Masai: We have a Young Team and there will be Growing Pains

[ConSarnit]

Our last 3 home records. ~80% Winning percentage. Huge difference.
32-9
34-7
26-10

>Do you now many NBA players that were stuck at home in Canada for 5 months without access to a gym? Meanwhile 'Florida' and other states were still open.
>GTJr has replaced Norm and OG was doing 18 the last 2 months scratching the surface. Both are clearly ready for bigger roles. GTjr will gladly deputize as the number one option (if FVV collaborates ) until Pascal comes back; He is that kind of a scorer.
>Not to repeat myself we have already proven that we can win without Kyle and Boucher has replaced Serge's scoring, 3pt shooting and shot blocking. Last season was post-Ibaka&Gasol and we were right there. We have Nick Nurse.

Man I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm just saying it's a lot of uncertainty ahead. Too many "could be" "should be" thinking here and it's pointless. Also just back to my original statement, this team as constructed has not proven they can win at a sustainable level. They will have all the opportunity to do so moving forward.

I'm just stating facts. Some of the replies here are just speaking what they want into existance.

Me I am just using ALL the evidence, to make a rational projection of 21/22(that Siakam injury is the variable ..).
If we were the Detroit Pistons, I would not be here claiming to be a TOP5 team next season.

The evidence shows that if GTJ is our #1 option for any length of time we will be one of (if not the worst) offenses in the league. He’s a high volume 3pt shooter who does little else on offense. He can’t create for others nor does he get to the rim or score from anywhere else on the floor.

If GTJ takes the keys to our offense during Siakam’s hiatus we will be right there with DET.

[720]

A treadmill team is a team that’s too good to get a high lottery pick and not good enough to become legitimate championship contenders.

We lack the elite shot creating blue chip prospect (Jalen Green, Cade Cunningham) that many young rebuilding teams have/desire that can one day grow to lead their teams to becoming Championship contenders.

Scottie is a fun prospect to have but he’s sorta a project when it comes to turning him into that mold or tier of prospect. It might happen, we'll see.

GTJ and Achiuwa while good they don’t have that kind of ceiling.

Siakam can be a great 2nd and 3rd option on an elite team but he can’t be that top 10 player in the league kind of player (at least he hasn’t shown he can).

Fred is flawed because he can’t finish around the rim at an efficient rate.

So in the end it makes sense why many people here are saying we’re treadmill or in no mans land despite how young we are.

Makes sense, for example the pacers are young, but do any of us think they’re NOT treadmill? lol

The Wolves have that guy but have been a treadmill team during his entire career. We spent years on the treadmill before our core players were good enough to become dependable on a contending team. You can view certain types of treadmilling as being extended development.

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That has more to do with an incompetent front office and an ever changing coaching staff than anything else.

Also with star big men you need a secondary star at that forward/guard spot to truly take another step (look at AD in New Orleans). It worked for a little bit with Jimmy Butler before he had a problem with players and front office (again goes back to incompetent front office).

[ash_k]

Man I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm just saying it's a lot of uncertainty ahead. Too many "could be" "should be" thinking here and it's pointless. Also just back to my original statement, this team as constructed has not proven they can win at a sustainable level. They will have all the opportunity to do so moving forward.

I'm just stating facts. Some of the replies here are just speaking what they want into existance.

Me I am just using ALL the evidence, to make a rational projection of 21/22(that Siakam injury is the variable ..).
If we were the Detroit Pistons, I would not be here claiming to be a TOP5 team next season.

The evidence shows that if GTJ is our #1 option for any length of time we will be one of (if not the worst) offenses in the league. He’s a high volume 3pt shooter who does little else on offense. He can’t create for others nor does he get to the rim or score from anywhere else on the floor.

If GTJ takes the keys to our offense during Siakam’s hiatus we will be right there with DET.

I know with a bench like
Flynn
Dragic
Barnes
Precious (or starting 5 for Scal)
Boucher (or starting 5 for Scal)
Shooting Svi
Yuta

we will be right there with the Detroit Pistons

[ConSarnit]

What do you think Masai meant when he said "trust me, sometimes it's gonna be tough to watch" then? Because pro sports executives never say that about their team before the season even starts if they expect to be back in the playoffs. He is clearly setting expectations for the realistic possibility of another non-competitive season.

