Masai: We have a Young Team and there will be Growing Pains

[Los_29]

after all my years here, I am still not sure about the concept of a "treadmill team".
Is a team supposed to be either very bad(fighting for top pick)/OKC or an absolutely guaranteed championship contender/Brooklyn? then everything in-between is "treadmilling"?

it's a team that due to bad leadership, bad players and bad contracts has no ability to evolve and get better over time.

As if that's us.

cool, great explanation! I am curious to see if the ones that keep bringing up "treadmill team" have a different definition!

With many of them it often sounds (currently)"IF MY TEAM IS NOT LIKE THE "BROOKLYN NETS THEN I WANT MY TEAM TO BE LIKE OKC". Nothing else is acceptable"

Agreed, it's one of the worst takes on this forum.

There is absolutely no in between and they'd rather lose for 10 years to get that generational talent that will NEVER come as opposed to following the blueprint that has won us a championship.

I've never seen such a blatant disregard for history. They are obsessed with a strategy that has never worked.

[Los_29]

Hawks are better than us too imo.

Maybe, I watched them in the playoffs and they basically needed 35+ a night from Trae just to have a chance. Nurse is great at devising defensive schemes for these one man show type of teams.

They shouldn't have gotten passed Philly but their epic meltdown is a whole other topic.

There are no maybes about that. The Hawks are on a completely different tier than us currently.

They have a bunch of young players that are improving on top of the amazing success they just had last season. They also didn't have one of their best players last playoffs (DeAndre Hunter) and were missing a decent one in Reddish.

The Hawks are a team that had an extremely easy path to the ECF. I don't think anyone thinks they will have the same kind of success they had last year. Trae is a top 15 player but the rest of their squad is filled with average to above average players. That kind of roster construction will get you nowhere especially when many of their players have reached their peak (Bogdanovich, Capela, Gallinari).

And Reddish is an absolutely terrible basketball player at this point in his career. I'm not saying he can't develop into a solid player in the future but he's not good enough to play on any playoff caliber team. Hunter is a good player though and I expect even more growth from him in year 3.

Hawks are better than us for sure but I see them in that 4-6 range this year and a 1st or 2nd round playoff team at best.

[djsunyc]

playing the 6ers was not easy. the knicks yes.

[CANsportsguru]

Yeah there's no question we're lottery bound. However the question is do we trade Pascal at some point at try to get a top 5 pick (and whatever assets he lands us) or do we think having Pascal and 10-15 pick is a better option. This team currently is 38-42 win team (depending on how many games Pascal misses at the start of the season). Masai has said in the past that he doesn't want to be in "no man's land" which is where this team would be if we finished just around .500

38-42 wins is not "no mans land." We are a young team with the potential to get better with the continued growth of Barnes, Og, Precious, GTJ and Flynn.

If people applied this same logic to every team in the league then no one would ever win a championship because they'd blow up young teams every time they won 38-42 games.

Championships aren't won overnight.

No man's land is a treadmill team which will be as the roster is currently constructed. That's not even factoring in the huge gap between the top three or four teams in the east and the rest. Young team implies that the core of players have another level yet .... OG is a 3 and D guy (a good one at that) but people grossly over value him on this board, FFV has already reached his peak if anything he'll have a bit of drop off now without Lowry, Pascal is basically as good as he's going to get maybe a little bit more but he's never going to be a superstar he's going to be a fringe All-Star (and that's ok), Barnes will take a few years to develop but he looks promising. The other two aren't even worth mentioning.

There's probably 6 or so teams that are considered preferred destinations to sign top free agents (we're not one of them). We have to build through the draft our development program and through acquiring talent via trade. I really never been a fan of tanking there's so many unknowns with it. However the next two drafts are very strong it would be advantageous of us to try and find a talent to pair next to Barnes now rather than later when Pascal & FFV are in their 30s.

[refshateRaps]

I think we will be a good treadmill team that will be fun to watch

I expect we make the playoffs in the mid to lower seed.

We have Vets in our Core and hungry skilled, long, defensive youth. Just missing that alpha scorer to put us in the mix.

We aren't a treadmill by any means. Team is full of young players with upside and young veterans and we are rebuilding to contend again in the next couple seasons.

IMO a treadmill is a team that is good but doesn't have the star power to get over the hump & into serious contention

That is us pre Kawhi & post Kawhi

Until we address that. The youth wont matter. Nothing any player here does matters in term of contending barring major injuries on the top teams

We will be fun to watch

[Los_29]

Yeah there's no question we're lottery bound. However the question is do we trade Pascal at some point at try to get a top 5 pick (and whatever assets he lands us) or do we think having Pascal and 10-15 pick is a better option. This team currently is 38-42 win team (depending on how many games Pascal misses at the start of the season). Masai has said in the past that he doesn't want to be in "no man's land" which is where this team would be if we finished just around .500

38-42 wins is not "no mans land." We are a young team with the potential to get better with the continued growth of Barnes, Og, Precious, GTJ and Flynn.

