Masai: We have a Young Team and there will be Growing Pains

[Los_29]

No man's land is a treadmill team which will be as the roster is currently constructed. That's not even factoring in the huge gap between the top three or four teams in the east and the rest. Young team implies that the core of players have another level yet .... OG is a 3 and D guy (a good one at that) but people grossly over value him on this board, FFV has already reached his peak if anything he'll have a bit of drop off now without Lowry, Pascal is basically as good as he's going to get maybe a little bit more but he's never going to be a superstar he's going to be a fringe All-Star (and that's ok), Barnes will take a few years to develop but he looks promising. The other two aren't even worth mentioning.

There's probably 6 or so teams that are considered preferred destinations to sign top free agents (we're not one of them). We have to build through the draft our development program and through acquiring talent via trade. I really never been a fan of tanking there's so many unknowns with it. However the next two drafts are very strong it would be advantageous of us to try and find a talent to pair next to Barnes now rather than later when Pascal & FFV are in their 30s.

FVV and Siakam are just entering their prime. OG likely has another gear before he reaches his peak, Barnes is the 4th overall pick who is 20 years old, Precious is 22, GTJ is 22, Flynn is 23.

That's not a treadmill team. It's just simply not. There is no argument to be made that we are a treadmill team.

A treadmill team implies that your team is okay with status quo just running in place.

Exactly. That's not us. You need to have another look at the age of our roster. You also need to remember that this time last year we were just coming off a game 7 loss in the 2nd round to the Celtics. We are NOT a treadmill team. It's actually not even up for debate.

[billy_hoyle]

A treadmill team is when you can't progress, like you're stuck in place.

That happens when your team is maxed out, has no (or relatively little) organic growth left, and is consistently a bottom tier playoff team.

Can't internally get better, and are unlikely to get a star in the mid-to-late teens.

This is where the Vuc/Gordon/Founier Orlando Magic were.

We have a 4th overall pick and OG (and two of the top 3 players from a 55+ win team in FVV and Siakam).

The idea of a Treadmill doesn't make sense to me, because I think you can find stars at that point of the draft if you scout well, and have some luck. All it takes is one great player to push a good team into a contender.

[LiSTWithLani]

Not really related but I'm kinda astounded that our current "core" was built during an extended playoff run culminating in a championship and consists of 2 late first round picks and an undrafted player.

If we took the top 3 players from every team in the league and weighed them against each other, it's actually pretty damn amazing.

At the same time, I realize that 1 or all 3 of these guys may not be here for the next championship run.

People hate on Masai and Bobby, but this is not to be understated! We just won two years ago and look like we're three years into a rebuild. What are people complaining about exactly?
The fact that we have such war-tested young vets (that still have growth potential) and did so without years of drafting in the top half is pretty remarkable! If Dragic hangs around and Precious is 85% as good as many on here believe, I think that we'll be a good team!
Also, too many people are sleeping on Boucher, who will finally get some deserved burn. Birch was a nice add last year and then Precious and then you have a way better defense than last year.
Flynn/ VanVleet/ Dragic/ TrentJr/ Yuta/ Barnes/ Anunoby/ Siakam/ Boucher/ Precious/ Birch

We are 11 deep and really only lack at the 2 spot and somewhat at the five.

Lani@LaniStern.com

[LiSTWithLani]

A treadmill team is when you can't progress, like you're stuck in place.

That happens when your team is maxed out, has no (or relatively little) organic growth left, and is consistently a bottom tier playoff team.

Can't internally get better, and are unlikely to get a star in the mid-to-late teens.

This is where the Vuc/Gordon/Founier Orlando Magic were.

We have a 4th overall pick and OG (and two of the top 3 players from a 55+ win team in FVV and Siakam).

The idea of a Treadmill doesn't make sense to me, because I think you can find stars at that point of the draft if you scout well, and have some luck. All it takes is one great player to push a good team into a contender.

Also, to reiterate what others are saying:

A treadmill is where you literally run in place and have no ability to move forward.

Conceptually, with a core that maxes at 27 (vs 33+), a newly acquired 4th pick with impressive potential, top dogs that just had previous stars move out of their way and a plethora of long, lean two way talent. How could that be considered a team without the ability to move up from out of the playoffs to contention?