It means there's going to be more incidents of young guys making mistakes that will make it difficult to watch. That doesn't invalidate anything about the expectations I described above.

Realistically, map out the rotation for the upcoming season. That comment applies most to Barnes. You can also count Flynn to some degree, assuming Dragic gets traded, despite him being a Soph and already looking more polished.

The rest of the guys who will see regular minutes aren't going to be really young guys getting developmental reps with the big club. FVV, OG, Pascal, Khem, Boucher, Yuta, Precious are going to cannibalize most of the minutes (add Barnes + Flynn = 9 deep). Guys like Wainwright, Dekker and Bonga are the biggest threats to sneak in with spot minutes. Guys like Johnson, Delano, Champagnie are going to be developing in the 905.

I wouldn't read too much into these offhand comments Masai makes, focus on the the actual roster construction.

You can keep denying the reality that we likely won't be competitive this year all you want. Masai literally said "We are not a team of now, there will be growing pains. Trust me, sometimes it's gonna be tough to watch." He's not mostly referring to Barnes as you claim, he's saying straight up this is not a team of now. And again, pro sports executives don't make statements like "sometimes it's gonna be tough to watch," if the expectation around the organization is that this will be a competitive playoff team.

In regards to you saying focus on the actual roster construction, I still see a roster that did not address their 2 biggest holes that really held them back last season: a go to scorer that can create his own shot in the clutch, and a legit C rotation. I'm sure Precious will develop into a great C as he is still very young with a lot of upside, but if we're looking at just this season we have Birch/Precious, none of whom are great rim protectors or floor spacers. The ability to guard top rim threat bigs like Embiid, and floor spacing were the 2 biggest things Gasol and Ibaka brought to the table respectively.

And in regards to a go to scorer who can create his own shot in the clutch, Pascal/FVV/OG/Trent all are not that type of player. Even though we are returning to Toronto I still think this team will likely end up in the lottery this season due to not having enough shot creation, floor spacing and rim protection, problems that are all likely to carry over from last season.

I think most people are ignoring the fact that we may have one of the worst (starting) C rotations in the league.

Birch - 28 and a journeyman, good backup

Precious - 21 with good upside but still needs a lot of developing

As it stands right now we don’t really have a legit starting quality C, and if you were to rank Birch amongst starters he’s probably in the high 20’s.

Our half court scoring won’t be pretty and it will get even muddier if we give Barnes a chance to stretch his legs.

No one wants to see losses rack up but at least the FO has shown they will pivot and try to get a high draft pick if things go south. I’d much rather have that then chase the worthless (in my mind) 10th seed.

[Jerry Lucas]

It means there's going to be more incidents of young guys making mistakes that will make it difficult to watch. That doesn't invalidate anything about the expectations I described above.

Realistically, map out the rotation for the upcoming season. That comment applies most to Barnes. You can also count Flynn to some degree, assuming Dragic gets traded, despite him being a Soph and already looking more polished.

The rest of the guys who will see regular minutes aren't going to be really young guys getting developmental reps with the big club. FVV, OG, Pascal, Khem, Boucher, Yuta, Precious are going to cannibalize most of the minutes (add Barnes + Flynn = 9 deep). Guys like Wainwright, Dekker and Bonga are the biggest threats to sneak in with spot minutes. Guys like Johnson, Delano, Champagnie are going to be developing in the 905.

I wouldn't read too much into these offhand comments Masai makes, focus on the the actual roster construction.

You can keep denying the reality that we likely won't be competitive this year all you want. Masai literally said "We are not a team of now, there will be growing pains. Trust me, sometimes it's gonna be tough to watch." He's not mostly referring to Barnes as you claim, he's saying straight up this is not a team of now. And again, pro sports executives don't make statements like "sometimes it's gonna be tough to watch," if the expectation around the organization is that this will be a competitive playoff team.

In regards to you saying focus on the actual roster construction, I still see a roster that did not address their 2 biggest holes that really held them back last season: a go to scorer that can create his own shot in the clutch, and a legit C rotation. I'm sure Precious will develop into a great C as he is still very young with a lot of upside, but if we're looking at just this season we have Birch/Precious, none of whom are great rim protectors or floor spacers. The ability to guard top rim threat bigs like Embiid, and floor spacing were the 2 biggest things Gasol and Ibaka brought to the table respectively.

