Ben Simmons Containment Thread Take 3

[shrink]

Sixers and Morey will wait it out. We are simply in unchartered territory with a max contract player on a 4 year contract. Never in the history of the nba has a player with Simmons contract refused to report.

It’s one thing for Jimmy butler to blow up in practice but he was expiring contract so Minnesota had to do something.

Are you saying that if Butler (aka “General Soreness”) had been on a four year contract, MIN wouldn’t have had to do something?

Butler is a big money/respect guy. I think if Minny had chosen to do the renegotiate and extend option then things might have turned out different for a few years keeping Butler happy.

You might be right, but that’s not the comparison being made here. Maybe an early, four year deal keeps Butler happy and he never demands a trade, but a four year deal isn’t making Simmons want to stay in PHI.

The comparison is that once both Simmons and Butler wanted out, MIN could have put up with Butler’s behavior and destruction of team morale if he had been on a four year deal like Simmons.

[Domejandro]

Sixers and Morey will wait it out. We are simply in unchartered territory with a max contract player on a 4 year contract. Never in the history of the nba has a player with Simmons contract refused to report.

It’s one thing for Jimmy butler to blow up in practice but he was expiring contract so Minnesota had to do something.

Are you saying that if Butler (aka “General Soreness”) had been on a four year contract, MIN wouldn’t have had to do something?

Butler is a big money/respect guy. I think if Minny had chosen to do the renegotiate and extend option then things might have turned out different for a few years keeping Butler happy.

Minnesota literally could not do that because they were capped; it was not an option. It was very open that Minnesota had a full max on the table the following year, the whole contract stuff was 100% an excuse.

[psman2]

Are you saying that if Butler (aka “General Soreness”) had been on a four year contract, MIN wouldn’t have had to do something?

Butler is a big money/respect guy. I think if Minny had chosen to do the renegotiate and extend option then things might have turned out different for a few years keeping Butler happy.

Minnesota literally could not do that because they were capped; it was not an option. It was very open that Minnesota had a full max on the table the following year, the whole contract stuff was 100% an excuse.

My memory is that Minny had a avenue to clear cap space to do a renegotiate deal, like Harden did with Houston. Maybe I am remembering it wrong, but I think if Minny waiting on the Wiggins deal they could have been room.

[kuclas]

Are you saying that if Butler (aka “General Soreness”) had been on a four year contract, MIN wouldn’t have had to do something?

Butler is a big money/respect guy. I think if Minny had chosen to do the renegotiate and extend option then things might have turned out different for a few years keeping Butler happy.

Minnesota literally could not do that because they were capped; it was not an option. It was very open that Minnesota had a full max on the table the following year, the whole contract stuff was 100% an excuse.

Jimmy wanted to leave. He could have gotten the full max end of regular season like you said. But Minnesota needed to do something or lose Butler for nothing.

The opposite is true for Simmons. He's got 4 years left. Even if he refuses to play this season. He's still sitting on 3 seasons left, an eternity in NBA contract world. Don't get me wrong. A trade will happen. But it will be closer to trade deadline if needed. Lots of things can happen during off season to trade deadline. Teams change chemistry that isn't work, players get injured. Other players get disgruntled.

[deadfeather]

There isn't an issue in Philly. We all know what's going to happen. Either philly gets Dame or Philly gets Beal. There will be no inbetween. The dude has too many years on his contract, he has no choice but to come back. Philly is not going to trade him for anyone other than Dame or Beal. I'm sure this all ends up with him staying in Philly. He wont miss games for this season.

[Wolveswin]

There isn't an issue in Philly. We all know what's going to happen. Either philly gets Dame or Philly gets Beal. There will be no inbetween. The dude has too many years on his contract, he has no choice but to come back. Philly is not going to trade him for anyone other than Dame or Beal. I'm sure this all ends up with him staying in Philly. He wont miss games for this season.

You know this isn’t true. And no matter how many times you say it doesn’t make it more true.

[deadfeather]

There isn't an issue in Philly. We all know what's going to happen. Either philly gets Dame or Philly gets Beal. There will be no inbetween. The dude has too many years on his contract, he has no choice but to come back. Philly is not going to trade him for anyone other than Dame or Beal. I'm sure this all ends up with him staying in Philly. He wont miss games for this season.

You know this isn’t true. And no matter how many times you say it doesn’t make it more true.