Lani@LaniStern.com

[El Mas Chingon]

Honest question, if we're a lottery team again...like last year. What's the motivation for people to watch all year?

Do people think this fan base is going to actually stick around, like the Leaf's apathetic fan base?

I've watched a lot of games over the past 25+ years. But I have better things to do with my time than closely follow a rebuild. Been there, done that, got a replica ring.

I can see myself watching maybe 20 games. More if the team is competitive and exciting. Maybe going to a couple.

[KL78192020]

Not really related but I'm kinda astounded that our current "core" was built during an extended playoff run culminating in a championship and consists of 2 late first round picks and an undrafted player.

If we took the top 3 players from every team in the league and weighed them against each other, it's actually pretty damn amazing.

At the same time, I realize that 1 or all 3 of these guys may not be here for the next championship run.

Win and and develop players at the same time. SA and Toronto only two teams to execute this plan successfully.

Those subsequent events don't happen for the spurs without drafting Tim Duncan 1st overall.

[HomieOmey]

FVV and Siakam are just entering their prime. OG likely has another gear before he reaches his peak, Barnes is the 4th overall pick who is 20 years old, Precious is 22, GTJ is 22, Flynn is 23.

That's not a treadmill team. It's just simply not. There is no argument to be made that we are a treadmill team.

I don't disagree, but mostly because the classic idea of a "treadmill team" is probably dead. What really separates us from the Celtics, Pacers, Kings, Hornets, Knicks, etc? Virtually every team in the league now has FVV/Siakam type taIent/potential and a handful of guys in their twenties with potential. We haven't really pushed to become a winning team like the Bulls, but they still have Ball, Lavine, and Patrick Williams. That being said, I would argue the only real reason we aren't a "treadmill team" is because we absolutely lucked into the 4th pick.

[WuTang_CMB]

Not really related but I'm kinda astounded that our current "core" was built during an extended playoff run culminating in a championship and consists of 2 late first round picks and an undrafted player.

If we took the top 3 players from every team in the league and weighed them against each other, it's actually pretty damn amazing.

At the same time, I realize that 1 or all 3 of these guys may not be here for the next championship run.

Win and and develop players at the same time. SA and Toronto only two teams to execute this plan successfully.

Those subsequent events don't happen for the spurs without drafting Tim Duncan 1st overall.

Sure but it doesnt take away of what they developed along the way. Call our Duncan, Kyle Lowry. Both teams drafted late, developed and stayed patient and stayed relevant.

[KL78192020]

38-42 wins is not "no mans land." We are a young team with the potential to get better with the continued growth of Barnes, Og, Precious, GTJ and Flynn.

If people applied this same logic to every team in the league then no one would ever win a championship because they'd blow up young teams every time they won 38-42 games.

Championships aren't won overnight.

No man's land is a treadmill team which will be as the roster is currently constructed. That's not even factoring in the huge gap between the top three or four teams in the east and the rest. Young team implies that the core of players have another level yet .... OG is a 3 and D guy (a good one at that) but people grossly over value him on this board, FFV has already reached his peak if anything he'll have a bit of drop off now without Lowry, Pascal is basically as good as he's going to get maybe a little bit more but he's never going to be a superstar he's going to be a fringe All-Star (and that's ok), Barnes will take a few years to develop but he looks promising. The other two aren't even worth mentioning.

There's probably 6 or so teams that are considered preferred destinations to sign top free agents (we're not one of them). We have to build through the draft our development program and through acquiring talent via trade. I really never been a fan of tanking there's so many unknowns with it. However the next two drafts are very strong it would be advantageous of us to try and find a talent to pair next to Barnes now rather than later when Pascal & FFV are in their 30s.

FVV and Siakam are just entering their prime. OG likely has another gear before he reaches his peak, Barnes is the 4th overall pick who is 20 years old, Precious is 22, GTJ is 22, Flynn is 23.

That's not a treadmill team. It's just simply not. There is no argument to be made that we are a treadmill team.

Lets just hold the hype train on Precious/GTJ/Flynn. They could also just amount to average 7th/8th men roles.

[Pointgod]

FVV and Siakam are just entering their prime. OG likely has another gear before he reaches his peak, Barnes is the 4th overall pick who is 20 years old, Precious is 22, GTJ is 22, Flynn is 23.

