Ben Simmons Containment Thread Take 3

[rzzzzz]

After Shaq and Chuck hit the waves, and the net, the past couple of days, I wonder if they changed the conversation any about Simmons and his demands. Like it’s OK for Philly to shop, but if they can’t get what they want, Ben should clam up and work on his damn game, whether its to go back to Philly, who paid him plenty to be a real complete player, or any place else he might end up. Maybe it won’t penetrate the Krutch Sports/LA bubble, but man they tore him a big one to grow up. One thing I think they should have hit Philly for is coddling him all these years. If I’m trading for him, even pennies on the dollar, I don’t make the deal until I’m sure someone gets in his face and lets him know that this petulant attitude don’t go no more.

[kuclas]

Sixers and Morey will wait it out. We are simply in unchartered territory with a max contract player on a 4 year contract. Never in the history of the nba has a player with Simmons contract refused to report.

It’s one thing for Jimmy butler to blow up in practice but he was expiring contract so Minnesota had to do something

Almost same with harden showing up out of shape with 2 years left.

Or Kyrie threatening knee surgery with 2 years left in Cleveland.

This is 4 years we are talking about.
The Sixers don’t need Simmons for regular season as long as Embiid is healthy. That’s a big if. They will be a 3-4 seed if Embiid is healthy for 70% of the games without Simmons.

Teams will get a sense how good or bad they are going to be the first 10-15 games.

And I think Morey is comfortable waiting it out rather than take on players who not only cost a lot but don’t really improve the Sixers lineup.

[kuclas]

After Shaq and Chuck hit the waves, and the net, the past couple of days, I wonder if they changed the conversation any about Simmons and his demands. Like it’s OK for Philly to shop, but if they can’t get what they want, Ben should clam up and work on his damn game, whether its to go back to Philly, who paid him plenty to be a real complete player, or any place else he might end up. Maybe it won’t penetrate the Krutch Sports/LA bubble, but man they tore him a big one to grow up. One thing I think they should have hit Philly for is coddling him all these years. If I’m trading for him, even pennies on the dollar, I don’t make the deal until I’m sure someone gets in his face and lets him know that this petulant attitude don’t go no more.

Ben isn’t getting traded for pennies on the dollar. At worst it will be for guys on expiring contracts to clear up salary or future picks for more flexibility.

Zero need to take on Wiggins or Hield contracts. When they have Harris and Seth Curry doing the same Job already.

[Wolveswin]

Sabonis to Toronto

LeVert, Dragic, Boucher and tons of picks/swaps via Indiana and Toronto to Philly

Simmons and Maxey to Indy

Why is it that Maxey is always the "chaser" in these deals?

No reason to include him and any of these deals.

Yeah I was being lazy on making it work cap wise. I'll edit it to Paul Reed and Isaiah Joe

Maxey isn’t a throw in, Sabonis > Simmons in value.

To Pacers: Simmons + Maxey + 76ers 1st

To Raptors: Sabonis + Curry

To 76ers: Brogdan + Barnes + Dragic

Full Trade posted one page back.

[rzzzzz]

Ben isn’t getting traded for pennies on the dollar. At worst it will be for guys on expiring contracts to clear up salary or future picks for more flexibility.

Zero need to take on Wiggins or Hield contracts. When they have Harris and Seth Curry doing the same Job already.

There is a good deal of pressure not to waste any more of Embiid’s time while he’s in his prime. Like the Freak, I think it would be in the team’s best interest to put together as good a roster as they can deploy to take advantage of his mvp level strengths. It might shake somebody loose we really want. Hell, just some more outside shooting and someone adept at the pick and roll, and who knows how far he can go if he can keep from landing bad a whole season. But I admit, patience is a virtue.

[the_process]

Ben isn’t getting traded for pennies on the dollar. At worst it will be for guys on expiring contracts to clear up salary or future picks for more flexibility.

Zero need to take on Wiggins or Hield contracts. When they have Harris and Seth Curry doing the same Job already.

There is a good deal of pressure not to waste any more of Embiid’s time while he’s in his prime. Like the Freak, I think it would be in the team’s best interest to put together as good a roster as they can deploy to take advantage of his mvp level strengths. It might shake somebody loose we really want. Hell, just some more outside shooting and someone adept at the pick and roll, and who knows how far he can go if he can keep from landing bad a whole season. But I admit, patience is a virtue.

