Masai: We have a Young Team and there will be Growing Pains

[Johnny Bball]

My humble suggestion is that:

those posters who are optimistic that this team can make the playoffs will revise their thinking and be happy to angle for the lottery if midway through the season it becomes apparent that this team is really not as good as they thought and that the young guys need another year to be ready to make that leap

and

those posters who believe this team has little to no chance to make the playoffs and who are convinced that tanking is the best approach to this season will revise their thinking and be happy to be doing well should the team actually prove to be better than they thought and our young guys take big steps towards success

any chance y'all can do that instead of us having a damn war all season? let's see what happens and hope for the best, whether it is a high lottery pick or a playoff spot.

its probably somewhere in the middle haha. i think giving the extreme answer gives some of this fanbase the delusion of "being right" for some reason. its either my way or the highway approach lmao.

Only one of those statements is true. I can guarantee the second never happens for the most part.

[Tor_Raps]

Yeah there's no question we're lottery bound. However the question is do we trade Pascal at some point at try to get a top 5 pick (and whatever assets he lands us) or do we think having Pascal and 10-15 pick is a better option. This team currently is 38-42 win team (depending on how many games Pascal misses at the start of the season). Masai has said in the past that he doesn't want to be in "no man's land" which is where this team would be if we finished just around .500

38-42 wins is not "no mans land." We are a young team with the potential to get better with the continued growth of Barnes, Og, Precious, GTJ and Flynn.

If people applied this same logic to every team in the league then no one would ever win a championship because they'd blow up young teams every time they won 38-42 games.

Championships aren't won overnight.

That's a good point. This is a young team where a 42 win season should be seen as a success.

Everyone on the roster is on the rise in terms of their development. That includes Siakam/Fred too who will be asked to do more than they've ever done before.

I just wish we added some good young free agents to the mix. This was going to be our only season with cap space and we ruined it to help Lowry/Miami and maybe even Dallas now.

[old skool]

The Raptors are one of the most interesting teams for this coming season because of their strange 2020-21 sojourn to Tampa. The only thing close in NBA history was when Katrina sent New Orleans to OKC for a season.

The tank or not tank debate has followed expected lines. I think the pro-tank advocates tend to underestimate how long a tank takes to bear fruit. Consider the Bucks, who acquired their two core players (Antetokounmpo and Middleton) in 2013. In the first five season with those two players, the Bucks were below .500 twice. The other three seasons they were .500 or a shade better, without winning a single playoff series. In years six and seven, the Bucks were contenders, losing in the 3rd and 2nd rounds. In year eight they won the championship (Antetokounmpo age 26 and Middleton age 29).

It could easily take a tanking Toronto team 5 years to draft and develop a couple of core pieces that will allow the team to contend. One could hope that the process could be sped up, but the draft is never a sure bet. If 5 years is reasonable for a development acquisition/development period before the team can contend, it would seem that Van Vleet and Siakam are not likely to be main contributors to that contending team.

It takes a long time to build a contender, especially when drafting teenagers not named Lebron. It takes a long time to develop teenagers. Even Lebron and MJ could not win a title before age 28. The pro-tank crowd expects to contend by drafting stars, developing existing players, making great trades and adding free agents over 2-3 seasons. I don't see that NBA teams have been able to do it that fast.

[Kingsway_fan]

Yeah there's no question we're lottery bound. However the question is do we trade Pascal at some point at try to get a top 5 pick (and whatever assets he lands us) or do we think having Pascal and 10-15 pick is a better option. This team currently is 38-42 win team (depending on how many games Pascal misses at the start of the season). Masai has said in the past that he doesn't want to be in "no man's land" which is where this team would be if we finished just around .500

38-42 wins is not "no mans land." We are a young team with the potential to get better with the continued growth of Barnes, Og, Precious, GTJ and Flynn.

If people applied this same logic to every team in the league then no one would ever win a championship because they'd blow up young teams every time they won 38-42 games.

Championships aren't won overnight.

That's a good point. This is a young team where a 42 win season should be seen as a success.