That's not a treadmill team. It's just simply not. There is no argument to be made that we are a treadmill team.

I don't disagree, but mostly because the classic idea of a "treadmill team" is probably dead. What really separates us from the Celtics, Pacers, Kings, Hornets, Knicks, etc? Virtually every team in the league now has FVV/Siakam type taIent/potential and a handful of guys in their twenties with potential. We haven't really pushed to become a winning team like the Bulls, but they still have Ball, Lavine, and Patrick Williams. That being said, I would argue the only real reason we aren't a "treadmill team" is because we absolutely lucked into the 4th pick.

The classic definition of a treadmill team is a team too good to get a high lottery pick and too bad to make the playoffs so they’re kind of stuck in a no man’s land. However it can be argued that treadmill teams are teams with no direction or upward trajectory. Teams like the Kings and Minnesota have are two examples that have been in the wilderness despite having multiple lottery picks and even a top 5 pick over the past couple of years.

It’s too early to call this team a treadmill team, but I can say there’s no clear direction about where the Raptors are going.

[Mikistan]

No man's land is a treadmill team which will be as the roster is currently constructed. That's not even factoring in the huge gap between the top three or four teams in the east and the rest. Young team implies that the core of players have another level yet .... OG is a 3 and D guy (a good one at that) but people grossly over value him on this board, FFV has already reached his peak if anything he'll have a bit of drop off now without Lowry, Pascal is basically as good as he's going to get maybe a little bit more but he's never going to be a superstar he's going to be a fringe All-Star (and that's ok), Barnes will take a few years to develop but he looks promising. The other two aren't even worth mentioning.

There's probably 6 or so teams that are considered preferred destinations to sign top free agents (we're not one of them). We have to build through the draft our development program and through acquiring talent via trade. I really never been a fan of tanking there's so many unknowns with it. However the next two drafts are very strong it would be advantageous of us to try and find a talent to pair next to Barnes now rather than later when Pascal & FFV are in their 30s.

FVV and Siakam are just entering their prime. OG likely has another gear before he reaches his peak, Barnes is the 4th overall pick who is 20 years old, Precious is 22, GTJ is 22, Flynn is 23.

That's not a treadmill team. It's just simply not. There is no argument to be made that we are a treadmill team.

Lets just hold the hype train on Precious/GTJ/Flynn. They could also just amount to average 7th/8th men roles.

Flynn as a backup PG is great value for his pick position - so even that is a win - i think the game will be mental for him, he has a really nice shot and can shoot it off the dribble above the break (rather than just corners) that is a premium in the league and he is herky jerky enough to get separation. What we need from him is to stop doing his best Iverson impression and play a balanced game. I am actually pretty excited for him even tho he isnt 6 foot 9 with a 7 foot wingspan

GTJ can shoot and has swag - he needs to stop taking stupid/difficult shots and only do that if he absolutely has to at the end of the shot clock to bail us out if no one else proves to be good at that.
Otherwise as long as he keeps moving off-the-ball and Nurse makes sure the team runs many different screens/sets instead of telegraphing his usage to hunt a 3 and he will thrive off of Scottie/Pascal/OG/Precious penetration.

Precious - i am actually most high on.
I think he is too athletic, too skilled, too springy with the ability to dribble coast to coast - his shot isnt ugly too, he might be special.

[Harcore Fenton Mun]

I've watched a lot of games over the past 25+ years. But I have better things to do with my time than closely follow a rebuild. Been there, done that, got a replica ring.

I can see myself watching maybe 20 games. More if the team is competitive and exciting. Maybe going to a couple.

Yup, that's the thing. Unless you've been around from the drop, you don't know what the pain is like. Most of our fan base hasn't experienced that. Anything post K.O. was a cake walk comparatively.

Since Leiweke, it's just scaled up really.

[Los_29]

No man's land is a treadmill team which will be as the roster is currently constructed. That's not even factoring in the huge gap between the top three or four teams in the east and the rest. Young team implies that the core of players have another level yet .... OG is a 3 and D guy (a good one at that) but people grossly over value him on this board, FFV has already reached his peak if anything he'll have a bit of drop off now without Lowry, Pascal is basically as good as he's going to get maybe a little bit more but he's never going to be a superstar he's going to be a fringe All-Star (and that's ok), Barnes will take a few years to develop but he looks promising. The other two aren't even worth mentioning.