Embiid signed his supermax extension. No rush now. Either there is a good deal for Simmons or he can sit out. It’s obviously not ideal to waste a prime Embiid year, but trading Simmons for nothing wastes all of the Embiid years.

Now that being said, Morey needs to adjust his target. Beal and Lillard aren’t going anywhere. I’d like to see if a 3 way deal where the principle pieces are Ingram to PHI, Turner to NOP, and Simmons to IND is at all feasible. Seems to me you can build that out into something good for all 3 teams.

[jbk1234]

Sixers and Morey will wait it out. We are simply in unchartered territory with a max contract player on a 4 year contract. Never in the history of the nba has a player with Simmons contract refused to report.

It’s one thing for Jimmy butler to blow up in practice but he was expiring contract so Minnesota had to do something

Almost same with harden showing up out of shape with 2 years left.

Or Kyrie threatening knee surgery with 2 years left in Cleveland.

This is 4 years we are talking about.
The Sixers don’t need Simmons for regular season as long as Embiid is healthy. That’s a big if. They will be a 3-4 seed if Embiid is healthy for 70% of the games without Simmons.

Teams will get a sense how good or bad they are going to be the first 10-15 games.

And I think Morey is comfortable waiting it out rather than take on players who not only cost a lot but don’t really improve the Sixers lineup.

So there's a few assumptions here that are worth evaluating. The first one is that Simmons is only available for a trade because he demanded a trade. It sure sounded like the Sixers were ready to, at a minimum, explore his trade value after the Hawks series. If anything, they appeared farther away from contending with that core than they had been in prior years and whether you agree that Embiid was right to say what he said after game 7, he said it.

The second assumption is that Simmons has lower than hoped for trade value because of the trade demand and threat not to report. I don't know that's the primary reason for the absence of superstar offers. Harden still got a super star return and he was only willing to go to a handful of teams. The refusal to report news only broke within the last couple weeks and he's been available for months. Reports are that teams like the Kings and Warriors haven't even spoken to Morey since he made his expectations clear. Ben Simmons is a good player with serious flaws in his game and is on a max deal. I think the issue with Ben's trade value is more fundamental than bargaining position.

Finally, there's the assumption that if he reports and plays, his trade value will get better. Even if you suspend disbelief and say the Philly fans will take it easy on him, he gives full effort, and his head is in the game, teams have seen him play well in the regular for four years in a row. If you get regular Ben Simmons, and the locker room is fine, what happens when other teams start intentionally fouling him in the 4th quarter? I just see way too many ways for Ben returning to the Sixers to go bad for folks to assume it will help his trade value.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

[Texas Chuck]

So there's a few assumptions here that are worth evaluating. The first one is that Simmons is only available for a trade because he demanded a trade. It sure sounded like the Sixers were ready to, at a minimum, explore his trade value after the Hawks series. If anything, they appeared farther away from contending with that core than they had been in prior years and whether you agree that Embiid was right to say what he said after game 7, he said it.

The second assumption is that Simmons has lower than hoped for trade value because of the trade demand and threat not to report. I don't know that's the primary reason for the absence of superstar offers. Harden still got a super star return and he was only willing to go to a handful of teams. The refusal to report news only broke within the last couple weeks and he's been available for months. Reports are that teams like the Kings and Warriors haven't even spoken to Morey since he made his expectations clear. Ben Simmons is a good player with serious flaws in his game and is on a max deal. I think the issue with Ben's trade value is more fundamental than bargaining position.

Finally, there's the assumption that if he reports and plays, his trade value will get better. Even if you suspend disbelief and say the Philly fans will take it easy on him, he gives full effort, and his head is in the game, teams have seen him play well in the regular for four years in a row. If you get regular Ben Simmons, and the locker room is fine, what happens when other teams start intentionally fouling him in the 4th quarter? I just see way too many ways for Ben returning to the Sixers to go bad for folks to assume it will help his trade value.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

This is a really good post.

Now obviously I am still more optimistic on Simmons trade value than most, but I think this is a very good breakdown of how extra drama plays into his value.