Everyone on the roster is on the rise in terms of their development. That includes Siakam/Fred too who will be asked to do more than they've ever done before.

I just wish we added some good young free agents to the mix. This was going to be our only season with cap space and we ruined it to help Lowry/Miami and maybe even Dallas now.

Which good young free agents did you have in mind that Raptors could have signed?....

[Jcity08]

"In sports, people think 'now,' you know? And this is where we have to be patient and let it grow."

Regardless of what camp you're in, theres something to be said about the lack of patience on this board.

We have a lot of young guys and a lot of established players we no longer have and a lot of up & coming guys that arent quite their yet.

Its clear this isn't going to be a single season turnaround, just be patient and learn to enjoy the transition whatever it is.

[djsunyc]

the team will do what the team does. the question is for the posters on this forum...can you keep your emotions in check and not create another wasteland here this season? handful of posters destroying thread after thread...please do better.

masai doesnt go scorched earth. we arent going to dump our big salary guys for picks. he likes having talented players bc building from zero is much harder than adding to existing talent.

[vulture]

the team will do what the team does. the question is for the posters on this forum...can you keep your emotions in check and not create another wasteland here this season? handful of posters destroying thread after thread...please do better.

masai doesnt go scorched earth. we arent going to dump our big salary guys for picks. he likes having talented players bc building from zero is much harder than adding to existing talent.

I have no faith that people on this forum can be patient. Some posters weren't patient during the championship run when they wanted to trade Kawhi mid-year to the lakers.
This place will go crazy if we start 1-4 and lots of people are here for that drama haha

[refshateRaps]

I think we will be a good treadmill team that will be fun to watch

I expect we make the playoffs in the mid to lower seed.

We have Vets in our Core and hungry skilled, long, defensive youth. Just missing that alpha scorer to put us in the mix.

[ATLTimekeeper]

From the draft, guys like Bouknight, Mitchell, Duarte, Trey Murphy, Tre Mann all would have added potentially elite shooting and/or event creation skills to Toronto. Imagine trading down could have got multiple prospects. Mitchell was an obvious guy who could contribute on both ends right away, while I have always liked Murphy and Duarte has high efficiency shooters who won't be defensive liabilities. I like Scottie, but as soon as we drafted him it kind of meant we are putting the scoring burden on the existing guys - scoring is not his forte.

Why do they need guys that can contribute right away? The draft should never be used that way. Nor should a team in the top 5 trade down for niche skills. If they started doing that, it would be a sign of bad process. I didn't like the Barnes pick, but it should be judged years from now based on how well he does. Not based on a missed opportunity to add a niche skill. You can look around the league, a lot of shooters come from late first round to undrafted. And with Gary Trent decently controllable due to RFA status, they sort of had something in place already. There's 26 3PAs between FVV, Trent, OG, Siakam if they stay at last year's numbers. Between Birch (2), Achiuwa, Boucher (4), Flynn (3.5), Dragic (or Mykailiuk?) (4), Barnes (2), they'll end up around last year's 39/g. And that's just "year 1" of the post-Kyle years.

Atlanta's turnaround happened when they got Gallo, and Bogdanovic and later Lou Williams which collectively added 40 PPG in total. That added spacing allowed Trae to look like an All-NBA player finally. Okongwu was a non-shooter, but he is a Capela in the making.

Young averaged 29/9/4 in 2019 and 25/9/4 in 2020. He finally looked like an all-NBA player because of those guys? Besides, what's the point here? We've established that the Raptors had better shooting last year than the Hawks, and now we've established that they don't just prioritize shooting in the draft, and that the Raptors probably will create a lot of 3s this year as well.

I don't know if that is the only formula to get success, but both Atlanta and Phoenix made some bigs steps with a few smart signings and trades.

So you don't even know if this is the formula for success? Either way, what does that have to do with the Raptors last few off-seasons? They are attempting to build back up from a championship a few years ago, and those teams have been bad longer.

[User_denied]

I've said it before we're going to be rebuilding this year. Will be a 32-39 win team and back in the lottery and get another good young player to build with.

Agreed 100%. And honestly, I'm not too upset.