If people applied this same logic to every team in the league then no one would ever win a championship because they'd blow up young teams every time they won 38-42 games.

Championships aren't won overnight.

No man's land is a treadmill team which will be as the roster is currently constructed. That's not even factoring in the huge gap between the top three or four teams in the east and the rest. Young team implies that the core of players have another level yet .... OG is a 3 and D guy (a good one at that) but people grossly over value him on this board, FFV has already reached his peak if anything he'll have a bit of drop off now without Lowry, Pascal is basically as good as he's going to get maybe a little bit more but he's never going to be a superstar he's going to be a fringe All-Star (and that's ok), Barnes will take a few years to develop but he looks promising. The other two aren't even worth mentioning.

There's probably 6 or so teams that are considered preferred destinations to sign top free agents (we're not one of them). We have to build through the draft our development program and through acquiring talent via trade. I really never been a fan of tanking there's so many unknowns with it. However the next two drafts are very strong it would be advantageous of us to try and find a talent to pair next to Barnes now rather than later when Pascal & FFV are in their 30s.

FVV and Siakam are just entering their prime. OG likely has another gear before he reaches his peak, Barnes is the 4th overall pick who is 20 years old, Precious is 22, GTJ is 22, Flynn is 23.

That's not a treadmill team. It's just simply not. There is no argument to be made that we are a treadmill team.

[Tor_Raps]

Maybe, I watched them in the playoffs and they basically needed 35+ a night from Trae just to have a chance. Nurse is great at devising defensive schemes for these one man show type of teams.

They shouldn't have gotten passed Philly but their epic meltdown is a whole other topic.

There are no maybes about that. The Hawks are on a completely different tier than us currently.

They have a bunch of young players that are improving on top of the amazing success they just had last season. They also didn't have one of their best players last playoffs (DeAndre Hunter) and were missing a decent one in Reddish.

The Hawks are a team that had an extremely easy path to the ECF. I don't think anyone thinks they will have the same kind of success they had last year. Trae is a top 15 player but the rest of their squad is filled with average to above average players. That kind of roster construction will get you nowhere especially when many of their players have reached their peak (Bogdanovich, Capela, Gallinari).

And Reddish is an absolutely terrible basketball player at this point in his career. I'm not saying he can't develop into a solid player in the future but he's not good enough to play on any playoff caliber team. Hunter is a good player though and I expect even more growth from him in year 3.

Hawks are better than us for sure but I see them in that 4-6 range this year and a 1st or 2nd round playoff team at best.

I wouldn't call beating the Sixers as an easy road. Credit to them for making the Knicks and Sixers look bad as they did in their first playoff run. They also gave the Bucks a real challenge.

I don't think the Hawks are championship contenders for this upcoming season but they are in the next tier knocking on the door. It will all depend on how much Collins and Hunter improve. They have a pretty damn supporting cast around those 3 as well. I would switch rosters in a heartbeat.

[ash_k]

There are no maybes about that. The Hawks are on a completely different tier than us currently.

They have a bunch of young players that are improving on top of the amazing success they just had last season. They also didn't have one of their best players last playoffs (DeAndre Hunter) and were missing a decent one in Reddish.

The Hawks are a team that had an extremely easy path to the ECF. I don't think anyone thinks they will have the same kind of success they had last year. Trae is a top 15 player but the rest of their squad is filled with average to above average players. That kind of roster construction will get you nowhere especially when many of their players have reached their peak (Bogdanovich, Capela, Gallinari).

And Reddish is an absolutely terrible basketball player at this point in his career. I'm not saying he can't develop into a solid player in the future but he's not good enough to play on any playoff caliber team. Hunter is a good player though and I expect even more growth from him in year 3.

Hawks are better than us for sure but I see them in that 4-6 range this year and a 1st or 2nd round playoff team at best.

I wouldn't call beating the Sixers as an easy road. Credit to them for making the Knicks and Sixers look bad as they did in their first playoff run. They also gave the Bucks a real challenge.

I don't think the Hawks are championship contenders for this upcoming season but they are in the next tier knocking on the door. It will all depend on how much Collins and Hunter improve. They have a pretty damn supporting cast around those 3 as well. I would switch rosters in a heartbeat.