And in regards to a go to scorer who can create his own shot in the clutch, Pascal/FVV/OG/Trent all are not that type of player. Even though we are returning to Toronto I still think this team will likely end up in the lottery this season due to not having enough shot creation, floor spacing and rim protection, problems that are all likely to carry over from last season.

I think most people are ignoring the fact that we may have one of the worst (starting) C rotations in the league.

Birch - 28 and a journeyman, good backup

Precious - 21 with good upside but still needs a lot of developing

As it stands right now we don’t really have a legit starting quality C, and if you were to rank Birch amongst starters he’s probably in the high 20’s.

Our half court scoring won’t be pretty and it will get even muddier if we give Barnes a chance to stretch his legs.

No one wants to see losses rack up but at least the FO has shown they will pivot and try to get a high draft pick if things go south. I’d much rather have that then chase the worthless (in my mind) 10th seed.

Exactly, and at this point it's well known that in the modern NBA, the vast majority of teams with a bad half court offense are not competitive. It's for this reason that Barnes needs to "stretch his legs" in the half court as you put it, as much as possible for his development.

The half court offense won't be good regardless. You can tell by looking at the team on paper, and on top of that Masai alluded to it himself in this interview. I'd guess he isn't referring to the defense when it comes to his statement that "sometimes it's gonna be tough to watch," because Nurse demands respectable defense from the guys he gives minutes to. This team just won't be able to score, we're probably going to be one of the lowest scoring teams in the league.

[Chilly Most]

It means there's going to be more incidents of young guys making mistakes that will make it difficult to watch. That doesn't invalidate anything about the expectations I described above.

Realistically, map out the rotation for the upcoming season. That comment applies most to Barnes. You can also count Flynn to some degree, assuming Dragic gets traded, despite him being a Soph and already looking more polished.

The rest of the guys who will see regular minutes aren't going to be really young guys getting developmental reps with the big club. FVV, OG, Pascal, Khem, Boucher, Yuta, Precious are going to cannibalize most of the minutes (add Barnes + Flynn = 9 deep). Guys like Wainwright, Dekker and Bonga are the biggest threats to sneak in with spot minutes. Guys like Johnson, Delano, Champagnie are going to be developing in the 905.

I wouldn't read too much into these offhand comments Masai makes, focus on the the actual roster construction.

You can keep denying the reality that we likely won't be competitive this year all you want. Masai literally said "We are not a team of now, there will be growing pains. Trust me, sometimes it's gonna be tough to watch." He's not mostly referring to Barnes as you claim, he's saying straight up this is not a team of now. And again, pro sports executives don't make statements like "sometimes it's gonna be tough to watch," if the expectation around the organization is that this will be a competitive playoff team.

In regards to you saying focus on the actual roster construction, I still see a roster that did not address their 2 biggest holes that really held them back last season: a go to scorer that can create his own shot in the clutch, and a legit C rotation. I'm sure Precious will develop into a great C as he is still very young with a lot of upside, but if we're looking at just this season we have Birch/Precious, none of whom are great rim protectors or floor spacers. The ability to guard top rim threat bigs like Embiid, and floor spacing were the 2 biggest things Gasol and Ibaka brought to the table respectively.

And in regards to a go to scorer who can create his own shot in the clutch, Pascal/FVV/OG/Trent all are not that type of player. Even though we are returning to Toronto I still think this team will likely end up in the lottery this season due to not having enough shot creation, floor spacing and rim protection, problems that are all likely to carry over from last season.

I think most people are ignoring the fact that we may have one of the worst (starting) C rotations in the league.

Birch - 28 and a journeyman, good backup

Precious - 21 with good upside but still needs a lot of developing

As it stands right now we don’t really have a legit starting quality C, and if you were to rank Birch amongst starters he’s probably in the high 20’s.

Our half court scoring won’t be pretty and it will get even muddier if we give Barnes a chance to stretch his legs.

No one wants to see losses rack up but at least the FO has shown they will pivot and try to get a high draft pick if things go south. I’d much rather have that then chase the worthless (in my mind) 10th seed.

