting the numbers, but it is hard to parse out just how good Bird is if we don't heavily account for the injuries.

I will say when "Bird was “healthy” during the playoffs, from 1984-88, he averaged 27.2 points per game on 59 percent true shooting. In the 15 games after the bar fight, and in games he fought through shin splints, he averaged 21.3 points per game on 49 percent true shooting." per Backpicks https://backpicks.com/2018/01/11/backpicks-goat-11-larry-bird/

If I gave Bird the benefit of the doubt, 85 is possibly ahead of 84, and 88 Bird is very possibly above 90 Hakeem. I am not comfortable assuming that the difference is all due to injury, and not longer playoff runs potentially leading him into tougher defenses.

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

[Odinn21]

Some (general) thoughts;

Watch on YouTube

@9:30

Bird has enough space to shoot the ball, but doesn't, turns the ball over, the Rockets get a fast break point, and Bird's inbound pass is something of an extra value because the Celtics score in the next 5 seconds thanks to that fast inbound pass.
Now, it's still effectively a turnover from a Bird as the scoreline of the last 2 possessions is 2-2 and it's Houston ball. But Bird's inbound passes like this is no rare occurrence from him.
In general, Bird's turnovers are among the most compensated turnovers. I'll put it this way; Bird having 3.2 turnovers a game causes a smaller +/- swing than Olajuwon having 3.2 turnovers a game.

Watch on YouTube

@8:00

This part will be pretty critical of Olajuwon but here we go. This is from 1997 playoffs, Olajuwon's one of the strongest offensive postseason runs. He actually had a good game too, he was 33/10/3 on nearly 70% ts. The possession I want to talk about is that Olajuwon's offensive game was still lacking in some sense even after playing in Rudy T's system for 5 years. He doesn't check the sagging G towards him during the simple 2v2. It was pretty common turnover style for Olajuwon. Though this turnover isn't as risky as Bird's because Bird's one happened when 3 of his teammates were closer to opponent rim than the ball and he lost it at the top, Olajuwon's one was slightly safer since it was a basic baseline situation and his team managed to stop a fast break. But he overcompensates on defense with a goaltending violation, another common trait for Olajuwon about turnovers.

I'm focusing on turnovers right now because these slight changes from offense to defense and defense to offense are looking pretty important to me. Especially since this is a pretty close comparison and these 2 players are stylistically different (one offense oriented player vs. one defense oriented player) and we have actual footage on YouTube this time around.

[70sFan]

Again, let's start with the order for each player:

Larry Bird

Spoiler:

1986
1984
1987
1985
1988
1981
1982

I have 1986 first for obvious reasons - probably his best postseason run along with top tier RS. The best combination of shooting, passing and defense.

The second choice is harder, but I decided to go with 1984. Highly underrated postseason run, while facing 4 of 9 best defenses (including two best defenses in the league). On top of that, it was one of his best defensive seasons when he still played a big part of the time at PF. From what I've seen, his shooting also improved notably that season, even though he didn't take a lot of threes yet.

1987 is an obvious next choice, probably his offensive peak overall. Unfortunately, his defense started to take a big hit. It was mostly visible in Pistons and Lakers series when he couldn't deal with Dantley's mastery and Lakers speed.

1985 and 1988 are similar - very strong regular seasons, but underperformances in playoffs. The difference on defense is massive though.

1981 and 1982 are close, I went with 1981 because of Sixers series comparison.

Now, Hakeem Olajuwon

Spoiler:

1993
1994
1995
1989
1990
1987
1997
1996
1986

I have 1993 slightly ahead of 1994 mostly because of Olajuwon's tendencies on defensive end. He was visibly more active on that end, most notably on P&R coverages. If anyone wants me to point out the differences, I will share clips tomorrow.

On the other hand, you can pick 1994 because of the better understanding of Rudy T system. Hakeem indeed became a bit more relaxed offensive player in 1994-97 period.