Trae Young is the tree hiding the forest.
K-man|Reddish/Hunter/injury prone Bogda+Galinari|Collins (he had an average playoff run) over GTj|OG|Siakam|Barnes|Flynn|Precious|Boucher ?

[ConSarnit]

Which good young free agents did you have in mind that Raptors could have signed?....

The answers is: none. Good young free agents are usually restricted or they are too good and teams just match.

People need to realize this team will likely never build through free agency. We have NEVER signed a good free agent (who wasn’t already part of the team). I challenge anyone to name a solid free agent signing we’ve ever had outside of a min salary guy. Here’s a list to pick from:

Baynes
Carroll
Hedo
Fields
Kapono
Klieza
Hakeem

Ya there wasn't a huge list of candidates but part of why Masai is being top dollar is finding gems that other teams don't. The free agents we've brought in really haven't worked out.

And I'll be real... I'm still very insecure about the whole Suggs/Barnes thing. So scared how that might turn out for us lol.

I trust the FO a lot but I still can’t figure out if

a) they think Barnes has really high upside

or

b) they don’t like Suggs and think he’s overrated

Maybe it’s both but Barnes is still a risky pick. But if this franchise knows one things it’s how to draft and develop players.

[WuTang_CMB]

I think we will be a good treadmill team that will be fun to watch

I expect we make the playoffs in the mid to lower seed.

We have Vets in our Core and hungry skilled, long, defensive youth. Just missing that alpha scorer to put us in the mix.

We aren't a treadmill by any means. Team is full of young players with upside and young veterans and we are rebuilding to contend again in the next couple seasons.

IMO a treadmill is a team that is good but doesn't have the star power to get over the hump & into serious contention

That is us pre Kawhi & post Kawhi

Until we address that. The youth wont matter. Nothing any player here does matters in term of contending barring major injuries on the top teams

We will be fun to watch

Thats not a treadmill. A treadmill would be us resigning lowry serge and gasol and just trying to win and likely landing 4-6 range with no real shot at being a contender.

Masai didnt go that route and quickly pivoted to a rebuild quickly realized our timeline was done for a chip. Thus where we sit today with 7 new youngers in 9 months.

[refshateRaps]

We aren't a treadmill by any means. Team is full of young players with upside and young veterans and we are rebuilding to contend again in the next couple seasons.

IMO a treadmill is a team that is good but doesn't have the star power to get over the hump & into serious contention

That is us pre Kawhi & post Kawhi

Until we address that. The youth wont matter. Nothing any player here does matters in term of contending barring major injuries on the top teams

We will be fun to watch

Thats not a treadmill. A treadmill would be us resigning lowry serge and gasol and just trying to win and likely landing 4-6 range with no real shot at being a contender.

Masai didnt go that route and quickly pivoted to a rebuild quickly realized our timeline was done for a chip. Thus where we sit today with 7 new youngers in 9 months.

You can replace carpet on the mill but if the motor doesn't get more power your still spinning at a similar speed

With no alpha scorer or superstars you are spinning that wheel

[WuTang_CMB]

IMO a treadmill is a team that is good but doesn't have the star power to get over the hump & into serious contention

That is us pre Kawhi & post Kawhi

Until we address that. The youth wont matter. Nothing any player here does matters in term of contending barring major injuries on the top teams

We will be fun to watch

Thats not a treadmill. A treadmill would be us resigning lowry serge and gasol and just trying to win and likely landing 4-6 range with no real shot at being a contender.

Masai didnt go that route and quickly pivoted to a rebuild quickly realized our timeline was done for a chip. Thus where we sit today with 7 new youngers in 9 months.

You can replace carpet on the mill but if the motor doesn't get more power your still spinning at a similar speed

With no alpha scorer or superstars you are spinning that wheel

But you cannot label the team that at this stage with their trajectory on the way up. Team went young and is growing and developing. We dont know where our top end upside will be yet. And only until a few seasons after that, you can call the team a treadmill (if their top end is a 3-4 seed). Thus why labeling the team a treadmill today is incorrect.

[Steelo Green]

People really would take us over the Hawks.

[arbsn]

i have the Raps as the 11th team in the conference fighting tooth and nail for play in. They are pretty trash which is a good thing since we will get a decent pick in a good draft
Nets
Bucks
76ers
Heat
Hawks
Celtics
Bulls
Pacers
Knicks
Hornets
Raps
Wiz
Cavs
Pistons
Magic

[ruckus]

Not really related but I'm kinda astounded that our current "core" was built during an extended playoff run culminating in a championship and consists of 2 late first round picks and an undrafted player.

If we took the top 3 players from every team in the league and weighed them against each other, it's actually pretty damn amazing.

At the same time, I realize that 1 or all 3 of these guys may not be here for the next championship run.

