Ben Simmons Thread #2 (“Don’t make me contact Howard” Edition)

[Mamba4Goat]

I can’t wait for Simmons to be a Wolf.

[shangrila]

13. “I don’t know why anyone in the league puts the value on D’Angelo Russell that they do.” Doogie said, “who in the league does that?” and Windhorst said, “Gersson, apparently.”

As in Rosas overvalues him?

I guess I could see that.

[Klomp]

8. “It’s one thing to not be able to shoot well (like Giannis) versus being afraid to shoot. Ben isn’t liking to step into the batter’s box. Giannis has skill limitations, but he won’t let them hold him back, but Ben’s skill limitations very clearly hold him back. If I remember clearly, in a seven game series against Atlanta, he took three shots in the fourth quarter. How can anyone say that’s a championship performance?”

I've never understood this criticism of Simmons. You want shooters to shoot and non-shooters not to shoot, right? Are people critical of Rudy Gobert for never shooting jump shots? Why is he so afraid to shoot? Where's the pressure on him for not stepping into the batter's box?

[Klomp]

13. “I don’t know why anyone in the league puts the value on D’Angelo Russell that they do.” Doogie said, “who in the league does that?” and Windhorst said, “Gersson, apparently.”

The Lakers did, when they drafted him No. 2 overall.
The Nets did, when trading their all-time leading scorer for him.
Adam Silver did, when choosing him as an All-Star.
The Warriors did, when getting him in return for Kevin Durant.

[Dewey]

13. “I don’t know why anyone in the league puts the value on D’Angelo Russell that they do.” Doogie said, “who in the league does that?” and Windhorst said, “Gersson, apparently.”

The Lakers did, when they drafted him No. 2 overall.
The Nets did, when trading their all-time leading scorer for him.
Adam Silver did, when choosing him as an All-Star.
The Warriors did, when getting him in return for Kevin Durant.

Right or wrong - Everyone of these analysts wanna act like they know more than the next when given the opportunity. Reasons are right here why they are are not GM’s, and instead, manufacturing ongoing narratives to try and be relevant.

[Domejandro]

I don’t want to backseat mod but I’d have nuked this topic from orbit.

There’s nothing left to discuss. Everyone has established what they’d pay or what his value is, and since there’s no way to measure that objectively there’s no debating facts, just opinions. Which always leads to conflict.

If I do that, if a single Ben Simmons-related tweet drops, multiple threads will get ruined. I very publicly banned Ben Simmons talk from the forum last night, and it immediately bled into other threads. It’s worth compiling all of the hot garbage into one thread, if I am being a bit crass about it.

Plus, it’s kind of unfair for us to permanently ban talk on the most important thing happening in the League, right now. There are good posts, when personal attacks are not in the thread.

[D1SGRUNTL3D]

Morey is in a no win scenario.


Sit with a 37M year paper weight

wait for a non contending team to trade their young aspiring star(s?) on a much cheaper deal which likely will never happen

Accept Minnys offer which I imagine gets weaker and weaker the closer we get to the start of the season. Those dimes and nickels turn to pennies.

[Slim Tubby]

When you think about Ben’s value one (1) year ago to what it is today, Morey has to be pulling his hair out. I’m not pro or con on the Simmons trade but 4 years/$140M has to make a GM/Owner have second thoughts when you factor in how mentally weak he appears to be.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[shangrila]

I don’t want to backseat mod but I’d have nuked this topic from orbit.

There’s nothing left to discuss. Everyone has established what they’d pay or what his value is, and since there’s no way to measure that objectively there’s no debating facts, just opinions. Which always leads to conflict.

If I do that, if a single Ben Simmons-related tweet drops, multiple threads will get ruined. I very publicly banned Ben Simmons talk from the forum last night, and it immediately bled into other threads. It’s worth compiling all of the hot garbage into one thread, if I am being a bit crass about it.

Plus, it’s kind of unfair for us to permanently ban talk on the most important thing happening in the League, right now. There are good posts, when personal attacks are not in the thread.

Fair point.

How about we put all combinations of Simmons' name into that censorship bot that asterisks surprisingly few swear words? I feel that's a good compromise that might help to make the thread a little more interesting too.

[Merc_Porto]

13. “I don’t know why anyone in the league puts the value on D’Angelo Russell that they do.” Doogie said, “who in the league does that?” and Windhorst said, “Gersson, apparently.”