Only place I might disagree is that by him coming back and playing(if that ever happens obviously) that might inspire a team who really wants him to up their offer a bit because now its clear that Philly/Simmons have at least worked things out enough to try and make a go of it again. But I certainly agree that Simmons coming back and playing well the first 10-15 games of the RS isn't going to erase the doubts of anyone concerned about his playoff lack of offensive aggression. He doesn't have any way to fix that until next year's playoffs. It's just like with Randle. He can repeat his great RS of last year, but the concerns about him in the playoffs will still remain until he shows last year was an aberration.

[Texas Chuck]

Okay calling my shot on the final Simmons deal--he goes to Cleveland and Toronto is involved.

Toronto trades: Dragic/Boucher
Toronto gets: Rubio/Osman/24 CLE 1st(lotto, top 10, top 7, 2 2nds)

Cleveland trades: Rubio/Osman/Sexton/22 CLE 1st unp/24 CLE 1st(See above)
Cleveland gets: Simmons/Milton

Philly trades: Simmons/Milton
Philly gets: Sexton/Boucher/Dragic/22 CLE 1st unp

Toronto gets a future 1st for Boucher/eating Osman and solves their Dragic concerns
Cleveland obviously gets Simmons but also a young bench scorer in Milton
Philly gets a stopgap vet PG, a stopgap PF, a young talented guard and an unprotected 1st

[jbk1234]

Okay calling my shot on the final Simmons deal--he goes to Cleveland and Toronto is involved.

Toronto trades: Dragic/Boucher
Toronto gets: Rubio/Osman/24 CLE 1st(lotto, top 10, top 7, 2 2nds)

Cleveland trades: Rubio/Osman/Sexton/22 CLE 1st unp/24 CLE 1st(See above)
Cleveland gets: Simmons/Milton

Philly trades: Simmons/Milton
Philly gets: Sexton/Boucher/Dragic/22 CLE 1st unp

Toronto gets a future 1st for Boucher/eating Osman and solves their Dragic concerns
Cleveland obviously gets Simmons but also a young bench scorer in Milton
Philly gets a stopgap vet PG, a stopgap PF, a young talented guard and an unprotected 1st

If I'm Philly, I'm cutting the Raps out. I'd rather have Rubio over Dragic and the first/Cedi over Boucher. This is even more true if I'm looking to package part of Ben's return into another player down the road.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

[Texas Chuck]

Okay calling my shot on the final Simmons deal--he goes to Cleveland and Toronto is involved.

Toronto trades: Dragic/Boucher
Toronto gets: Rubio/Osman/24 CLE 1st(lotto, top 10, top 7, 2 2nds)

Cleveland trades: Rubio/Osman/Sexton/22 CLE 1st unp/24 CLE 1st(See above)
Cleveland gets: Simmons/Milton

Philly trades: Simmons/Milton
Philly gets: Sexton/Boucher/Dragic/22 CLE 1st unp

Toronto gets a future 1st for Boucher/eating Osman and solves their Dragic concerns
Cleveland obviously gets Simmons but also a young bench scorer in Milton
Philly gets a stopgap vet PG, a stopgap PF, a young talented guard and an unprotected 1st

If I'm Philly, I'm cutting the Raps out. I'd rather have Rubio over Dragic and the first/Cedi over Boucher. This is even more true if I'm looking to package part of Ben's return into another player down the road.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

Definitely a case for that. But they still want to win and Osman sucks and they could use a stretchy mobile big. I have punting a distant 1st worth making that swap for a team trying to win right now. Rubio/Dragic a more interesting question. Rubio almost certainly helps you get through a RS better, but I think I'd rather have Dragic for a playoff run and that's all that should matter to Philly.

But certainly could cut Toronto out if Philly was willing to pay the tax on Osman to do nothing in exchange for that extra pick.

[Sportfan73]

Okay calling my shot on the final Simmons deal--he goes to Cleveland and Toronto is involved.

Toronto trades: Dragic/Boucher
Toronto gets: Rubio/Osman/24 CLE 1st(lotto, top 10, top 7, 2 2nds)

Cleveland trades: Rubio/Osman/Sexton/22 CLE 1st unp/24 CLE 1st(See above)
Cleveland gets: Simmons/Milton

Philly trades: Simmons/Milton
Philly gets: Sexton/Boucher/Dragic/22 CLE 1st unp

Toronto gets a future 1st for Boucher/eating Osman and solves their Dragic concerns
Cleveland obviously gets Simmons but also a young bench scorer in Milton
Philly gets a stopgap vet PG, a stopgap PF, a young talented guard and an unprotected 1st

This is gooood.