Win a title
Game 7 of the 2nd round
4th pick overall

Would it have been nice to repeat? Sure. But the next generation of this team has started and we're in a decent place considering we won a title 2 years ago.

Going through this tread I feel like this has been seriously understated. The fact that the only future equity that championship cost us was Jakob Poeltl and Delon Wright bears repeating. Look at virtually every serious contender to win a championship this year. Their entire future is mortgaged just for the chance to win a championship. It's kinda cool that we did it and get the skip the dark days that are ahead for some of those current contending teams.

[SHFT]

I think he is setting expectations for the post 2019 fans.

Imo, our defence and transition offense will be good enough to keep us out of a top 10 pick

Sent from my SM-G991W using Tapatalk

[Harcore Fenton Mun]

It's just the "let it burn" attitude, it gets old.

I'd wager that narrative would flip if we had drafted "their guy". People have to learn to get past it.

[ConSarnit]

38-42 wins is not "no mans land." We are a young team with the potential to get better with the continued growth of Barnes, Og, Precious, GTJ and Flynn.

If people applied this same logic to every team in the league then no one would ever win a championship because they'd blow up young teams every time they won 38-42 games.

Championships aren't won overnight.

That's a good point. This is a young team where a 42 win season should be seen as a success.

Everyone on the roster is on the rise in terms of their development. That includes Siakam/Fred too who will be asked to do more than they've ever done before.

I just wish we added some good young free agents to the mix. This was going to be our only season with cap space and we ruined it to help Lowry/Miami and maybe even Dallas now.

Which good young free agents did you have in mind that Raptors could have signed?....

The answers is: none. Good young free agents are usually restricted or they are too good and teams just match.

People need to realize this team will likely never build through free agency. We have NEVER signed a good free agent (who wasn’t already part of the team). I challenge anyone to name a solid free agent signing we’ve ever had outside of a min salary guy. Here’s a list to pick from:

Baynes
Carroll
Hedo
Fields
Kapono
Klieza
Hakeem

[WuTang_CMB]

I think we will be a good treadmill team that will be fun to watch

I expect we make the playoffs in the mid to lower seed.

We have Vets in our Core and hungry skilled, long, defensive youth. Just missing that alpha scorer to put us in the mix.

We aren't a treadmill by any means. Team is full of young players with upside and young veterans and we are rebuilding to contend again in the next couple seasons.

[ash_k]

I think we will be a good treadmill team that will be fun to watch

I expect we make the playoffs in the mid to lower seed.

We have Vets in our Core and hungry skilled, long, defensive youth. Just missing that alpha scorer to put us in the mix.

We aren't a treadmill by any means. Team is full of young players with upside and young veterans and we are rebuilding to contend again in the next couple seasons.

after all my years here, I am still not sure about the concept of a "treadmill team".
Is a team supposed to be either very bad(fighting for top pick)/OKC or an absolutely guaranteed championship contender/Brooklyn? then everything in-between is "treadmilling"?

[lobosloboslobos]

I think we will be a good treadmill team that will be fun to watch

I expect we make the playoffs in the mid to lower seed.

We have Vets in our Core and hungry skilled, long, defensive youth. Just missing that alpha scorer to put us in the mix.

We aren't a treadmill by any means. Team is full of young players with upside and young veterans and we are rebuilding to contend again in the next couple seasons.

after all my years here, I am still not sure about the concept of a "treadmill team".
Is a team supposed to be either very bad(fighting for top pick)/OKC or an absolutely guaranteed championship contender/Brooklyn? then everything in-between is "treadmilling"?

it's a team that due to bad leadership, bad players and bad contracts has no ability to evolve and get better over time.

As if that's us.

[Duffman100]

I've said it before we're going to be rebuilding this year. Will be a 32-39 win team and back in the lottery and get another good young player to build with.

Agreed 100%. And honestly, I'm not too upset.

Win a title
Game 7 of the 2nd round
4th pick overall

Would it have been nice to repeat? Sure. But the next generation of this team has started and we're in a decent place considering we won a title 2 years ago.