The Lakers did, when they drafted him No. 2 overall.
The Nets did, when trading their all-time leading scorer for him.
Adam Silver did, when choosing him as an All-Star.
The Warriors did, when getting him in return for Kevin Durant.

And they all got rid of him pretty quickly.
Never was considerer part of their future...
Just an asset to throw around for teams that are really not in the discussion to get to the playoffs, leave alone a championship...

[Baseline81]

When you think about Ben’s value one (1) year ago to what it is today, Morey has to be pulling his hair out. I’m not pro or con on the Simmons trade but 4 years/$140M has to make a GM/Owner have second thoughts when you factor in how mentally weak he appears to be.

If I remember correctly, weren't the Wolves willing to deal the 2020 No. 1 overall pick for either Booker or Simmons? And now, Edwards is untouchable, at least in a deal for Simmons.

[jpatrick]

When you think about Ben’s value one (1) year ago to what it is today, Morey has to be pulling his hair out. I’m not pro or con on the Simmons trade but 4 years/$140M has to make a GM/Owner have second thoughts when you factor in how mentally weak he appears to be.

If I remember correctly, weren't the Wolves willing to deal the 2020 No. 1 overall pick for either Booker or Simmons? And now, Edwards is untouchable, at least in a deal for Simmons.

I believe this to be true. Edwards has increased his value since that time. But Simmons’ value has declined significantly. He was consistently considered one of the top 15-20 players in the NBA. Those guys in their early 20s don’t get traded.

[SO_MONEY]

When you think about Ben’s value one (1) year ago to what it is today, Morey has to be pulling his hair out. I’m not pro or con on the Simmons trade but 4 years/$140M has to make a GM/Owner have second thoughts when you factor in how mentally weak he appears to be.

If I remember correctly, weren't the Wolves willing to deal the 2020 No. 1 overall pick for either Booker or Simmons? And now, Edwards is untouchable, at least in a deal for Simmons.

I believe this to be true. Edwards has increased his value since that time. But Simmons’ value has declined significantly. He was consistently considered one of the top 15-20 players in the NBA. Those guys in their early 20s don’t get traded.

Which tells you something about how the team perceived him to offer him and additional incentive for an older, albeit top 10-15 player in Harden... and how the league views him by having that be turned down. Simmons value to at least some extent had declined privately beyond that of public perception. And this has just become more public and declined further, even if we have some stragglers basing his value on past public perception.

[TaylorTag]

When it's all said and done, I think a Beverley, Beasley, McDaniels core package is probably more enticing for Morey than anything else out there. All three guys can play big minutes in the playoffs. All three guys are on good-to-great contracts. I think the biggest question mark is the number of picks and if I am Rosas I do not let that get in the way.

Russilo, who I typically don't like, did an intro segment on his podcast fairly recently and pointed out that most lottery picks even from 2 to 3 years ago are not even part of their drafted team's plans going forward. And it's not because those players were moved for picks or players -- it's just that it is really hard to hit in the NBA draft. Knowing that, is it really wise to be covet draft picks when we're talking about a star player?

Going back to our package. I know a lot of people on here think Prince may be thrown in this trade, but when it comes down to it, i think Rosas and maybe even Finch targeted Prince knowing that McDaniels established himself as a juicy asset in a potential trade this offseason. Prince essentially provides the same output as McDaniels (low-usage 3-point shooter on the wing who brings some versatility defensively).

Prince was and is insurance for McDaniels leaving. He was also a great replacement for Hernangomez but that ruins my narrative a bit.

The only way I see Prince being in this deal is if Morey decides his big trade will happen next offseason, and so taking on Beverley, Prince, McDaniels and picks would give Philly two expirings worth about 28M that can be used to take on a star player next year.

The question again will come down to how many draft picks.

If it is Beverley, Beasley, McDaniels and 3FRP I think Rosas should probably pull the trigger considering all the great points I made above.

If its Beverley, Prince, McDaniels and 4FRP (Think Rosas would prefer the above deal), then it definitely leaves us thin at the 3 but that is a problem I think Rosas is willing to embrace and is made easier if Bolmaro is part of the plans in this hypothetical.