[MoneyTalks41890]

Okay calling my shot on the final Simmons deal--he goes to Cleveland and Toronto is involved.

Toronto trades: Dragic/Boucher
Toronto gets: Rubio/Osman/24 CLE 1st(lotto, top 10, top 7, 2 2nds)

Cleveland trades: Rubio/Osman/Sexton/22 CLE 1st unp/24 CLE 1st(See above)
Cleveland gets: Simmons/Milton

Philly trades: Simmons/Milton
Philly gets: Sexton/Boucher/Dragic/22 CLE 1st unp

Toronto gets a future 1st for Boucher/eating Osman and solves their Dragic concerns
Cleveland obviously gets Simmons but also a young bench scorer in Milton
Philly gets a stopgap vet PG, a stopgap PF, a young talented guard and an unprotected 1st

If I'm Philly, I'm cutting the Raps out. I'd rather have Rubio over Dragic and the first/Cedi over Boucher. This is even more true if I'm looking to package part of Ben's return into another player down the road.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

Definitely a case for that. But they still want to win and Osman sucks and they could use a stretchy mobile big. I have punting a distant 1st worth making that swap for a team trying to win right now. Rubio/Dragic a more interesting question. Rubio almost certainly helps you get through a RS better, but I think I'd rather have Dragic for a playoff run and that's all that should matter to Philly.

But certainly could cut Toronto out if Philly was willing to pay the tax on Osman to do nothing in exchange for that extra pick.

I think you can just cut the Dragic/Rubio part.

[Godaddycurse]

Okay calling my shot on the final Simmons deal--he goes to Cleveland and Toronto is involved.

Toronto trades: Dragic/Boucher
Toronto gets: Rubio/Osman/24 CLE 1st(lotto, top 10, top 7, 2 2nds)

Cleveland trades: Rubio/Osman/Sexton/22 CLE 1st unp/24 CLE 1st(See above)
Cleveland gets: Simmons/Milton

Philly trades: Simmons/Milton
Philly gets: Sexton/Boucher/Dragic/22 CLE 1st unp

Toronto gets a future 1st for Boucher/eating Osman and solves their Dragic concerns
Cleveland obviously gets Simmons but also a young bench scorer in Milton
Philly gets a stopgap vet PG, a stopgap PF, a young talented guard and an unprotected 1st

I would try to reroute osman for favors if possible, or powell/2nds. He'd get zero minutes on our squad as it stands.

[Texas Chuck]

Okay calling my shot on the final Simmons deal--he goes to Cleveland and Toronto is involved.

Toronto trades: Dragic/Boucher
Toronto gets: Rubio/Osman/24 CLE 1st(lotto, top 10, top 7, 2 2nds)

Cleveland trades: Rubio/Osman/Sexton/22 CLE 1st unp/24 CLE 1st(See above)
Cleveland gets: Simmons/Milton

Philly trades: Simmons/Milton
Philly gets: Sexton/Boucher/Dragic/22 CLE 1st unp

Toronto gets a future 1st for Boucher/eating Osman and solves their Dragic concerns
Cleveland obviously gets Simmons but also a young bench scorer in Milton
Philly gets a stopgap vet PG, a stopgap PF, a young talented guard and an unprotected 1st

I would try to reroute osman for favors if possible, or powell/2nds. He'd get zero minutes on our squad as it stands.

I valued him as bad money obviously so totally get it. Would have zero interest in Powell/2nds for him. Powell can play a role, not sure Osman should be on the court. Wouldn't give incentive to save a little salary. Probably wouldn't even straight swap them. But understand nobody is more down on Osman than me so some Mavs fans might like the roster balancing more?

[eminence]

In a PHI/CLE deal I think you should look for a 3rd team who can take some $ into space to try to get both PHI/CLE under the tax line.

[Sportfan73]

In a PHI/CLE deal I think you should look for a 3rd team who can take some $ into space to try to get both PHI/CLE under the tax line.