Um, it's already been reported that Morey will not accept a trade proposal unless they get Dame. So I'm just repeating facts.

[DeBlazerRiddem]

There isn't an issue in Philly. We all know what's going to happen. Either philly gets Dame or Philly gets Beal. There will be no inbetween. The dude has too many years on his contract, he has no choice but to come back. Philly is not going to trade him for anyone other than Dame or Beal. I'm sure this all ends up with him staying in Philly. He wont miss games for this season.

You know this isn’t true. And no matter how many times you say it doesn’t make it more true.

Um, it's already been reported that Morey will not accept a trade proposal unless they get Dame. So I'm just repeating facts.

Something being reported does not make it fact. We are in 2021, that should be pretty common knowledge by now...

[dalton749]

CLE out: Rubio, Sexton, Okoro
CLE in: Simmons

PHI out: Simmons, mins
PHI in: Rubio, Sexton, Dort, Kenrich

OKC out: Dort, Kenrich
OKC in: Okoro

If the Cavs trade for Simmons, it's to win now. In which case they need more of a plan at SG than Denzel Valentine and Dylan Windler.

How’s this for a fun alternative:

Philly out: Simmons, maxey
Philly in: vanvleet, Hield, raps 2nd

Philly gets a backcourt

Cavs out: sexton
Cavs in: Halliburton

Cavs get a better fit and don’t have to pay up yet

Kings out: Halliburton, Hield, Bagley
Kings in: Simmons, maxey

Kings get their guy

Raps out: vanvleet, 2nd
Raps in: sexton, Bagley

Raps go younger

[Foshan]

CLE out: Rubio, Sexton, Okoro
CLE in: Simmons

PHI out: Simmons, mins
PHI in: Rubio, Sexton, Dort, Kenrich

OKC out: Dort, Kenrich
OKC in: Okoro

If the Cavs trade for Simmons, it's to win now. In which case they need more of a plan at SG than Denzel Valentine and Dylan Windler.

How’s this for a fun alternative:

Philly out: Simmons, maxey
Philly in: vanvleet, Hield, raps 2nd

Philly gets a backcourt

Cavs out: sexton
Cavs in: Halliburton

Cavs get a better fit and don’t have to pay up yet

Kings out: Halliburton, Hield, Bagley
Kings in: Simmons, maxey

Kings get their guy

Raps out: vanvleet, 2nd
Raps in: sexton, Bagley

Raps go younger

This would be bad return for Simmons alone, not sure why we'd add Maxey in to just make the event more painful.

[Foshan]

You know this isn’t true. And no matter how many times you say it doesn’t make it more true.

Um, it's already been reported that Morey will not accept a trade proposal unless they get Dame. So I'm just repeating facts.

Something being reported does not make it fact. We are in 2021, that should be pretty common knowledge by now...

This is the second near 100 page thread (4th on the philly board) that is driven by people taking what is reported/tweeted as fact. The only thing that you might argue does not add pages is when someone's tweet is retracted being proved wrong. That maybe earns a post or two, and is generally ignored by those who (for example) would really want Maxey to be moved with Simmons even though it would make zero sense for Maxey as a player, or Philly as a team... but that one tweet that one time...

[jbk1234]

There isn't an issue in Philly. We all know what's going to happen. Either philly gets Dame or Philly gets Beal. There will be no inbetween. The dude has too many years on his contract, he has no choice but to come back. Philly is not going to trade him for anyone other than Dame or Beal. I'm sure this all ends up with him staying in Philly. He wont miss games for this season.

Hanging on to a guy who's unhappy being there, and who you want to move on from, for four years, unless one of two players is made available for trade, when there's a good possibility they won't ever be made available for that player, sounds like an awesome plan. Hard to see what could go wrong really.

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[toooskies]

There isn't an issue in Philly. We all know what's going to happen. Either philly gets Dame or Philly gets Beal. There will be no inbetween. The dude has too many years on his contract, he has no choice but to come back. Philly is not going to trade him for anyone other than Dame or Beal. I'm sure this all ends up with him staying in Philly. He wont miss games for this season.

Hanging on to a guy who's unhappy being there, and who you want to move on from, for four years, unless one of two players is made available for trade, when there's a good possibility they won't ever be made available for that player, sounds like an awesome plan. Hard to see what could go wrong really.