I think however this trade goes it will have to involve McDaniels. That's our carrot that the national media like Bill Simmons is ignorant about when they are spouting takes about Simmons' potential destinations. You could easily argue that McDaniels is a more valuable player right now in crunchtime in the playoffs than Ben Simmons is. It does make we second guess if this Simmons pursuit is worth it, but ultimately I think you have to do it if you are Rosas because opportunities like this come around never and so he has to take his shot. Would be pretty weird if this whole thing blows up because Rosas is unwilling to part with one extra draft pick

[Wolveswin]

When it's all said and done, I think a Beverley, Beasley, McDaniels core package is probably more enticing for Morey than anything else out there. All three guys can play big minutes in the playoffs. All three guys are on good-to-great contracts. I think the biggest question mark is the number of picks and if I am Rosas I do not let that get in the way.

Russilo, who I typically don't like, did an intro segment on his podcast fairly recently and pointed out that most lottery picks even from 2 to 3 years ago are not even part of their drafted team's plans going forward. And it's not because those players were moved for picks or players -- it's just that it is really hard to hit in the NBA draft. Knowing that, is it really wise to be covet draft picks when we're talking about a star player?

Going back to our package. I know a lot of people on here think Prince may be thrown in this trade, but when it comes down to it, i think Rosas and maybe even Finch targeted Prince knowing that McDaniels established himself as a juicy asset in a potential trade this offseason. Prince essentially provides the same output as McDaniels (low-usage 3-point shooter on the wing who brings some versatility defensively).

Prince was and is insurance for McDaniels leaving. He was also a great replacement for Hernangomez but that ruins my narrative a bit.

The only way I see Prince being in this deal is if Morey decides his big trade will happen next offseason, and so taking on Beverley, Prince, McDaniels and picks would give Philly two expirings worth about 28M that can be used to take on a star player next year.

The question again will come down to how many draft picks.

If it is Beverley, Beasley, McDaniels and 3FRP I think Rosas should probably pull the trigger considering all the great points I made above.

If its Beverley, Prince, McDaniels and 4FRP (Think Rosas would prefer the above deal), then it definitely leaves us thin at the 3 but that is a problem I think Rosas is willing to embrace and is made easier if Bolmaro is part of the plans in this hypothetical.

I think however this trade goes it will have to involve McDaniels. That's our carrot that the national media like Bill Simmons is ignorant about when they are spouting takes about Simmons' potential destinations. You could easily argue that McDaniels is a more valuable player right now in crunchtime in the playoffs than Ben Simmons is. It does make we second guess if this Simmons pursuit is worth it, but ultimately I think you have to do it if you are Rosas because opportunities like this come around never and so he has to take his shot. Would be pretty weird if this whole thing blows up because Rosas is unwilling to part with one extra draft pick

I agree with all of this. Only thing I would add…

1) Does Rosas float a deal with even more draft capital and minus McDaniels? McDaniels is worth “more to us” than anyone, and Morey could like having a ton of draft capital, if his eye is on the next trade prize (vet he covets). And, Rosas is win-now, it would be nice to keep McDaniels as the last young piece to develop with Wolves’ core, as he won’t have any picks for quite sometime. McDaniels has at least 1 year of NBA development and history with Wolves roster (both beneficial as Wolves try and not gift 76ers anything close to what Warriors got with a owed Wolves 1st).

2) If McDaniels must be part of the deal, I could see him going to 3rd team for even more draft capital. Not sure Morey sees McDaniels as truly playoff ready player, or as valuable in subsequent trade for vet as more picks might be. Could mean the Wolves trade needs quality draft capital from 3rd team for their youth involved.

[Wolveswin]

^To that point a possible solution…

To OKC (example 3rd team): McDaniels *if it could be Bolmaro instead, great!*

To 76ers: K. Williams (more playable vet from 3rd team) + Beasley + Beverley** + 2025 Philly 1st (from OKC, more valuable to Philly than OKC) + Wolves draft capital (2-3 1sts protections TBD) + Additional draft capital from OKC/3rd team (less if Bolmaro, more if McDaniels)

**Beverley: 4th team for Beverley and more desirable vet guard to 76ers…like Dragic??? Or other? Could even send draft capital to 4th team if needed**

To Wolves: Simmons + Philly filler

[Baseline81]

When it's all said and done, I think a Beverley, Beasley, McDaniels core package is probably more enticing for Morey than anything else out there. All three guys can play big minutes in the playoffs. All three guys are on good-to-great contracts. I think the biggest question mark is the number of picks and if I am Rosas I do not let that get in the way.

