Ben Simmons Containment Thread Take 3

[Ballerhogger]

Could LAC really afford to give up both Morris and Bledsoe without getting more than just Simmons?

PG13 for Simmons remains a good trade concept but that locker room would need to be sorted out. Do you keep Doc and Seth?

You cant give up 2nd leading scorer for ben. That will end up in failure.

[Ballerhogger]

if the blazers werent hell bent on CJ+ Lillard id throw in cj for ben swap since both teams benefit from it.

[GutUNC]

Still surprised Rivers hasn't been reprimanded or at least forced to apologize, so that the possibility of running it back is at least most open if they don't get the deal they are looking for

Apologize for what? Being honest? All he said IDK if a Ben is a championship level PG. That’s hardly damning.

The fault is entirely Ben’s. He chose to not dunk a ball from 1 foot away. He is the one who gets rattled and rushes his FT’s. Sure, he can ask out all he wants, but he is in a position of weakness here. If anyone involved on Ben’s side was smart, he would’ve picked a team and Klutch would’ve gone to that team with promises of FA’s in the future if they made a deal for Ben now. That hasn’t happened, and now Ben is welcome to show up, sit out, or fake an injury all year. Who cares. The Sixers aren’t a championship team with or without him, and the only way they can get there is by getting a good return for him.

So we wait.

You have some very good takes on here but this isn’t one of them. Under no circumstances should coaches, management or ownership ever air the dirty laundry in public about a player…ever. There simply is no benefit to anyone involved. It humiliates the player, destroys relationships and absolutely crushes trade value. This is one of the bigger blunders in recent NBA memory.

As for “we wait”, every day that goes by, Ben’s trade value drops and there is no putting the genie back in the bottle at this point. When you also factor in the terrible contract of Harris, bold action is necessary. Fire Morey, fire Rivers and trade Embiid for what might be the biggest rebuild package ever received for a player and let the “process” begin again. Philly, if anything, is a bold city.


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So we're just sayin' stuff now, eh?

[zimpy27]

DEN give Murray+Gordon and get Simmons+Curry+Thybulle
Curry, Thybulle, Porter, Simmons, Jokic -- Campazzo, Morris, Barton, Green, Jeff

MIN give Beasley+McDaniels and get Gordon
DLo, Edwards, Prince, Gordon, KAT -- Beverley, Nowell, Okogie, Vanderbilt, Naz

PHI give Simmons+Curry+Thybulle and get Murray+Beasley+McDaniels
Murray, Beasley, Green, Harris, Embiid -- Maxey, Korkmaz, McDaniels, Niang, Drummond

[jbk1234]

DEN give Murray+Gordon and get Simmons+Curry+Thybulle
Curry, Thybulle, Porter, Simmons, Jokic -- Campazzo, Morris, Barton, Green, Jeff

MIN give Beasley+McDaniels and get Gordon
DLo, Edwards, Prince, Gordon, KAT -- Beverley, Nowell, Okogie, Vanderbilt, Naz

PHI give Simmons+Curry+Thybulle and get Murray+Beasley+McDaniels
Murray, Beasley, Green, Harris, Embiid -- Maxey, Korkmaz, McDaniels, Niang, Drummond

Did the Nuggets extend Gordon yet? I know they were in talks with both MPJ and Gordon. If so, there could be some BYC issues.

I don't hate it tbh, but I'm not sold on Demver trading Murray for Simmons when they already have Gordon. Simmons is the better player, but I'm not sold that he's worth giving up Murray better.

At a minimum, it needs to be Maxey and not Thybulle going to the Nuggets.

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[Ballerhogger]

DEN give Murray+Gordon and get Simmons+Curry+Thybulle
Curry, Thybulle, Porter, Simmons, Jokic -- Campazzo, Morris, Barton, Green, Jeff

MIN give Beasley+McDaniels and get Gordon
DLo, Edwards, Prince, Gordon, KAT -- Beverley, Nowell, Okogie, Vanderbilt, Naz

PHI give Simmons+Curry+Thybulle and get Murray+Beasley+McDaniels
Murray, Beasley, Green, Harris, Embiid -- Maxey, Korkmaz, McDaniels, Niang, Drummond

Hard see denver giving up on Murray and I don’t think 76ers want deal with Murray coming back

[zimpy27]

DEN give Murray+Gordon and get Simmons+Curry+Thybulle
Curry, Thybulle, Porter, Simmons, Jokic -- Campazzo, Morris, Barton, Green, Jeff

MIN give Beasley+McDaniels and get Gordon
DLo, Edwards, Prince, Gordon, KAT -- Beverley, Nowell, Okogie, Vanderbilt, Naz

PHI give Simmons+Curry+Thybulle and get Murray+Beasley+McDaniels
Murray, Beasley, Green, Harris, Embiid -- Maxey, Korkmaz, McDaniels, Niang, Drummond

Did the Nuggets extend Gordon yet? I know they were in talks with both MPJ and Gordon. If so, there could be some BYC issues.