With a decent center rotation the Raptors could be a top 4-6 team in the East.

What about Jahlil Okafor? Nets just waived him. He has underperformed in his NBA career but Toronto could be the shot in the arm that his career needs right now. He can score in the post and with a bit more effort could be a decent defender. I believe he is 6'9 1/2 barefoot. Only would cost the vet minimum and if he doesn't prove to be good enough could have an easy out contract.

[Jerry Lucas]

You can keep denying the reality that we likely won't be competitive this year all you want. Masai literally said "We are not a team of now, there will be growing pains. Trust me, sometimes it's gonna be tough to watch." He's not mostly referring to Barnes as you claim, he's saying straight up this is not a team of now. And again, pro sports executives don't make statements like "sometimes it's gonna be tough to watch," if the expectation around the organization is that this will be a competitive playoff team.

In regards to you saying focus on the actual roster construction, I still see a roster that did not address their 2 biggest holes that really held them back last season: a go to scorer that can create his own shot in the clutch, and a legit C rotation. I'm sure Precious will develop into a great C as he is still very young with a lot of upside, but if we're looking at just this season we have Birch/Precious, none of whom are great rim protectors or floor spacers. The ability to guard top rim threat bigs like Embiid, and floor spacing were the 2 biggest things Gasol and Ibaka brought to the table respectively.

And in regards to a go to scorer who can create his own shot in the clutch, Pascal/FVV/OG/Trent all are not that type of player. Even though we are returning to Toronto I still think this team will likely end up in the lottery this season due to not having enough shot creation, floor spacing and rim protection, problems that are all likely to carry over from last season.

I think most people are ignoring the fact that we may have one of the worst (starting) C rotations in the league.

Birch - 28 and a journeyman, good backup

Precious - 21 with good upside but still needs a lot of developing

As it stands right now we don’t really have a legit starting quality C, and if you were to rank Birch amongst starters he’s probably in the high 20’s.

Our half court scoring won’t be pretty and it will get even muddier if we give Barnes a chance to stretch his legs.

No one wants to see losses rack up but at least the FO has shown they will pivot and try to get a high draft pick if things go south. I’d much rather have that then chase the worthless (in my mind) 10th seed.

With a decent center rotation the Raptors could be a top 4-6 team in the East.

What about Jahlil Okafor? Nets just waived him. He has underperformed in his NBA career but Toronto could be the shot in the arm that his career needs right now. He can score in the post and with a bit more effort could be a decent defender. I believe he is 6'9 1/2 barefoot. Only would cost the vet minimum and if he doesn't prove to be good enough could have an easy out contract.

Lmao quality first post, Okafor is a huge bust and he wouldn't move the needle at all compared to the 2 Cs we have right now. If anything he would make the C rotation worse.

[djsunyc]

can't develop defense for okafor. he's too slow. look at how bad monroe was here.

[OhCanada1091]

can't develop defense for okafor. he's too slow. look at how bad monroe was here.

Agreed. We dont need low post scoring from our C position. Birch, Achiuwa, Boucher, Barnes, Anunoby are much better options.

[OhCanada1091]

Not sure why we didn't draft a Center this year. Really had a good opportunity to get a player in our system with this deep draft.

[Clay Davis]

A treadmill team is a team that’s too good to get a high lottery pick and not good enough to become legitimate championship contenders.

We lack the elite shot creating blue chip prospect (Jalen Green, Cade Cunningham) that many young rebuilding teams have/desire that can one day grow to lead their teams to becoming Championship contenders.

Scottie is a fun prospect to have but he’s sorta a project when it comes to turning him into that mold or tier of prospect. It might happen, we'll see.

GTJ and Achiuwa while good they don’t have that kind of ceiling.

Siakam can be a great 2nd and 3rd option on an elite team but he can’t be that top 10 player in the league kind of player (at least he hasn’t shown he can).

Fred is flawed because he can’t finish around the rim at an efficient rate.

So in the end it makes sense why many people here are saying we’re treadmill or in no mans land despite how young we are.

Makes sense, for example the pacers are young, but do any of us think they’re NOT treadmill? lol

The Wolves have that guy but have been a treadmill team during his entire career. We spent years on the treadmill before our core players were good enough to become dependable on a contending team. You can view certain types of treadmilling as being extended development.