Russilo, who I typically don't like, did an intro segment on his podcast fairly recently and pointed out that most lottery picks even from 2 to 3 years ago are not even part of their drafted team's plans going forward. And it's not because those players were moved for picks or players -- it's just that it is really hard to hit in the NBA draft. Knowing that, is it really wise to be covet draft picks when we're talking about a star player?

Going back to our package. I know a lot of people on here think Prince may be thrown in this trade, but when it comes down to it, i think Rosas and maybe even Finch targeted Prince knowing that McDaniels established himself as a juicy asset in a potential trade this offseason. Prince essentially provides the same output as McDaniels (low-usage 3-point shooter on the wing who brings some versatility defensively).

Prince was and is insurance for McDaniels leaving. He was also a great replacement for Hernangomez but that ruins my narrative a bit.

The only way I see Prince being in this deal is if Morey decides his big trade will happen next offseason, and so taking on Beverley, Prince, McDaniels and picks would give Philly two expirings worth about 28M that can be used to take on a star player next year.

The question again will come down to how many draft picks.

If it is Beverley, Beasley, McDaniels and 3FRP I think Rosas should probably pull the trigger considering all the great points I made above.

If its Beverley, Prince, McDaniels and 4FRP (Think Rosas would prefer the above deal), then it definitely leaves us thin at the 3 but that is a problem I think Rosas is willing to embrace and is made easier if Bolmaro is part of the plans in this hypothetical.

I think however this trade goes it will have to involve McDaniels. That's our carrot that the national media like Bill Simmons is ignorant about when they are spouting takes about Simmons' potential destinations. You could easily argue that McDaniels is a more valuable player right now in crunchtime in the playoffs than Ben Simmons is. It does make we second guess if this Simmons pursuit is worth it, but ultimately I think you have to do it if you are Rosas because opportunities like this come around never and so he has to take his shot. Would be pretty weird if this whole thing blows up because Rosas is unwilling to part with one extra draft pick

If that's the price, I'd rather the team look elsewhere. It's far too rich for my blood.

Beverley = Veteran backup on an expiring contract
Beasley = Borderline starter on a good contract (under 25 years old)
McDaniels = Starter on a rookie contract

Additionally, you want to add three first round picks for a player on a maximum contract who would be the third or fourth option most nights? You're having a giggle.

[KGdaBom]

When it's all said and done, I think a Beverley, Beasley, McDaniels core package is probably more enticing for Morey than anything else out there. All three guys can play big minutes in the playoffs. All three guys are on good-to-great contracts. I think the biggest question mark is the number of picks and if I am Rosas I do not let that get in the way.

Russilo, who I typically don't like, did an intro segment on his podcast fairly recently and pointed out that most lottery picks even from 2 to 3 years ago are not even part of their drafted team's plans going forward. And it's not because those players were moved for picks or players -- it's just that it is really hard to hit in the NBA draft. Knowing that, is it really wise to be covet draft picks when we're talking about a star player?

Going back to our package. I know a lot of people on here think Prince may be thrown in this trade, but when it comes down to it, i think Rosas and maybe even Finch targeted Prince knowing that McDaniels established himself as a juicy asset in a potential trade this offseason. Prince essentially provides the same output as McDaniels (low-usage 3-point shooter on the wing who brings some versatility defensively).

Prince was and is insurance for McDaniels leaving. He was also a great replacement for Hernangomez but that ruins my narrative a bit.

The only way I see Prince being in this deal is if Morey decides his big trade will happen next offseason, and so taking on Beverley, Prince, McDaniels and picks would give Philly two expirings worth about 28M that can be used to take on a star player next year.

The question again will come down to how many draft picks.

If it is Beverley, Beasley, McDaniels and 3FRP I think Rosas should probably pull the trigger considering all the great points I made above.

If its Beverley, Prince, McDaniels and 4FRP (Think Rosas would prefer the above deal), then it definitely leaves us thin at the 3 but that is a problem I think Rosas is willing to embrace and is made easier if Bolmaro is part of the plans in this hypothetical.

I think however this trade goes it will have to involve McDaniels. That's our carrot that the national media like Bill Simmons is ignorant about when they are spouting takes about Simmons' potential destinations. You could easily argue that McDaniels is a more valuable player right now in crunchtime in the playoffs than Ben Simmons is. It does make we second guess if this Simmons pursuit is worth it, but ultimately I think you have to do it if you are Rosas because opportunities like this come around never and so he has to take his shot. Would be pretty weird if this whole thing blows up because Rosas is unwilling to part with one extra draft pick

If that's the price, I'd rather the team look elsewhere. It's far too rich for my blood.