There's probably 6 or so teams that are considered preferred destinations to sign top free agents (we're not one of them). We have to build through the draft our development program and through acquiring talent via trade. I really never been a fan of tanking there's so many unknowns with it. However the next two drafts are very strong it would be advantageous of us to try and find a talent to pair next to Barnes now rather than later when Pascal & FFV are in their 30s.

FVV and Siakam are just entering their prime. OG likely has another gear before he reaches his peak, Barnes is the 4th overall pick who is 20 years old, Precious is 22, GTJ is 22, Flynn is 23.

That's not a treadmill team. It's just simply not. There is no argument to be made that we are a treadmill team.

Lets just hold the hype train on Precious/GTJ/Flynn. They could also just amount to average 7th/8th men roles.

I'm not hyping them up. The point is they are all young with lots of room for improvement. Even if they somehow never improved they are still not a treadmill team because all of their core players are under the age of 27.

[Morse Code]

Imagine STILL not knowing the difference between a mediocre team with one or more blue chip prospects, and a mediocre team without any.

[Morse Code]

Stick your head in the sand if you want. That’s on you. This is a damn treadmill team if I’ve ever seen one and I’ve been watching the NBA religiously since 2001.

[Morse Code]

“Room for improvement” lmao you know who else has room for improvement? LITERALLY EVERYONE. Means nothing

[Plain Old Josh]

Nick Nurse also did a podcast today where he said Scottie Barnes will play a lot. Multiple positions , get lots of reps

So that's why Masai cleaned house, getting rid of all of Nick's favourite players (McCaw, Stanley, Bembry).

Good on Masai. Nick is a good coach, but he has a weakness for scrubs that play hard defensively. Masai has done a good job getting rid of those guys, and giving Nick more young guys with higher upside.

[BBallInSight]

I think we're really going to miss Lowry. He was our engine. Made everyone else better. I don't see Van Vleet as a starting point guard. That's why I thought we'd go after Suggs.

[720]

A treadmill team is a team that’s too good to get a high lottery pick and not good enough to become legitimate championship contenders.

We lack the elite shot creating blue chip prospect (Jalen Green, Cade Cunningham) that many young rebuilding teams have/desire that can one day grow to lead their teams to becoming Championship contenders.

Scottie is a fun prospect to have but he’s sorta a project when it comes to turning him into that mold or tier of prospect. It might happen, we'll see.

GTJ and Achiuwa while good they don’t have that kind of ceiling.

Siakam can be a great 2nd and 3rd option on an elite team but he can’t be that top 10 player in the league kind of player (at least he hasn’t shown he can).

Fred is flawed because he can’t finish around the rim at an efficient rate.

So in the end it makes sense why many people here are saying we’re treadmill or in no mans land despite how young we are.

Makes sense, for example the pacers are young, but do any of us think they’re NOT treadmill? lol

[canada_dry]

FVV and Siakam are just entering their prime. OG likely has another gear before he reaches his peak, Barnes is the 4th overall pick who is 20 years old, Precious is 22, GTJ is 22, Flynn is 23.

That's not a treadmill team. It's just simply not. There is no argument to be made that we are a treadmill team.

I don't disagree, but mostly because the classic idea of a "treadmill team" is probably dead. What really separates us from the Celtics, Pacers, Kings, Hornets, Knicks, etc? Virtually every team in the league now has FVV/Siakam type taIent/potential and a handful of guys in their twenties with potential. We haven't really pushed to become a winning team like the Bulls, but they still have Ball, Lavine, and Patrick Williams. That being said, I would argue the only real reason we aren't a "treadmill team" is because we absolutely lucked into the 4th pick.

The classic definition of a treadmill team is a team too good to get a high lottery pick and too bad to make the playoffs so they’re kind of stuck in a no man’s land. However it can be argued that treadmill teams are teams with no direction or upward trajectory. Teams like the Kings and Minnesota have are two examples that have been in the wilderness despite having multiple lottery picks and even a top 5 pick over the past couple of years.

It’s too early to call this team a treadmill team, but I can say there’s no clear direction about where the Raptors are going.

No thats not the classic definition. Thats just whats known as the worst place to be as a basketball team. You're conflating the two. If u wanna call that no mans land, sure, thats accurate.



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