I had a tough time to decide between 1995 and 1989 (and 1990). I don't think that Hakeem's RS performance was any better, despite higher scoring numbers. His defense also took a big hit during that season. Meanwhile, 1989-90 Hakeem was probably the most active center I've ever seen on defense. He was literally everywhere and contested more shots than anyone I've ever seen. His lateral quickness finally got combined with better footwork during that time, which turned him into ultimate man defender. The only flaw he had during that time is that he could be overly agressive and that smart offensive players could at time exploit that (but rarely, even Magic had clear problems against him).

1987 over 1997 mostly because of the difference in motor and consistency. 1996 below because of weak postseason performance against Seattle.

I'll give my list later, I have to think about some things here and there.

[DQuinn1575]

Again, let's start with the order for each player:

Larry Bird

Spoiler:

1986
1984
1987
1985
1988
1981
1982

I have 1986 first for obvious reasons - probably his best postseason run along with top tier RS. The best combination of shooting, passing and defense.

The second choice is harder, but I decided to go with 1984. Highly underrated postseason run, while facing 4 of 9 best defenses (including two best defenses in the league). On top of that, it was one of his best defensive seasons when he still played a big part of the time at PF. From what I've seen, his shooting also improved notably that season, even though he didn't take a lot of threes yet.

1987 is an obvious next choice, probably his offensive peak overall. Unfortunately, his defense started to take a big hit. It was mostly visible in Pistons and Lakers series when he couldn't deal with Dantley's mastery and Lakers speed.

1985 and 1988 are similar - very strong regular seasons, but underperformances in playoffs. The difference on defense is massive though.

1981 and 1982 are close, I went with 1981 because of Sixers series comparison.

Now, Hakeem Olajuwon

Spoiler:

1993
1994
1995
1989
1990
1987
1997
1996
1986

I have 1993 slightly ahead of 1994 mostly because of Olajuwon's tendencies on defensive end. He was visibly more active on that end, most notably on P&R coverages. If anyone wants me to point out the differences, I will share clips tomorrow.

On the other hand, you can pick 1994 because of the better understanding of Rudy T system. Hakeem indeed became a bit more relaxed offensive player in 1994-97 period.

I had a tough time to decide between 1995 and 1989 (and 1990). I don't think that Hakeem's RS performance was any better, despite higher scoring numbers. His defense also took a big hit during that season. Meanwhile, 1989-90 Hakeem was probably the most active center I've ever seen on defense. He was literally everywhere and contested more shots than anyone I've ever seen. His lateral quickness finally got combined with better footwork during that time, which turned him into ultimate man defender. The only flaw he had during that time is that he could be overly agressive and that smart offensive players could at time exploit that (but rarely, even Magic had clear problems against him).

1987 over 1997 mostly because of the difference in motor and consistency. 1996 below because of weak postseason performance against Seattle.

I'll give my list later, I have to think about some things here and there.

I realize Bird had a poor shooting playoff in 1983. but it is only 6 games. His Win Share total that year is higher than all but 2 of Olajuwon's seasons, and you are not giving it consideration. I understand you are weighting playoffs heavily, and as go through the project we will agree to disagree on this

[Odinn21]

Again, let's start with the order for each player:

1985 and 1988 are similar - very strong regular seasons, but underperformances in playoffs. The difference on defense is massive though.

1985 season is tough to evaluate. It's in a limbo. I mean if we were focusing on top 3 season stretches, we would take '84-'86 for Bird. '84 is arguably the 2nd strongest season Bird ever had with the postseason he had but there were slight improvements from '84 to '85. His shot selection was better in '85 for instance, as it's obvious in his scoring output and efficiency. It was also the bar fight year, he hurt his hand in one most unnecessary fashion during the ECF.
Comparing Bird's 1985 to 1987/1988; he gained some on offense but lost on defense more. His defensive motor wasn't that high any more. But then again, Bird's 1987 ps run was slightly better than his 1985 run.
I think 1988 has no case over 1985 fwiw. His performance against the Pistons in '88 was underwhelming to a degree he didn't reach in 1985 at any point.