Going through this tread I feel like this has been seriously understated. The fact that the only future equity that championship cost us was Jakob Poeltl and Delon Wright bears repeating. Look at virtually every serious contender to win a championship this year. Their entire future is mortgaged just for the chance to win a championship. It's kinda cool that we did it and get the skip the dark days that are ahead for some of those current contending teams.

Don't forget JV too. A big piece lost.

The magic was getting Kawhi without giving up OG or Siakam (which I thought was impossible). I remember the trade clearly. I was on a road trip with my brother, he woke up and went "kawhi!" and I popped up and said "OG or Siakam?" ...

[ash_k]

We aren't a treadmill by any means. Team is full of young players with upside and young veterans and we are rebuilding to contend again in the next couple seasons.

after all my years here, I am still not sure about the concept of a "treadmill team".
Is a team supposed to be either very bad(fighting for top pick)/OKC or an absolutely guaranteed championship contender/Brooklyn? then everything in-between is "treadmilling"?

it's a team that due to bad leadership, bad players and bad contracts has no ability to evolve and get better over time.

As if that's us.

cool, great explanation! I am curious to see if the ones that keep bringing up "treadmill team" have a different definition!

With many of them it often sounds (currently)"IF MY TEAM IS NOT LIKE THE "BROOKLYN NETS THEN I WANT MY TEAM TO BE LIKE OKC". Nothing else is acceptable"

[djsunyc]

The Raptors are one of the most interesting teams for this coming season because of their strange 2020-21 sojourn to Tampa. The only thing close in NBA history was when Katrina sent New Orleans to OKC for a season.

The tank or not tank debate has followed expected lines. I think the pro-tank advocates tend to underestimate how long a tank takes to bear fruit. Consider the Bucks, who acquired their two core players (Antetokounmpo and Middleton) in 2013. In the first five season with those two players, the Bucks were below .500 twice. The other three seasons they were .500 or a shade better, without winning a single playoff series. In years six and seven, the Bucks were contenders, losing in the 3rd and 2nd rounds. In year eight they won the championship (Antetokounmpo age 26 and Middleton age 29).

It could easily take a tanking Toronto team 5 years to draft and develop a couple of core pieces that will allow the team to contend. One could hope that the process could be sped up, but the draft is never a sure bet. If 5 years is reasonable for a development acquisition/development period before the team can contend, it would seem that Van Vleet and Siakam are not likely to be main contributors to that contending team.

It takes a long time to build a contender, especially when drafting teenagers not named Lebron. It takes a long time to develop teenagers. Even Lebron and MJ could not win a title before age 28. The pro-tank crowd expects to contend by drafting stars, developing existing players, making great trades and adding free agents over 2-3 seasons. I don't see that NBA teams have been able to do it that fast.

raptors have rarely been mediocre in a long time. 06-08, we were. but otherwise we've been really bad or really good. the turnaround was overnight. we went from bad to 47+ win team within 1 season. there were no 6th/7th/8th seed battles for us in 15 years. this will probably be the first year for that.

[Tor_Raps]

That's a good point. This is a young team where a 42 win season should be seen as a success.

Everyone on the roster is on the rise in terms of their development. That includes Siakam/Fred too who will be asked to do more than they've ever done before.

I just wish we added some good young free agents to the mix. This was going to be our only season with cap space and we ruined it to help Lowry/Miami and maybe even Dallas now.

Which good young free agents did you have in mind that Raptors could have signed?....

The answers is: none. Good young free agents are usually restricted or they are too good and teams just match.

People need to realize this team will likely never build through free agency. We have NEVER signed a good free agent (who wasn’t already part of the team). I challenge anyone to name a solid free agent signing we’ve ever had outside of a min salary guy. Here’s a list to pick from:

Baynes
Carroll
Hedo
Fields
Kapono
Klieza
Hakeem

Ya there wasn't a huge list of candidates but part of why Masai is being top dollar is finding gems that other teams don't. The free agents we've brought in really haven't worked out.

And I'll be real... I'm still very insecure about the whole Suggs/Barnes thing. So scared how that might turn out for us lol.