Definitely seems possible

[eminence]

What's the price for a squad to just absorb Osman into space? Does that 1st proposed by Chuck get it done? I'd probably do it if I were a team like OKC (not sure how their cap is operating).

CLE Out: Rubio/Osman/Sexton/2 1sts
CLE In: Simmons

PHI Out: Simmons
PHI In: Rubio/Sexton/1st

??? Out: n/a
??? In: Osman/1st

[babyjax13]

Sixers and Morey will wait it out. We are simply in unchartered territory with a max contract player on a 4 year contract. Never in the history of the nba has a player with Simmons contract refused to report.

It’s one thing for Jimmy butler to blow up in practice but he was expiring contract so Minnesota had to do something

Almost same with harden showing up out of shape with 2 years left.

Or Kyrie threatening knee surgery with 2 years left in Cleveland.

This is 4 years we are talking about.
The Sixers don’t need Simmons for regular season as long as Embiid is healthy. That’s a big if. They will be a 3-4 seed if Embiid is healthy for 70% of the games without Simmons.

Teams will get a sense how good or bad they are going to be the first 10-15 games.

And I think Morey is comfortable waiting it out rather than take on players who not only cost a lot but don’t really improve the Sixers lineup.

So there's a few assumptions here that are worth evaluating. The first one is that Simmons is only available for a trade because he demanded a trade. It sure sounded like the Sixers were ready to, at a minimum, explore his trade value after the Hawks series. If anything, they appeared farther away from contending with that core than they had been in prior years and whether you agree that Embiid was right to say what he said after game 7, he said it.

The second assumption is that Simmons has lower than hoped for trade value because of the trade demand and threat not to report. I don't know that's the primary reason for the absence of superstar offers. Harden still got a super star return and he was only willing to go to a handful of teams. The refusal to report news only broke within the last couple weeks and he's been available for months. Reports are that teams like the Kings and Warriors haven't even spoken to Morey since he made his expectations clear. Ben Simmons is a good player with serious flaws in his game and is on a max deal. I think the issue with Ben's trade value is more fundamental than bargaining position.

Finally, there's the assumption that if he reports and plays, his trade value will get better. Even if you suspend disbelief and say the Philly fans will take it easy on him, he gives full effort, and his head is in the game, teams have seen him play well in the regular for four years in a row. If you get regular Ben Simmons, and the locker room is fine, what happens when other teams start intentionally fouling him in the 4th quarter? I just see way too many ways for Ben returning to the Sixers to go bad for folks to assume it will help his trade value.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

Going to echo Chuck's opening and say fantastic post, b/c an and-1 isn't quite enough here.

[babyjax13]

Okay calling my shot on the final Simmons deal--he goes to Cleveland and Toronto is involved.

Toronto trades: Dragic/Boucher
Toronto gets: Rubio/Osman/24 CLE 1st(lotto, top 10, top 7, 2 2nds)

Cleveland trades: Rubio/Osman/Sexton/22 CLE 1st unp/24 CLE 1st(See above)
Cleveland gets: Simmons/Milton

Philly trades: Simmons/Milton
Philly gets: Sexton/Boucher/Dragic/22 CLE 1st unp

Toronto gets a future 1st for Boucher/eating Osman and solves their Dragic concerns
Cleveland obviously gets Simmons but also a young bench scorer in Milton
Philly gets a stopgap vet PG, a stopgap PF, a young talented guard and an unprotected 1st

I would try to reroute osman for favors if possible, or powell/2nds. He'd get zero minutes on our squad as it stands.

I valued him as bad money obviously so totally get it. Would have zero interest in Powell/2nds for him. Powell can play a role, not sure Osman should be on the court. Wouldn't give incentive to save a little salary. Probably wouldn't even straight swap them. But understand nobody is more down on Osman than me so some Mavs fans might like the roster balancing more?

I think Osman can be fine on any team as a backup 15-18 minute a game wing creator/shooter. He's not a great player, but if you just need someone in the second unit who can hit an open shot and/or play a bit of pnr, I think he'll do. His shooting cratered this past season, but historically he's been average to above average from three. If Utah still had Favors and we just wanted to find Joe Ingles a protégé I'd be all over a Favors-Osman straight swap.