I don't hate it tbh, but I'm not sold on Demver trading Murray for Simmons when they already have Gordon. Simmons is the better player, but I'm not sold that he's worth giving up Murray better.

At a minimum, it needs to be Maxey and not Thybulle going to the Nuggets.

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Yeah no point in Denver having Simmons, Gordon and MPJ. I did think about Maxey but thought that Thybulle has far more utility as an SG/SF that could swap between starters and bench with Barton.

[Darthlukey]

if the blazers werent hell bent on CJ+ Lillard id throw in cj for ben swap since both teams benefit from it.

Philly fans tend to crucify any deal centred around Ben for CJ

[jbk1234]

DEN give Murray+Gordon and get Simmons+Curry+Thybulle
Curry, Thybulle, Porter, Simmons, Jokic -- Campazzo, Morris, Barton, Green, Jeff

MIN give Beasley+McDaniels and get Gordon
DLo, Edwards, Prince, Gordon, KAT -- Beverley, Nowell, Okogie, Vanderbilt, Naz

PHI give Simmons+Curry+Thybulle and get Murray+Beasley+McDaniels
Murray, Beasley, Green, Harris, Embiid -- Maxey, Korkmaz, McDaniels, Niang, Drummond

Did the Nuggets extend Gordon yet? I know they were in talks with both MPJ and Gordon. If so, there could be some BYC issues.

I don't hate it tbh, but I'm not sold on Demver trading Murray for Simmons when they already have Gordon. Simmons is the better player, but I'm not sold that he's worth giving up Murray better.

At a minimum, it needs to be Maxey and not Thybulle going to the Nuggets.

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Yeah no point in Denver having Simmons, Gordon and MPJ. I did think about Maxey but thought that Thybulle has far more utility as an SG/SF that could swap between starters and bench with Barton.

If they're losing Murray, they've got to replace some of what he brings.

Thybulle is a bit superfluous with Simmons.
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[Texas Chuck]

if the blazers werent hell bent on CJ+ Lillard id throw in cj for ben swap since both teams benefit from it.

Philly fans tend to crucify any deal centred around Ben for CJ

As they absolutely should.

[Darthlukey]

if the blazers werent hell bent on CJ+ Lillard id throw in cj for ben swap since both teams benefit from it.

Philly fans tend to crucify any deal centred around Ben for CJ

As they absolutely should.

See, their reputation precedes them, even non-philly fans are all over it

[Texas Chuck]

Philly fans tend to crucify any deal centred around Ben for CJ

As they absolutely should.

See, their reputation precedes them, even non-philly fans are all over it

Not exactly sure what you are trying to say to me?

But CJ as the centerpiece of a Simmons offer is just terrible and I don't understand anyone being surprised that Philly fans(or people simply trying to look at the trade value from the outside) think its bad.

Just like Simmons as the centerpiece of a Dame offer is terrible. And Portland fans naturally hate it.

But its worse with CJ because we have a significant number of posters who think CJ for Simmons is reasonable whereas pretty much every Sixers fans understands Simmons can't return Dame unless Dame specifically demands Philly and they empty the bag.

But would you want CJ as the centerpiece of a Tatum offer? Or even Brown? I'm guessing you'd hate it too.

[Darthlukey]

As they absolutely should.

See, their reputation precedes them, even non-philly fans are all over it

Not exactly sure what you are trying to say to me?

But CJ as the centerpiece of a Simmons offer is just terrible and I don't understand anyone being surprised that Philly fans(or people simply trying to look at the trade value from the outside) think its bad.

Just like Simmons as the centerpiece of a Dame offer is terrible. And Portland fans naturally hate it.

But its worse with CJ because we have a significant number of posters who think CJ for Simmons is reasonable whereas pretty much every Sixers fans understands Simmons can't return Dame unless Dame specifically demands Philly and they empty the bag.

But would you want CJ as the centerpiece of a Tatum offer? Or even Brown? I'm guessing you'd hate it too.

Of course its terrible in a vacuum. In an ideal world, they wouldn't be trading Simmons; or if they were, they would be trading him from a position of power to maximise value. But they do appear to be trading him and they dont appear to be in a position of power. If Tatum/Brown demanded a trade and bitched out, I would be devastated that they just detonated their trade value and hurt, much like Simmon has for Philly. But they haven't so its hard to compare

[Roy The Natural]

As they absolutely should.

See, their reputation precedes them, even non-philly fans are all over it

Not exactly sure what you are trying to say to me?

But CJ as the centerpiece of a Simmons offer is just terrible and I don't understand anyone being surprised that Philly fans(or people simply trying to look at the trade value from the outside) think its bad.

Just like Simmons as the centerpiece of a Dame offer is terrible. And Portland fans naturally hate it.