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It does stand to reason, though, that Morey would strongly prefer a young flippable asset like Halliburton or Mobley over future picks and controversial starters like Hield or Sexton.

[Godaddycurse]

Philly trades: Harris, Simmons
Philly receives: Rubio, Beal, Bertans

Cleveland trades: Love, Rubio, Mobley, Osman
Cleveland receives: Simmons, KP

Dallas trades: KP, Green
Dallas receives: Harris

Washington trades: Beal, Bertans
Washington receives: Osman, Love, Mobley, Green

Why for Philly: get Beal for Simmons in exchange for downgrading from Harris
Why for Cleveland: goes all-in to win now and form a frontcourt that fits well offensively with simmons, w/ allen as defensive anchor on bench
Why for Dallas: upgrade frontcourt
Why for washington: rebuild with a blue chipper in mobley

Embiid
Bertans
Green
Beal
Rubio

KP
Markkanen
Simmons
Sexton
Garland

Kleber
Harris
DFS
THJ
Doncic

Add picks as needed for teams (CLE protected 1st to washington?)

[NYG]

His last year isn't guaranteed. In any event, if one of the firsts is for dumping Cedi, the Cavs just keep him. He was awful last year, but the season before he shot .383 from 3 and was the only Cavs starter with positive defensive numbers. If the Cavs are trading for Simmons, then they really should be looking to move Okoro for more of a shooter anyway.

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If you would rather use Okoro than Cedi/distant lotto first I think Cleveland is giving up additional value, but if you want to pay more I fail to see how that would be a problem. Philly could flip him for something else interesting easier than Cedi/first. Or just flip him for a similar 1st and pocket the money savings.

But obviously Cedi is being valued negatively in the deal and I assumed Cleveland would rather move negative salary and another protected pick over moving a prospect they seem to still believe in. If they are worried about roster balance sure seems like they could flip Okoro for a shooter on their own.

But Cleveland has to add salary beyond Rubio/Sexton and Osman feels like the logical choice even with his negative value.

I'd rather trade Okoro to a third team, with or without Cedi, and get a starting caliber shooter back. But no, I wouldn't add a first to dump a bench player making less than $10M per who has shown he's capable of playing up to that contract in the past. That's very poor asset management.

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Houston would need to add a guy to make it work cap wise, but...

Eric Gordon, Danuel House and DJ Augustin for Kevin Love and Isaac Okoro?

They could legally add in a Simmons for Sexton/Rubio element and have it work cap wise too.

[rzzzzz]

Hanging on to a guy who's unhappy being there, and who you want to move on from, for four years, unless one of two players is made available for trade, when there's a good possibility they won't ever be made available for that player, sounds like an awesome plan. Hard to see what could go wrong really.

Morey ain’t going to trade him for a bag of beans, no matter how many declarations Rich Paul leaks out. Without Simmons, Philly already have a roster of “complimentary” players for Embiid (if Doc will play them) so that just adding more doesn’t do much. Definitely no reason to take other franchises bloated contract mistakes off their hands. And draft futures are just as valuable months from now, plus not valued in a win now situation, except as part of a trade for someone who actually does move the needle. No, it doesn’t have to be Dame or Beal, though its worth checking out their situation in a couple of months. I’m looking at a couple of small market franchises who will not get the chance at signing an all star free agent, but who might acquire a young three time all star signed to a long contract, once they decide what promising young talent they just refuse to trade is actually slightly redundant. We’ll see how it shakes out.

[gambitx777]

Can we just admit that dame and Beal are way way more valuable than Simmons considering the situation .

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[Bowdystuda]

If Toronto is sold on Simmons then What about something around...


TO TORONTO: Ben Simmons, Tyrese Haliburton and Seth Curry.

Haliburton-TrentJr-OG-Simmons-Birch
Flynn-Dragic-Barnes-Boucher-Precious



TO PHILLY: Fred VanVleet, Buddy Hield and Marvin Bagley Jr

VanVleet-Hield-Harris-Bagley-Embiid
Maxey-Thybulle-Green-Korkmaz-Drummond



TO SACRAMENTO: Pascal Siakam, Freddie Gillespie and Philadelphia 1st round pick top 3 protected 2023.

Fox-Davis-Barnes-Siakam-Holmes
Mitchell-James-Harkless-Gillespie-Thompson

You got to be out of your mind

It’s a hang out the phone from Sixers immediately. They are not giving up Simmons plus cheap Curry for FVV , Hield and bagley.