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That has more to do with an incompetent front office and an ever changing coaching staff than anything else.

Also with star big men you need a secondary star at that forward/guard spot to truly take another step (look at AD in New Orleans). It worked for a little bit with Jimmy Butler before he had a problem with players and front office (again goes back to incompetent front office).

The point is that escaping the treadmill means having a well-rounded roster and a winning culture. Sacrificing two of those to get one piece just means taking two steps back to go one step forward. Our role-players wouldn't have been capable of performing on a contending team were it not for their repeated failed attempts at making it out of the East.

[KrazyP]

A treadmill team is a team that’s too good to get a high lottery pick and not good enough to become legitimate championship contenders.

The problem here is that your broad definition describes over half the teams in the NBA. Should 75% of the league be tanking/rebuilding for high lottery picks?

[720]

The Wolves have that guy but have been a treadmill team during his entire career. We spent years on the treadmill before our core players were good enough to become dependable on a contending team. You can view certain types of treadmilling as being extended development.

Sent from my moto g(8) power lite using RealGM mobile app

That has more to do with an incompetent front office and an ever changing coaching staff than anything else.

Also with star big men you need a secondary star at that forward/guard spot to truly take another step (look at AD in New Orleans). It worked for a little bit with Jimmy Butler before he had a problem with players and front office (again goes back to incompetent front office).

The point is that escaping the treadmill means having a well-rounded roster and a winning culture. Sacrificing two of those to get one piece just means taking two steps back to go one step forward. Our role-players wouldn't have been capable of performing on a contending team were it not for their repeated failed attempts at making it out of the East.

No, escaping the treadmill means having a top 10 player in the league. We wouldn't have won a championship without a superstar player like Kawhi. You can only get such a caliber player through the trade market or the draft. (free agency not an option for us)

Winning culture means very little if you don't have that player to take you over the top (usually a top 5 player sometimes a top 10 player).

That's why a lot of people in this tread are saying we're treadmill. None of our players look like or project to be a top 10 caliber player now or in the future. Barnes and OG are interesting but it's unlikely they become those players (hope I'm wrong about that though). It's better to add such a talent through the draft and those two are young enough that when such a player is finally on the team they will grow with said player.

Personally I think we are capable of getting a top 5 pick this upcoming season. We'll just have to wait and see.

[Clay Davis]

That has more to do with an incompetent front office and an ever changing coaching staff than anything else.

Also with star big men you need a secondary star at that forward/guard spot to truly take another step (look at AD in New Orleans). It worked for a little bit with Jimmy Butler before he had a problem with players and front office (again goes back to incompetent front office).

The point is that escaping the treadmill means having a well-rounded roster and a winning culture. Sacrificing two of those to get one piece just means taking two steps back to go one step forward. Our role-players wouldn't have been capable of performing on a contending team were it not for their repeated failed attempts at making it out of the East.

No, escaping the treadmill means having a top 10 player in the league. We wouldn't have won a championship without a superstar player like Kawhi. You can only get such a caliber player through the trade market or the draft. (free agency not an option for us)

Winning culture means very little if you don't have that player to take you over the top (usually a top 5 player sometimes a top 10 player).

That's why a lot of people in this tread are saying we're treadmill. None of our players look like or project to be a top 10 caliber player now or in the future. Barnes and OG are interesting but it's unlikely they become those players (hope I'm wrong about that though). It's better to add such a talent through the draft and those two are young enough that when such a player is finally on the team they will grow with said player.

Personally I think we are capable of getting a top 5 pick this upcoming season. We'll just have to wait and see.

Not necessarily dude. The Wiz arguably have a top 10 player. So did the Pelicans. Now that I think about it, the Celtics do too. All of em are/were on the treadmill.

[720]

The point is that escaping the treadmill means having a well-rounded roster and a winning culture. Sacrificing two of those to get one piece just means taking two steps back to go one step forward. Our role-players wouldn't have been capable of performing on a contending team were it not for their repeated failed attempts at making it out of the East.

No, escaping the treadmill means having a top 10 player in the league. We wouldn't have won a championship without a superstar player like Kawhi. You can only get such a caliber player through the trade market or the draft. (free agency not an option for us)

Winning culture means very little if you don't have that player to take you over the top (usually a top 5 player sometimes a top 10 player).