But its worse with CJ because we have a significant number of posters who think CJ for Simmons is reasonable whereas pretty much every Sixers fans understands Simmons can't return Dame unless Dame specifically demands Philly and they empty the bag.

But would you want CJ as the centerpiece of a Tatum offer? Or even Brown? I'm guessing you'd hate it too.

Simmons is a significantly more flawed player with worse upside than both of those players. In all honesty, Simmons is a similarly bad contract to CJ when the false tag of upside is removed from the equation.

So much of Simmons current value is still wrapped up in a "potential" tag that straight up should not apply that some posters just can't help but severely overrate both his impact and value.

Simmons is more Demar DeRozan than he is Jayson Tatum. Impact stats paint him as a fringe all-star as does the eye test. For everything he brings on defense he mitigates it not only with piss poor half-court offense, but with the reality that as good as his defense may be, in the modern NBA the defensive impact is heavily mitigated by being able to stick a 1-way offense only player on him on defense. It's almost comical that the Hawks were able to just stick Gallinari out there on Simmons in crunch time. Whatever Simmons took away defensively, that's almost completely mitigated by the reality that just by being on the floor he allows Gallinari to go out there and just hang around the dunkers spot on defense without trying much on the defensive end.

Simmons is a high level role-played currently... it's just what he is. You can't rely on him to take over games or in pressure situations.

[Texas Chuck]

Give me patience, Lord.

[Roy The Natural]

Give me patience, Lord.

Why don't you pull out some objective evidence then. I'm not even going to argue that CJ should have the value that Simmons has... But Raptor, RPM, And LEBRON paint CJ and Simmons as extremely close in impact with 2 of the stats giving CJ a clear edge.

We can talk about eye tests all day, but in the end... That's all subjective and no one has any real proof that their eye test is more accurate than another persons.

I'm getting pretty tired of tired takes about CJ being some low level role player on a bad contract while Simmons gets glorified as some uber star on a team deal, all the while impact stats pretty universally paint them as the same caliber player.

What's clear is that there's a completely unfounded, perhaps even subconscious bias towards Simmons that is improperly assigning him growth potential based on age and not track record.

[Texas Chuck]

Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change....

[Roy The Natural]

Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change....

The argument of someone who has no argument... Cool stuff Chuck. Here's something for you, if you don't have anything useful to add to the debate then maybe you should think twice about posting. Your last 2 posts in my opinion border on circumventing forum rules about productive posting.

Neither post is adding anything whatsoever to the conversation and are far closer to mocking or ridiculing (unnecessarily I might add) then to engaging in any sort of productive debate.

If.you wanted to debate or argue anything I'm saying, then feel free. If your only response is the posting version of an eye roll, then maybe you should just refrain from being in this thread. I'm very close to certain that if I responded to your posts that were reasonable, but I disagree with, in the manner that you just did I'd get some sort of mod pushback or warning.

You may not like our debates, but I don't think your responses are anywhere close to acceptable from a.mod who should hold themselves to a standard of productive debate. Nothing I said is objectively wrong or lying.

Over the past 3 years CJ has had a higher impact on court than Simmons in both RPM and RAPTOR. PIPM/LEBRON favors Simmons. They're in the same realm in all 3 metrics. It's fair to point out that Simmons is being vastly overrated regarding impact. If you have not debate against those metrics, then don't engage.

[Texas Chuck]

I'd be careful mate. Because you aren't close to backseat moderating you are directly doing so....

I'm choosing not to engage with you on the topic of CJ because we've been down that road too many times and I can see from your posts that you aren't open to anything I might say and ironically are claiming to want an objective take while going with some pretty extreme subjective narrative.

You feel free to love and value CJ as much as you want. I'm never going to stop you. You do you.

[Roy The Natural]

I'd be careful mate. Because you aren't close to backseat moderating you are directly doing so....

I'm just choosing not to engage with you on the topic of CJ because we've been down that road too many times and I can see from your posts that you aren't open to anything I might say and ironically are claiming to want an objective take while going with some pretty extreme subjective narrative.

You feel free to love and value CJ as much as you want. I'm never going to stop you. You do you.

Well, I believe the mods need to follow their own rules. Do what you have to do. I think you clearly know that both your passive aggressive responses were not acceptable.

Not engaging is not posting. That's not what you did. I don't think it's fair at all. I've seen and been involved in getting slammed by mods on this board for unproductive posting. If you want to engage... Engage... If an eye roll to a post that clearly isn't a troll post is all you've got, then I think it's 110% fair to tell you that it isn't an acceptable response. If you want to delete our posts and take this forum rules talk offline I'm more than willing.

I'm not a troll. You know I'm not a troll. You may not agree with my views, but treating.me as a troll is both disrespectful and uncalled for. Your responses were both in that.realm.in my opinion. I disagree with you all the time, but I never demean you as a poster by not taking your views seriously, I disagree vehemently with your views, but I give you the respect.of debating them.

Frankly I'm getting a bit tired of the same courtesy not being reciprocated.