You're not much of a Simmons fan so it's going to be too rich for your blood. For people who are Simmons fans they realize that will be what it will cost to get it done. The two factions in this debate.

[Wolveswin]

When it's all said and done, I think a Beverley, Beasley, McDaniels core package is probably more enticing for Morey than anything else out there. All three guys can play big minutes in the playoffs. All three guys are on good-to-great contracts. I think the biggest question mark is the number of picks and if I am Rosas I do not let that get in the way.

Russilo, who I typically don't like, did an intro segment on his podcast fairly recently and pointed out that most lottery picks even from 2 to 3 years ago are not even part of their drafted team's plans going forward. And it's not because those players were moved for picks or players -- it's just that it is really hard to hit in the NBA draft. Knowing that, is it really wise to be covet draft picks when we're talking about a star player?

Going back to our package. I know a lot of people on here think Prince may be thrown in this trade, but when it comes down to it, i think Rosas and maybe even Finch targeted Prince knowing that McDaniels established himself as a juicy asset in a potential trade this offseason. Prince essentially provides the same output as McDaniels (low-usage 3-point shooter on the wing who brings some versatility defensively).

Prince was and is insurance for McDaniels leaving. He was also a great replacement for Hernangomez but that ruins my narrative a bit.

The only way I see Prince being in this deal is if Morey decides his big trade will happen next offseason, and so taking on Beverley, Prince, McDaniels and picks would give Philly two expirings worth about 28M that can be used to take on a star player next year.

The question again will come down to how many draft picks.

If it is Beverley, Beasley, McDaniels and 3FRP I think Rosas should probably pull the trigger considering all the great points I made above.

If its Beverley, Prince, McDaniels and 4FRP (Think Rosas would prefer the above deal), then it definitely leaves us thin at the 3 but that is a problem I think Rosas is willing to embrace and is made easier if Bolmaro is part of the plans in this hypothetical.

I think however this trade goes it will have to involve McDaniels. That's our carrot that the national media like Bill Simmons is ignorant about when they are spouting takes about Simmons' potential destinations. You could easily argue that McDaniels is a more valuable player right now in crunchtime in the playoffs than Ben Simmons is. It does make we second guess if this Simmons pursuit is worth it, but ultimately I think you have to do it if you are Rosas because opportunities like this come around never and so he has to take his shot. Would be pretty weird if this whole thing blows up because Rosas is unwilling to part with one extra draft pick

If that's the price, I'd rather the team look elsewhere. It's far too rich for my blood.

You're not much of a Simmons fan so it's going to be too rich for your blood. For people who are Simmons fans they realize that will be what it will cost to get it done. The two factions in this debate.

I am a Simmons fan and depending on offer, I want to walk from the potential deal. Look elsewhere.

Player I would watch closely is Isaac. Let him come back and prove his health. Yes, if healthy first part of season, he raises his trade value (considerably). But Magic on paper match up better with what Wolves have to offer. They are a non playoff team, not looking to win-now around a Embiid. The offer should not include McDaniels and would be matching expiring contract (Prince), plus probably same or less picks required to acquire Simmons.

[KGdaBom]

If that's the price, I'd rather the team look elsewhere. It's far too rich for my blood.

You're not much of a Simmons fan so it's going to be too rich for your blood. For people who are Simmons fans they realize that will be what it will cost to get it done. The two factions in this debate.

I am a Simmons fan and depending on offer, I want to walk from the potential deal. Look elsewhere.

Player I would watch closely is Isaac. Let him come back and prove his health. Yes, if healthy first part of season, he raises his trade value (considerably). But Magic on paper match up better with what Wolves have to offer. They are a non playoff team, not looking to win-now around a Embiid. The offer should not include McDaniels and would be matching expiring contract (Prince), plus probably same or less picks required to acquire Simmons.

Would you say you're MUCH a Simmons fan? I'm a bigger than most Simmons fan and of course there are prices too rich for my blood also. However, I think the offer proposed by MPLSWolves is probably the minimum it will take to get it done and I'd be willing to pay that price. Now that price wasn't just too rich for Baseline's blood it was far too rich for Baseline's blood so I think my belief that he isn't MUCH of a Simmons fan is reasonable.

As for Isaac I put the chances of him ever being very good again at no better than 10%. If I see him regain his form than I would be interested in him also, but I'm definitely not holding my breath over that and I'd be looking for other options.