1. Hield is not that much better than Curry but cost 2.5 more.
2. Bagley won’t crack the rotation
3. FVV could start. …maybe not sure before Maxey surplants him once he gets regular minutes

What how exactly does this make Sixers better

Cut out Sixers from the deal

And do the Haliburton/Bagley/Hield for Siakam/FVV. trade as main package Raps fans would probably say no to that deal as well well.

Well I have a few issues with your points.

Fred Vanvleet could start? You arent serious are you? Maxey looked good in summer league. But that's what it is. Summer league. VanVleet pretty much averaged 20/6/4 last year and is a NBA champ and still young at 27. Also had almost 2 steals a game and 37% from 3 which is Needed to space the floor with Joel. He will start lol.

The Hield point I kind of get because of the contract but he did almost average 17/5/4 with 39% from 3 last year in Sacramento and is also not old at 28. Curry was 13/3/2 still good numbers but not as all around as Buddy but the 8 million per year for Seth is nice.

Unless Tobias starts at PF which he might, but I always watched him as a SF for years, then Bagley starts for sure. Philly has no bigs that dont play center. Bagley has issues with Sacramento but who hasn't. Maybe he leaves and flourishes as a former 2nd overall pick only a couple of years ago. But remember, the dude did drop 14 and 7 last year on only 26 minutes. Who else is playing power forward on Philly ahead of Bagley? Scott and Niang? Maybe you are higher on them then I am. Bagley is also only 22 with tons of potential.

This trade helps Philadelphia balance their roster around Joel and also space the floor. VanVleet at 37%, Hield at 39% and even Bagley hit at 34% as a big as a 21 year old. This allows Joel to do his thing down low and kick it to good shooters. Also losing 27 points per game and adding 51 ppg will help scoring and options for the coach. This gives Philly a deep team that can doesn't have to let Joel do everything. VanVleet-Hield-Harris-Bagley-Embiid is so deep with spacing, especially if Bagley taps into potential it is crazy. Also everyone is still young enough to have a 5-7 year run with Embiid as the centerpiece.

Philly would be set with an MVP candidate and a super deep supporting cast. Vanvleet, Harris and Hield have been close to being all stars before. Imagine having that with an MVP candidate and a former 2nd overall pick with potential in your starting 5.

Let's also not forget that Simmons value has taken a hit.

[mademan]

Hanging on to a guy who's unhappy being there, and who you want to move on from, for four years, unless one of two players is made available for trade, when there's a good possibility they won't ever be made available for that player, sounds like an awesome plan. Hard to see what could go wrong really.

Morey ain’t going to trade him for a bag of beans, no matter how many declarations Rich Paul leaks out. Without Simmons, Philly already have a roster of “complimentary” players for Embiid (if Doc will play them) so that just adding more doesn’t do much. Definitely no reason to take other franchises bloated contract mistakes off their hands. And draft futures are just as valuable months from now, plus not valued in a win now situation, except as part of a trade for someone who actually does move the needle. No, it doesn’t have to be Dame or Beal, though its worth checking out their situation in a couple of months. I’m looking at a couple of small market franchises who will not get the chance at signing an all star free agent, but who might acquire a young three time all star signed to a long contract, once they decide what promising young talent they just refuse to trade is actually slightly redundant. We’ll see how it shakes out.

I mean Harden, in the same scenario (signed for 2 years, asking out) was traded for what amounts to be a pick package...and he's one of a few guys who has a claim for best player in the league. Ben Simmons is nowhere near as good, has also demanded out and has already leaked he wont be coming to camp. He probably will as it's an empty threat, but i think you need to readjust your expectations.

Simmons/Rich Paul have made it very clear they dont want to be in Philly. All Simmons has to do is act like Harden did a year ago and Morey's hand will be forced.

[rzzzzz]

Simmons/Rich Paul have made it very clear they dont want to be in Philly. All Simmons has to do is act like Harden did a year ago and Morey's hand will be forced.

Shaq and Chuck have pretty much made lunch meat of Rich Paul’s leaked declarations to the press. Not to say he can’t still sit out, but he ain’t acting from a position of strength. I think Philly will give Morey at least until the trade deadline if he wants it. By then, in the midst of competition and dysfunction, somewhere, there will be at least some chance of opportunity.