Bird's 1985 is kind of like Curry's 2016. We all know the potential there was, what could've been but didn't turn out that way with anomalies.

By the way, we all know Olajuwon's earned for carry jobs in 1994 and 1995. I think I should point out that Bird's performance in 1984 was also a carry job on his own. The Celtics have a name for themselves in the '80s but the team's structure was more like 2003/2004 Spurs, they were changing their core and the new core, while still good, weren't at the level level earned their names.

Among title seasons;
1981 Bird had 32.73% O-VORP share in the ps.
1984 Bird had 46.81% O-VORP share in the ps.
1986 Bird had 44.91% O-VORP share in the ps.
1994 Olajuwon had 47.69% O-VORP share in the ps.
1995 Olajuwon had 28.33% O-VORP share in the ps. (Olajuwon isn't liked by OBPM in 1995 ps due to his high usage next to Drexler who scored more efficiently.)

O-VORP shares of the offensive centrepieces on title winning teams since 1980;

Spoiler:

1980 / 7.4 obpm / 39.04% / Kareem
1981 / 5.5 obpm / 32.73% / Bird
1982 / 5.7 obpm / 30.62% / Magic
1983 / 6.8 obpm / 32.49% / Moses
1984 / 8.0 obpm / 46.81% / Bird
1985 / 5.5 obpm / 32.22% / Magic
1986 / 7.2 obpm / 44.91% / Bird
1987 / 7.3 obpm / 38.29% / Magic
1988 / 6.3 obpm / 42.24% / Magic
1989 / 3.4 obpm / 29.29% / Zeke
1990 / 4.4 obpm / 44.20% / Zeke
1991 / 10.5 obpm / 52.84% / Jordan
1992 / 8.3 obpm / 51.15% / Jordan
1993 / 9.7 obpm / 57.17% / Jordan
1994 / 4.2 obpm / 47.69% / Olajuwon
1995 / 3.3 obpm / 28.33% / Olajuwon
1996 / 8.8 obpm / 49.05% / Jordan
1997 / 8.1 obpm / 52.63% / Jordan
1998 / 8.0 obpm / 53.15% / Jordan
1999 / 4.0 obpm / 44.78% / Duncan
2000 / 8.0 obpm / 54.00% / Shaq
2001 / 6.9 obpm / 38.15% / Shaq
2002 / 6.3 obpm / 41.53% / Shaq
2003 / 6.2 obpm / 62.22% / Duncan
2004 / 3.2 obpm / 40.38% / Billups
2005 / 4.0 obpm / 32.47% / Duncan
2006 / 6.5 obpm / 54.84% / Wade
2007 / 3.8 obpm / 34.52% / Duncan
2008 / 4.3 obpm / 35.74% / Garnett
2009 / 7.4 obpm / 50.52% / Kobe
2010 / 6.1 obpm / 47.90% / Kobe
2011 / 4.7 obpm / 34.24% / Nowitzki
2012 / 8.1 obpm / 50.88% / LeBron
2013 / 8.4 obpm / 48.55% / LeBron
2014 / 2.5 obpm / 17.66% / Duncan
2015 / 7.7 obpm / 48.49% / Curry
2016 / 7.4 obpm / 39.09% / LeBron
2017 / 8.3 obpm / 38.33% / Curry
2018 / 6.7 obpm / 39.74% / Durant
2019 / 7.6 obpm / 55.12% / Kawhi
2020 / 7.6 obpm / 52.60% / LeBron
2021 / 6.7 obpm / 49.75% / Giannis

(Note: This list is not about quality. It's about providing some statistical pov for winning offensive performances, carry jobs mainly, with a comparison to team output.)