[WuTang_CMB]

Not really related but I'm kinda astounded that our current "core" was built during an extended playoff run culminating in a championship and consists of 2 late first round picks and an undrafted player.

If we took the top 3 players from every team in the league and weighed them against each other, it's actually pretty damn amazing.

At the same time, I realize that 1 or all 3 of these guys may not be here for the next championship run.

Win and and develop players at the same time. SA and Toronto only two teams to execute this plan successfully.

[Ackshun]

treadmill team - Thinking about making the play-in game before the season starts.

[CANsportsguru]

38-42 wins is not "no mans land." We are a young team with the potential to get better with the continued growth of Barnes, Og, Precious, GTJ and Flynn.

If people applied this same logic to every team in the league then no one would ever win a championship because they'd blow up young teams every time they won 38-42 games.

Championships aren't won overnight.

No man's land is a treadmill team which will be as the roster is currently constructed. That's not even factoring in the huge gap between the top three or four teams in the east and the rest. Young team implies that the core of players have another level yet .... OG is a 3 and D guy (a good one at that) but people grossly over value him on this board, FFV has already reached his peak if anything he'll have a bit of drop off now without Lowry, Pascal is basically as good as he's going to get maybe a little bit more but he's never going to be a superstar he's going to be a fringe All-Star (and that's ok), Barnes will take a few years to develop but he looks promising. The other two aren't even worth mentioning.

There's probably 6 or so teams that are considered preferred destinations to sign top free agents (we're not one of them). We have to build through the draft our development program and through acquiring talent via trade. I really never been a fan of tanking there's so many unknowns with it. However the next two drafts are very strong it would be advantageous of us to try and find a talent to pair next to Barnes now rather than later when Pascal & FFV are in their 30s.

FVV and Siakam are just entering their prime. OG likely has another gear before he reaches his peak, Barnes is the 4th overall pick who is 20 years old, Precious is 22, GTJ is 22, Flynn is 23.

That's not a treadmill team. It's just simply not. There is no argument to be made that we are a treadmill team.

A treadmill team implies that your team is okay with status quo just running in place. We didn't make any major splashes in the offseason and we lost our best player. Barnes will take a bit to develop. OG isn't going to put up much more offensive numbers he's clumsy with the ball that's not going to change. He's a catch and shoot kind of guy and a lockdown defender, Pascal proved he's not capable of being number #1 option, FFV will likely struggle running our offense. Since winning the title we have gotten worse every year little by little. Getting swept in the first round by the Nets or Bucks doesn't seem appealing to me.

[HangTime]

I can see this team being like the 04/05 Baby Bulls.

I don't think we'll start 0-9, or 2-13, but I think we can finish 47-35

[pingpongrac]

No man's land is a treadmill team which will be as the roster is currently constructed. That's not even factoring in the huge gap between the top three or four teams in the east and the rest. Young team implies that the core of players have another level yet .... OG is a 3 and D guy (a good one at that) but people grossly over value him on this board, FFV has already reached his peak if anything he'll have a bit of drop off now without Lowry, Pascal is basically as good as he's going to get maybe a little bit more but he's never going to be a superstar he's going to be a fringe All-Star (and that's ok), Barnes will take a few years to develop but he looks promising. The other two aren't even worth mentioning.

There's probably 6 or so teams that are considered preferred destinations to sign top free agents (we're not one of them). We have to build through the draft our development program and through acquiring talent via trade. I really never been a fan of tanking there's so many unknowns with it. However the next two drafts are very strong it would be advantageous of us to try and find a talent to pair next to Barnes now rather than later when Pascal & FFV are in their 30s.

FVV and Siakam are just entering their prime. OG likely has another gear before he reaches his peak, Barnes is the 4th overall pick who is 20 years old, Precious is 22, GTJ is 22, Flynn is 23.

That's not a treadmill team. It's just simply not. There is no argument to be made that we are a treadmill team.

A treadmill team implies that your team is okay with status quo just running in place. We didn't make any major splashes in the offseason and we lost our best player. Barnes will take a bit to develop. OG isn't going to put up much more offensive numbers he's clumsy with the ball that's not going to change. He's a catch and shoot kind of guy and a lockdown defender, Pascal proved he's not capable of being number #1 option, FFV will likely struggle running our offense. Since winning the title we have gotten worse every year little by little. Getting swept in the first round by the Nets or Bucks doesn't seem appealing to me.

One year of ~40 wins and losing in the first round does not mean we'd be a treadmill team. If it happens 3 or 4 seasons in a row while none of our young players make a leap in that time and we're capped out, then we would be considered a treadmill team.

You have a very odd definition of a treadmill team lol.

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