That's why a lot of people in this tread are saying we're treadmill. None of our players look like or project to be a top 10 caliber player now or in the future. Barnes and OG are interesting but it's unlikely they become those players (hope I'm wrong about that though). It's better to add such a talent through the draft and those two are young enough that when such a player is finally on the team they will grow with said player.

Personally I think we are capable of getting a top 5 pick this upcoming season. We'll just have to wait and see.

Not necessarily dude. The Wiz arguably have a top 10 player. So did the Pelicans. Now that I think about it, the Celtics do too. All of em are/were on the treadmill.

How are the Celtics on a treadmill? They have a top 15-20 player in Tatum who is only 22 years old who is already putting up 26, 7 and 6. He is already so good and has room to grow. The Celtic's ceiling will be determined by Tatum and Brown's growth.

I literally said to not be on the treadmill you need a high level shot creator prospect. He is one of the best ones in the league.

Do we have anyone even close on our team?

[WuTang_CMB]

Not sure why we didn't draft a Center this year. Really had a good opportunity to get a player in our system with this deep draft.

Cuz we got Precious. He’s our 5 of the future and just needs solid development

[Clay Davis]

No, escaping the treadmill means having a top 10 player in the league. We wouldn't have won a championship without a superstar player like Kawhi. You can only get such a caliber player through the trade market or the draft. (free agency not an option for us)

Winning culture means very little if you don't have that player to take you over the top (usually a top 5 player sometimes a top 10 player).

That's why a lot of people in this tread are saying we're treadmill. None of our players look like or project to be a top 10 caliber player now or in the future. Barnes and OG are interesting but it's unlikely they become those players (hope I'm wrong about that though). It's better to add such a talent through the draft and those two are young enough that when such a player is finally on the team they will grow with said player.

Personally I think we are capable of getting a top 5 pick this upcoming season. We'll just have to wait and see.

Not necessarily dude. The Wiz arguably have a top 10 player. So did the Pelicans. Now that I think about it, the Celtics do too. All of em are/were on the treadmill.

How are the Celtics on a treadmill? They have a top 15-20 player in Tatum who is only 22 years old who is already putting up 26, 7 and 6. He is already so good and has room to grow. The Celtic's ceiling will be determined by Tatum and Brown's growth.

I literally said to not be on the treadmill you need a high level shot creator prospect. He is one of the best ones in the league.

Do we have anyone even close on our team?

Okay I forgot how young Tatum and Brown are lol. Tatum is definitely high level, so is Brown, but despite their presence on the team the Celtics haven't felt like true contenders in the last few years and it still feels like they're like two or three pieces away from being contenders. Even then, I don't see them being better than the Nets, the Bucks, or the 76ers within the next two years or the Hawks after that.

[720]

Not necessarily dude. The Wiz arguably have a top 10 player. So did the Pelicans. Now that I think about it, the Celtics do too. All of em are/were on the treadmill.

How are the Celtics on a treadmill? They have a top 15-20 player in Tatum who is only 22 years old who is already putting up 26, 7 and 6. He is already so good and has room to grow. The Celtic's ceiling will be determined by Tatum and Brown's growth.

I literally said to not be on the treadmill you need a high level shot creator prospect. He is one of the best ones in the league.

Do we have anyone even close on our team?

Okay I forgot how young Tatum and Brown are lol. Tatum is definitely high level, so is Brown, but despite their presence on the team the Celtics haven't felt like true contenders in the last few years and it still feels like they're like two or three pieces away from being contenders. Even then, I don't see them being better than the Nets, the Bucks, or the 76ers within the next two years or the Hawks after that.

The Celtics have two guys in their early 20s putting up monster numbers and both are locked up in long term deals. Those are the kind of pieces every rebuilding team would want on their roster. That's the kind of core many people here in this thread want. Give Masai a Tatum and Brown like duo and see what kind of magic he would pull off.

[Harcore Fenton Mun]

With Stevens as GM and Idoka as head coach...it's uh, going to be interesting.

[C_Money]

Shocking comments from our leader Masai tbh. Ask Fred and Pascal if they think we’re going to suck this year. The answer is no.